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Wavedash - DISCONFIRMED!

Discussion in 'Brawl General Discussion' started by ShortFuse, Oct 17, 2007.

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  1. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    It's gone guys. It's gone. We have tackled it and I found the final convincing video, the stake in the heart. It will be missed.

    I started the Advanced Tactics - Confirm/Disconfirm thread and I found it. It's gone.

    From http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=3069009&postcount=326
    E for All will just the final nail in the coffin. Prepare for bad news. Oh well, it's not like all our skills were based on it. We still have:

    • Weaving
    • Overshooting
    • Turtling
    • Throttling
    • Mindgames
    • Intimidation Tactics
    • Perfect-Block Countering
    • Projectile Reflecting
    • Chain-grabbing
    • Edgehog
    • Shield Grabbing
    • SHFF (since L-Cancel seems unnecessary)
    • Tech-chasing (if DashDance is in)
    • Crouch-Cancelling (maybe)

    to conquer the newbs... for another 5+ years. :)


    Leave your eulogies here.
  2. LavisFiend

    LavisFiend Smash Lord

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    ....

    So where's the video?
  3. Kabyk-Greenmyst

    Kabyk-Greenmyst Smash Lord

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    What in all that is good and just are you talking about?!
    You sir, are what we call "mentally challenged".

    Mic, just do your thing.
  4. Exorcist

    Exorcist Smash Journeyman

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    Quick! Someone kiss me before the thread closes!
  5. SolidSonic

    SolidSonic Smash Ace

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    n.o.t.f.u.n.n.y.a.n.y.m.o.r.e.

    j.u.s.t.s.t.o.p.
  6. LavisFiend

    LavisFiend Smash Lord

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    but you have no lower mandible! DX
  7. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    I wish it was that easy. It's gone guys. I'm not trolling. I just re-editted the post. This makes Ike USELESS to me since he'll be so lag heavy. :(

    I guess ZSS and Link for me
  8. Zauron

    Zauron Smash Journeyman

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    Actually I'm pretty sure L-Cancelling is gone too.
  9. Revak

    Revak Smash Apprentice

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    You make a solid point from what I can see. There really is no extra speed to give that sliding "dash." Although it will still be completely confirmed/deconfirmed at E4A.
  10. Zantetsu

    Zantetsu Smash Master

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    *Gets close*...*SLAP* OWNED!

    HURRY SLAP ME BACK BEFORE TEH THREAD CLOSES!
  11. Salaad

    Salaad Smash Ace

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    NOOOOO *has to go back to casual play?*
  12. Chepe

    Chepe Smash Lord

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    Yeah, Diddy Kong moving to the right and still air dodging mostly downwards is convincing enough to me. Though the Mario, Yoshi, and Sonic momentum dodges already had me sure that wavedashing is gone. Watch though, even when the pros report this from E for All, some will still not believe...
  13. Ban Heim

    Ban Heim Smash Ace

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    They're making Brawl so easy now...it's kind of depressing. Retarded noobs are going to be able to perform the same maneuvers as pros with only a bit of practicing. They seem to be making everything automatic just so some child can feel good about being able to “l-cancel” (lolz, look @me! i jump attack and lcancelll w/o trying lolz) and auto-tether.

    This game seems to be made of more and more suck every time I visit this forum. It'll still be good and I'll still get it, but I'm going to miss the complexity and metagame of Melee which Brawl seems to have none of.
  14. Salaad

    Salaad Smash Ace

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    EXACTLY! but Brawl will still be awesome in it's own way.
  15. _X_

    _X_ Smash Lord

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    "They" say L-canceling's in... but if Nintendo balance the characters properly then it shouldn't be a problem... in fact it'll be better.

    More damage = More lag (at least it should be)

    Then again, our advanced Techs are what pushed us away form the no0bs.... I'm sure an entire forum full of nerds will come up with something, right?

    And BTW boys, at this point we know little to nothing about the game other than random, unconfirmed info... but let's not get our hopes up to much.
  16. Chepe

    Chepe Smash Lord

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    Thing is, we dont know yet whether Brawl has any other tricks that people will discover in time. People just cant imagine a game as complex as Melee that doesnt play exactly like Melee, I know, but we havent played yet...
  17. gamelover15

    gamelover15 Smash Apprentice

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    You can't really deconfirm this yet. They haven't implemented everything into the demo.

