Wavedash - DISCONFIRMED!

[Eaode]

Why do some people have the illusion that WD affects the balance so much? "OH if they balance it with this in mind then it'sn ot balanced for the people that can't do it"

You could say that for anything. Sheik is completely imbalanced to people who don't DI.


You can't use implementation of a skill (or lack thereof) as a barrier to balance.

 

[BananaNut]

Hey, if wavedasing is out, it's not a actuall bad thing. We can find new ways to stratagize, and besides, the teirs might be more balanced.

 

[Mikagami]

I can wavedash and such, but is wavedashing really the core of being a pro? I think not.

 

[The_Famous_SK]

I always thought WD was gay anyway.

 

[Aeramis]

Lmao this thread = ******** phail and maybe the casual troll -.- Someone lock this garbage.

On topic, at 1:50 with Diddy doesn't mean a **** thing... In no way did that prove anything at all about wavedashing...

 

[Mikagami]

I always thought WD was gay anyway.

Wavedashing has sexual orientation? That's a really mature comment.

 

[Zombie Lucille Ball]

lol worst thread ever

also: mario airdodges diagonally in a vid.

 

[ShortFuse]

lol worst thread ever

also: mario airdodges diagonally in a vid.

yes I know all that. I have all the videos and we checked everything. it's based on momentum. There are 4 dodges we have. Mario, Yoshi, Link and Diddy. It's easy to just say "wrong!" and not care about the fact we've been going at this for days with 20 pages of discussion on the other thread. and who do you think found the yoshi, link and diddy air-dodges and posted them. I did.

 

[The_Famous_SK]

I used "gay" in the way that most people use the word "gay" unless they're talking about marriage. It's weak, pansy-ish, and it makes life suck for everyone else who has to deal with it. And again, I don't mean that about homosexuals. Just gay wavedashing.

And as for maturity... 1) We're on the internet, so goodbye to that. and 2) This game is rated E, as in, FOR KIDS. So in a forum ON THE INTERNET about a game FOR KIDS, why would you even start to expect maturity? Don't you know this is where 30 year olds go to act like a kid again?

 

[$ick]

Lol soo many people with 40 posts trashing on WDing... I personally think it will suck if WDing is gone, and the auto l-cancel thing is pretty lame too. If a fighting game isn't competitive, it isn't really fun... =/ Lol maybe I'll just main Peach and float cancel bairs to dsmash, or just spam dair with falco/fox till shields break, missle cancel all day with Samus, this game is gonna be interesting...

 

[Lies_and_Truth]

i (sort of) confirmed it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7bKxtBwSAk

 

[Sculelos]

Lol soo many people with 40 posts trashing on WDing... I personally think it will suck if WDing is gone, and the auto l-cancel thing is pretty lame too. If a fighting game isn't competitive, it isn't really fun... =/ Lol maybe I'll just main Peach and float cancel bairs to dsmash, or just spam dair with falco/fox till shields break, missle cancel all day with Samus, this game is gonna be interesting...

Dude Brawl will still have all the special moves and many advanced tactics without those things anyways, I played N64 and Melee without wavedashing for years, even now that I started using it a little while ago I'm still confident in my ability to play without it.

 

[bluekitsune13]

Dude Brawl will still have all the special moves and many advanced tactics without those things anyways, I played N64 and Melee without wavedashing for years, even now that I started using it a little while ago I'm still confident in my ability to play without it.

So true. I can actually wavedash myself, but I just don't like doing it. I think that the game is more fun without wavedashing.

 

[Conformal_Invariance]

If you replaced every single post with DURR HURR HURR repeatedly, there would be no difference.

I am neither happy nor sad that wavedashing is out.

There is nothing that can be done.

It will be worked around as necessary to excel into upper levels of skill.

also DURR HURR HURR DURR? DURR HURR HURR HURR HURR DURR DURR HURR

 

[Sculelos]

i (sort of) confirmed it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7bKxtBwSAk

Thats just sliding because of the forward momentum, I think called wavelanding or something.