    One thing is I haven't seen anyone footstool jump nor have I see any airdodging. We'll just have to wait til they show airdodging for there even being a chance for wavedashing.
  18. Ban Heim

    Ban Heim Smash Ace

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    They've shown air dodging and footstool jumps in the videos so far.
  19. Chepe

    Chepe Smash Lord

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    They HAVE shown air dodging, AND Footstool Jump. Mario footstools Samus in one video (a CPU Mario at that), and Mario, Yoshi, Link, and Sonic have all been seen air dodging at one point or another...
  20. Kabyk-Greenmyst

    Kabyk-Greenmyst Smash Lord

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    Firstly, Salaad PLEASE remove your sig, it makes my face scrunch up in anger.

    Second, I don't know how WD works in detail (i use it very much tho) but wouldn't you still be able to WD in some sense because, although you can't control the direction you move, the airdodge still moves you in a direction. So wouldn't you just need more/less directional influencing in your controls for WD'ing?

    Again, I don't know, I just abuse.
  21. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    Smash64 was great and played nothing like Melee when you get technical with both. I think we'll get technical with Brawl just like we did with Melee. Okay, maybe not as much but still. But have you guys seen how short the recovery time is after attacks. If that's not l-cancelled and l-cancel is even faster... i'd shudder to see somebody play as a SHFFL'ing MetaKnight. pure destruction.

    we checked it all. i've going through all the videos, frame by frame. we found incredible things. but wavedashing is out.

    the game still has 5 months. the countdown is no longer how long till Brawl, it's how long we have to convince Sakurai to put WaveDashing back in (starting with directional air-dodge). as of this day, it's out. but that doesn't mean he can't put it back in.
  22. Salaad

    Salaad Smash Ace

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    Not now chief, I'm in the ****ing zone.

    xD maybe later.
  23. Xengri

    Xengri Smash Journeyman

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    The Air dodging physics isn't something that they could just leave to implant for "later".

    Wavedashing and L canceling ( I'm still not so sure on this one) are gone.

    WE just have to let go of Melee...

    Somebody hold me :(
  24. Pluvia's other account

    Pluvia's other account Smash Master

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    I'm exhausted now.

    I just want to wait till tomorrow.
  25. Zek

    Zek Smash Ace

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    There is no reason whatsoever that they would disable directional airdodging just for the demo. I mean, come on. Face it guys, it's gone.

    WDing is impossible without directional dodging because the source of the wavedash speed is the speed that is generated by dodging, i.e. that jerk in one direction. If dodging no longer creates any of its own momentum, wavedashing is impossible. You won't even be able to hit the ground fast enough to slide.
  26. Rx-

    Rx- A.K.A. Disafter

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    The links didn't lead to anything... there is still no clear evidence of WD deconfirmed, and now you are a troll. Quit ftw.
  27. Ban Heim

    Ban Heim Smash Ace

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    Denial ftl?
  28. Zauron

    Zauron Smash Journeyman

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    He's not a troll, its the truth. I don't know why the links didn't work for you.
  29. maxpower1227

    maxpower1227 Smash Lord

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    Amazing... all these "pros" waiting in the wings to test every single minute aspect of Brawl's metagame, and they're beaten to the punch by some guy who's never played the game before... >_>

    And people like Ban Heim: go cry me a river. I'm sick of the snobby elitism of the "pros" who seem to want some unsurmountable barrier to separate themselves from "pathetic noobs" who will never reach their level.

    You know what? If wavedashing is indeed gone, there will still be "pros" and "noobs" in Brawl. Strategy WILL develop using whatever system the game has in place. People can still learn when to use certain attacks, what moves can counter other moves, how to factor in the opponent's damage when stringing moves together in a combo, etc. There will be things to separate pros from the rest - they just might not be twitch button combinations this time around. DEAL WITH IT.



    * FWIW: I'm not jumping on the "wavedashing is gone" bandwagon yet. It might be. It might not be. The video looks convincing but you never know. Like I said, this guy had never even played the game before.
  30. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    give him time...