Still yay for forward wavesliding in the game!

And YAY for the removal of wavedashing as it was in Melee, I am much more excited about being able to jump and use my special moves in the air without becoming vulnerable.

And still I'm sure dash dancing, moonwalking, fast falling, dodging, crawling, short hopping and shield grabbing will still be in the game which comprises a large amount of my meta-game.

 

[ShortFuse]

wavelanding/sliding is not disconfirmed but wavedashing is. mario's bAir causes you to slide a few feet when you hit the ground at the right angle.

 

[Xanderous]

Wavedashing has sexual orientation? That's a really mature comment.

Dude, come on. Your comment is even more immature. Nobody thinks that's clever.

 

[Mikagami]

Dude, come on. Your comment is even more immature. Nobody thinks that's clever.

I'm immature because I pointed out something that doesn't contribute to the topic productively?

Great logic there, buddy.

 

[Wyvern]

Why do some people have the illusion that WD affects the balance so much? "OH if they balance it with this in mind then it'sn ot balanced for the people that can't do it"

You could say that for anything. Sheik is completely imbalanced to people who don't DI.


You can't use implementation of a skill (or lack thereof) as a barrier to balance.

The difference is that forcing all players to wavedash drastically changes the kind of game that Smash is, much moreso than DI. Smash is a series based primarily on its simplistic controls. Anyone who picks up a controller is supposed to be immediately capable of performing all the fundamentals of the game. Getting GOOD at doing those simple things, knowing when and how to use them, is what the game is supposed to be about. SHUFFLing is a perfect example of this. Short hopping is an incredibly simple maneuver with many different applications, as are aerial attacks, and as is fast falling. L-canceling is a single button press at the end which serves only to augment the previous maneuvers and help it flow better. It is composed of simple techniques, all of which are also useful in isolation, which are cleverly strung together.

Wavedashing is a whole other beast. The final result has nothing to do with its components. It requires almost frame-perfect timing to do it...not just to do it optimally, but to see it happen at all. Really, it's only a small step away from the combos in other fighting games, which emphasize memorization and timing rather than cleverness and ingenuity. If wavedashing as it was in Melee existed in Brawl, then the characters would have to be balanced around it, and balancing the characters around wavedashing is acknowledging that wavedashing is the only right way to play. It would be like a bait and switch...putting forth Smash as a series founded on simplicity, and then telling players "Well yeah, that's how it is if you want to suck. To play right, you need to do all this stuff that you never signed up for and may not have fun doing." They would be throwing away the series' primary design philosophy and deliberately betraying the vast majority of their fans for the sake of the top few percent of players.

If they had turned wavedashing into a new base maneuver with an appropriate control scheme (like diagonal-down while pressing L/R, analogous to dodging), that would have been fine (though it may still have taken the game in a direction the developers weren't quite comfortable with). If they had found some way to make wavedashing affect all characters equally such that it wouldn't affect character balance that took place without considering it, that would even have been fine (though impossible under the physics engine, I suppose). But if it came down to an ultimatum between keeping Melee's exact wavedashing and removing it outright, its removal was really the only rational option that a developer could make. You as an individual might not be happy with it, but as developers, they did what had to be done for the sake of the game as a whole.

 

[gnosis]

I suspected waveshining would be changed in Brawl, and found they did that by making Fox's shine knock other characters down regardless of their weight.

I find it strange, though, that they would remove wavedashing yet still put in that change to Fox's shine. I guess it makes it so any character can edge tech it now, though. Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced wavedashing is gone; we'll see tomorrow though.

And to the post above me, saying that wavedashing is too hard and technical for smash while SHFFLing is fine and dandy... LOL. First off, they are both logical outcomes of doing a set of loosely connected actions. Wavedashing has two actions, Shffling has four. They both have similary strict timing, but Shffling has more instances of this timing (with wavedashing, you just have to wait until your jump frames are over; shuffling requires you to wait until your upwards momentum has stopped to fast fall, and also hit L/R in a small frame window). Wavedashing doesn't require you to move your fingers, just press the buttons they rest on, while Shffling does require movement (from y/x to A/C-stick, and the control stick from the direction of the attack/neutral position to down).

Thus, SHFFLing is more technical, and anyone who can do both would probably agree. Wavedashing is extremely easy if you know what you're supposed to be doing. In fact, it's only slightly different than the Wii Remote's method of smash attacks, a direction + two buttons. Wavedashing just adds a slight, easily learned pause in-between the two button presses.

SHFFLing is also a lot more necessary to being good at Smash; you can wavedash hardly ever and still reach the top of Smash, but if you don't SHFFL, it's unlikely you'll ever be any good.

So if your philosophy of Smash design is correct, that is, that there should be no technical barriers between the best and worst players, then anyone who knows how competitive Smash is played would know that SHFFLing would get the axe long before wavedashing. It's more technical and more integral than wavedashing.

But who knows, maybe it did.

 

[Xanderous]

I'm immature because I pointed out something that doesn't contribute to the topic productively?

Great logic there, buddy.

You know that isn't what I meant. Gay isn't exclusively homosexual anymore, just like "cool" doesn't mean cold and "radical" doesn't mean you're going to bomb the WTC.

It's just slang. Let it go.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

mabye a new tehcnique shinesparking?(lol if not a technigeu mabye a exclusive abilities to samus like pit has 5 jumps and glide.)

 

[shanus]

I suspected waveshining would be changed in Brawl, and found they did that by making Fox's shine knock other characters down regardless of their weight.

I find it strange, though, that they would remove wavedashing yet still put in that change to Fox's shine. I guess it makes it so any character can edge tech it now, though. Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced wavedashing is gone; we'll see tomorrow though.

And to the post above me, saying that wavedashing is too hard and technical for smash while SHFFLing is fine and dandy... LOL. First off, they are both logical outcomes of doing a set of loosely connected actions. Wavedashing has two actions, Shffling has four. They both have similary strict timing, but Shffling has more instances of this timing (with wavedashing, you just have to wait until your jump frames are over; shuffling requires you to wait until your upwards momentum has stopped to fast fall, and also hit L/R in a small frame window). Wavedashing doesn't require you to move your fingers, just press the buttons they rest on, while Shffling does require movement (from y/x to A/C-stick, and the control stick from the direction of the attack/neutral position to down).

Thus, SHFFLing is more technical, and anyone who can do both would probably agree. Wavedashing is extremely easy if you know what you're supposed to be doing. In fact, it's only slightly different than the Wii Remote's method of smash attacks, a direction + two buttons. Wavedashing just adds a slight, easily learned pause in-between the two button presses.

SHFFLing is also a lot more necessary to being good at Smash; you can wavedash hardly ever and still reach the top of Smash, but if you don't SHFFL, it's unlikely you'll ever be any good.

So if your philosophy of Smash design is correct, that is, that there should be no technical barriers between the best and worst players, then anyone who knows how competitive Smash is played would know that SHFFLing would get the axe long before wavedashing. It's more technical and more integral than wavedashing.

But who knows, maybe it did.

Thank god for reasonable posters in this thread, I swear 90% of the people who post in the general brawl forums have no common sense whatsoever nowadays. Wavedashing is by no means critical, but it adds an extra level of detail into the game by introducing new and more advanced mindgames into the equation. The people who complain about wavedashing as being difficult havent sat down for 2 hours to take the time to learn it. It isn't hard, get over it.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Wavedash isn't the pro smashers's metagame.

The problem here isn't that Wavedash is out, but changing the whole Air Dodge system.
The game becomes more predictable; less options, obvious choices.

(sorry for my eng.)

 

[ShortFuse]

SHFFLing is also a lot more necessary to being good at Smash; you can wavedash hardly ever and still reach the top of Smash, but if you don't SHFFL, it's unlikely you'll ever be any good.

So if your philosophy of Smash design is correct, that is, that there should be no technical barriers between the best and worst players, then anyone who knows how competitive Smash is played would know that SHFFLing would get the axe long before wavedashing. It's more technical and more integral than wavedashing.

But who knows, maybe it did.

i was upset but now i'm glad l-cancel is "automatic". SHAFF is a lot easier to pull off. I had most trouble mastering L-cancel since it's sometimes per move. Some move have different timings. I can LC Marth's nAir near 100% and fAir around 80%. But dAir, I still don't know the timing too well. It's around 25%. I have very good strategy and mindgames but sometimes lack the technical skills and timing to do what I want. I WANT to L-Cancel the dAir into rolltowards to dash dance into pivot grab, but I LC the dAir wrong and roll too late and get chained into a combo. I'd worry less about timing. As for wavedashing, no excuse if you can't learn it with Marth or Mario. I would have hope it stayed and the characters were balanced with WD in mind, depending on range and speed. Slow Speed and Short Ranged characters would have long wavedashes while fast and long ranged would have short ones. Marth wavedashing into tipper does move him higher in the tier when he was good already. Speed + Range + Long WD? too much

 

[Sundown]

Thread starter is just a stupid imbecile... some people have been to nice to you by just calling you menally ********.

 

[shanus]

Thread starter is just a stupid imbecile... some people have been to nice to you by just calling you menally ********.

quoted before the edit

 

[ShortFuse]

Thread starter is just a stupid imbecile... some people have been to nice to you by just calling you menally ********.

Stage #1 and #2

 

[Kimosabae]

I'm confused. How does this illuminate anything when DK is CLEARLY Air Dodging vertically into the ground?


-SynikaL
(from a high point, at that)

 

[Mr.GAW]

This sucks.

The fact that wavedashing is out as we know it, and the fact that there is no directional airdodging.

 

[BrTarolg]

to be honest if you cant beat noobs without a wavedash anyway that just makes you a scrub..

i look forward to adapting to all the new adv techs that will come in brawl and will capitalize on those instead

 

[gnosis]

I'm much more convinced by the Link airdodge than the Diddy one; it looks like he actually starts it before he starts falling, stalls, and then starts falling, all during the air dodge's invincibility frames.

That you couldn't do in Melee, while the Diddy one could easily be passed off as just how a diagonal air dodge looks in Brawl's new physics or whatever.

I'll still cross my fingers for E for All =/.

 

[Dacvak]

Dammit, I just realized I'm in stage 4.

Stage 1 - Denial:
"Hah, this doesn't show sh*t. That guy was probably just holding in the exact direction he was moving when he dodged. Same with all the other videos, too. Nice try, though. I think I'll just keep Wavedashing."

Stage 2 - Anger:
"F*CK. You've GOT to be f*cking KIDDING ME!!! This is so f*cking stupid, the game is going to be completely f*cking changed, and it's going to be EASY and... DAMMIT. I can't freaking believe I can't even directional air dodge! F*CKING STUPID."

Stage 3 - Bargaining:
"Well... I guess it's out. Maybe... Maybe Sakurai will put in the replay mode I really want. Yeah, that's all I really want from Brawl anymore. You know what? I'm completely cool with WDing being out as long as there's a replay movie mode. Please, if you add a way to save the matches, I'll be ok with WDing being out. Please do it!"

Stage 4 - Depression:
"....I cna't believe it's gone. Man... and there will probably be no replay mode. This is going to put me in a terrible position, because I'm not going to want to move onto Brawl, but no one else will play Melee with me. Oh geez, this just sucks. Why, Sakurai? Why did you do this? Why is the game so much easier now? Sweet-spotting every up-B onto an edge? Jumping after a dodge? I don't understand why you would do this.... I... just can't believe it...."


I'll let you know when I hit stage 5. =(

~Dac

[Edit] Lulz, my post count can not be found by the internet. 404'd.

 

[Wyvern]

And to the post above me, saying that wavedashing is too hard and technical for smash while SHFFLing is fine and dandy... LOL. First off, they are both logical outcomes of doing a set of loosely connected actions. Wavedashing has two actions, Shffling has four. They both have similary strict timing, but Shffling has more instances of this timing (with wavedashing, you just have to wait until your jump frames are over; shuffling requires you to wait until your upwards momentum has stopped to fast fall, and also hit L/R in a small frame window). Wavedashing doesn't require you to move your fingers, just press the buttons they rest on, while Shffling does require movement (from y/x to A/C-stick, and the control stick from the direction of the attack/neutral position to down).

Thus, SHFFLing is more technical, and anyone who can do both would probably agree. Wavedashing is extremely easy if you know what you're supposed to be doing. In fact, it's only slightly different than the Wii Remote's method of smash attacks, a direction + two buttons. Wavedashing just adds a slight, easily learned pause in-between the two button presses.

SHFFLing is also a lot more necessary to being good at Smash; you can wavedash hardly ever and still reach the top of Smash, but if you don't SHFFL, it's unlikely you'll ever be any good.

So if your philosophy of Smash design is correct, that is, that there should be no technical barriers between the best and worst players, then anyone who knows how competitive Smash is played would know that SHFFLing would get the axe long before wavedashing. It's more technical and more integral than wavedashing.

But who knows, maybe it did.

You're missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter how difficult the end result of SHFFLing is to perform. What matters is the fact that it is nothing more than the result of its simple components. Shorthopping and its uses are easy to grasp. Aerial attacks and its uses are easy to grasp. Fastfalling and its uses are easy to grasp. L-canceling is a little more out there, I suppose, but it's a single button press that makes the maneuver better without fundamentally changing how it works. These are all mechanics which, in and of themselves, are necessary for building pretty much any kind of fighting style. SHUFFLing is just one of a myriad of capabilites that they create. That's what the game is about...building incredibly simple mechanics into interesting battles. Attacking after a short hop is one thing you can do. Attacking after a full jump is another useful use for the same mechanics. All of these base mechanics are fundamental to the game, and inherent in everything you could possibly do.

Wavedashing does not work like that. Wavedashing is not a clever application of the mechanics of jumping and dodging. The result of wavedashing has nothing whatsoever to do with its components. It's a weird bit of unexpected behavior that arises from abusing the physics engine in a certain way. You can combine jumping, attacking, and falling into an infinite number of possible attacks, approaches, and responses. With wavedashing, either you wavedash or you don't. It's a comparitively complicated frame-sensitive button combination which has a completely unique result, which has nothing to do with the game's basic abilities.

I feel like you're going to misinterpret this...how else can I explain it? SHUFFLing isn't described as a single "Y-A-Down-L" combo which exists completely for its own sake. It's described as jumping, then attacking, then fastfalling, then L-canceling. Those components can be used in many different combos and situations, although they always do the same thing (Y makes you jump no matter where you use it, tapping down makes you fastfall in midair regardless of why you're up there, etc.). Wavedashing isn't simply a jump followed by a dodge. It's "Press the jump button, but don't jump. Instead, press the dodge button, even though you don't intend to dodge. The result is this completely new ability completely independent from jumping or airdodging." SHUFFLing fits into the basic design philosophy of Smash because it's nothing more than a clever application of very simple abilities into something very useful. Wavedashing is an abuse of the physics engine that circumvents the abilities the game was built on. That's why accepting it into the pantheon of intended abilities is not the obvious course of action you seem to view it as. If the developers include it as part of the intended playstyle (the predicted playstyle the game is going to be balanced around), then the Smash series ceases to be about simplicity like it was supposed to and starts to turn into a whole different kind of game. That's not the kind of game the developers have in mind. That's not the kind of game they want to create.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Holy **** brawl is looking to be one giant suckfest.

 

[Tony_]

Explain to me how it will balance the game more. I understand if you don't like wavedashing, but don't pull things out of your *** and state them as facts. I hate that directional airdodging is gone instead of wavedash really (I use Link and CF, both not that big on wavedashing).

Wavedashing made certain character "un-useable" meaning they were crap. This also nerfs alot of characters while beefing up others.

tl;dr, Brawl will be VERY balanced unless a someone abuses a physics engine again.

 

[nublet06]

wow thats really cool. unless they change luigi hes going to be worthless without wavedashing.

 

[Zek]

I'm confused. How does this illuminate anything when DK is CLEARLY Air Dodging vertically into the ground?


-SynikaL
(from a high point, at that)

He was already falling down. When he dodges, he continues falling exactly like he was before with no new momentum generated whatsoever. This effect has been seen multiple times in the videos so far. The difference here is that he was DI'ing to the right at the same time, which means he was holding the right stick while he airdodged but his dodge was still "neutral." This is hard proof that there is no directional air dodge in Brawl.

 

[KirbySSB]

Wavedashing made certain character "un-useable" meaning they were crap.

that's not true at all. mewtwo had a good wavedash but he still sucks. Meanwhile peach has a tiny *** little wavedash and she's really good

 

[Zauron]

The difference is that forcing all players to wavedash drastically changes the kind of game that Smash is, much moreso than DI. Smash is a series based primarily on its simplistic controls. Anyone who picks up a controller is supposed to be immediately capable of performing all the fundamentals of the game. Getting GOOD at doing those simple things, knowing when and how to use them, is what the game is supposed to be about. SHUFFLing is a perfect example of this. Short hopping is an incredibly simple maneuver with many different applications, as are aerial attacks, and as is fast falling. L-canceling is a single button press at the end which serves only to augment the previous maneuvers and help it flow better. It is composed of simple techniques, all of which are also useful in isolation, which are cleverly strung together.

Wavedashing is a whole other beast. The final result has nothing to do with its components. It requires almost frame-perfect timing to do it...not just to do it optimally, but to see it happen at all. Really, it's only a small step away from the combos in other fighting games, which emphasize memorization and timing rather than cleverness and ingenuity. If wavedashing as it was in Melee existed in Brawl, then the characters would have to be balanced around it, and balancing the characters around wavedashing is acknowledging that wavedashing is the only right way to play. It would be like a bait and switch...putting forth Smash as a series founded on simplicity, and then telling players "Well yeah, that's how it is if you want to suck. To play right, you need to do all this stuff that you never signed up for and may not have fun doing." They would be throwing away the series' primary design philosophy and deliberately betraying the vast majority of their fans for the sake of the top few percent of players.

If they had turned wavedashing into a new base maneuver with an appropriate control scheme (like diagonal-down while pressing L/R, analogous to dodging), that would have been fine (though it may still have taken the game in a direction the developers weren't quite comfortable with). If they had found some way to make wavedashing affect all characters equally such that it wouldn't affect character balance that took place without considering it, that would even have been fine (though impossible under the physics engine, I suppose). But if it came down to an ultimatum between keeping Melee's exact wavedashing and removing it outright, its removal was really the only rational option that a developer could make. You as an individual might not be happy with it, but as developers, they did what had to be done for the sake of the game as a whole.

Well said, that's what I've been arguing for months now as to why Wavedashing would be removed. And no, I'm not a Wavedash hater - I main Luigi at tournaments! I Wavedash with the best of them. I just knew it was likely going to be removed, and hopefully replaced with other techniques that are similar that everyone can do - such as the faster dodges we've noticed. I've done extensive studies on the design and code behind Melee, and used my research to help make the fighting components of my own games much better, and I realized long ago that Wavedashing was unlikely to reappear in Brawl for the reasons stated above.