    The 5 Stages of Grief:
    1. Denial
    2. Anger
    3. Bargaining
    4. Depression
    5. Acceptance

    All I know is I'm on #4
  31. Pluvia's other account

    Pluvia's other account Smash Master

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    Lol, I said that same thing when we learnt about February 10th.
  32. Ban Heim

    Ban Heim Smash Ace

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    I've already made my peace with WDing being gone, so I have no idea why you picked me to unload your little rant on. But I do still want depth in a game and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I want more depth than just knowing what move to use when because even the simplest of fighters has that and a game like Brawl needs something else to set it (as well as the average and the dedicated players) apart.

    And it's not like I want to be better than everyone. There's no fun in being the best. I do want there to be things that set the good and the bad apart, but it's not like I want the "pathetic noobs" to never reach my level. That's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. The way I see it now, it seems like Brawl is trying to make everything very simple, and a simple game, while it may be fun for a while, will not last long simply because there is not enough to explore for someone who wants more out of it.

    I want to pick up Brawl, suck with it, then get good with the basics, then get good with advanced techniques and then work on perfecting them and incorporating them into my game. What I'm afraid will happen is I'll pick it up, suck at the start, then get used to the basics, and then the game will have nothing else after that.
  33. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    he's on stage #2
    i'm still on 4 :(
  34. Ban Heim

    Ban Heim Smash Ace

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    I think you're right.

    I was at 4 a while ago. I think I'm getting closer to 5. Hopefully Brawl will have other advanced techs that will play a large role in fights, which is the only thing helping me get to 5.
  35. kilroy

    kilroy Smash Journeyman

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    sweet. :) i don't want to get my hopes up yet, but this looks positive. :)

    as for those grieving, i'm sorry for your loss. but, hey, tomorrow's a brand new day, with all new techs to discover!
  36. Luke Groundwalker

    Luke Groundwalker Smash Lord

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    *****s on wavedashing's grave*
  37. NES n00b

    NES n00b Smash Master

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    Why should we care about a wavedashing topic, especially since we will get the definite confirmation in two or three days?

    I swear people. I wish I still had my spamming spirit, but I think I used it up. lol
  38. The Hypnotist

    The Hypnotist Smash Lord

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    Oh no, I'll have to change my sig...

    If this is true...

    Well, I'll find some other way to own some newbs.
  39. Zauron

    Zauron Smash Journeyman

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    I posted this in another thread but I think it applies here. Its something I've wanted to point out for a while now.

    It makes sense they'd nerf Wavedashing though, which is why I'm not surprised. I use it all the time (Luigi is my main after all!) but I knew it couldn't last. Here's my thoughts on it:

    1) The design of Smash that makes it so unique is that instead of focusing on the player's skill with doing a complex set of sequences with their controller, it focuses almost entirely on the metagame. Performing moves is easy - only 1 button! Its all about how you use those moves, positions, predictions, mindgames, and so on that make Smash unique. I wish more fighting games did this to be honest. WDing was a complex set of buttons not too dissimilar from the moves other fighting games have that involve multiple button presses with correct timing to do.

    Sakurai knew you could slide like that but probably did not think people would use it the way we do - he likely thought it was just a neat thing you'd do every once in a while, almost accidentally, while dodging an attack. When he realized how much it was being used, it started to mean that being good at the metagame was not enough, you had to have this technical skill to go with it to truly compete. To some players who could otherwise have the mindgames and metagame skill to be real pros, it was out of reach because they just could not master the finger dexterity for SHFFL'ing or WD'ing.

    However, he saw how people enjoyed these techniques. So, he removed them but changed things to make it less necessary - lower traction when landing from air attacks, much quicker dodges, automatic L-Cancelling, etc. Things that are similar to the advanced techniques but usable by everyone. Shifts the focus back to what made Smash great and unique in the first place - easy to do everything in it, but difficult to truly master the nuances of how every move interacts with every other move to outplay your opponent.

    With these, it maintains the whole design theory behind Smash - concentrate on using the moves your character has in the best situation, rather than having to learn complex button sequences in order to compete.

    2) Wi-Fi. If you know much about network latency coding in action games, things would be easier without L-Cancelling and complete control over dodge direction. Basically, the less control the player has to change a predictable motion suddenly, the harder it is to deal with latency. By air-dodging continuing your current momentum, prediction algorithms work better. By having a landed air attack have the same lag recovery time regardless of whether or not you pushed L, the algorithms work better. The less variation possible once the player has started a move, the easier it is to make it work smoothly over the network.

    I believe many of the simplifications are because of one or both of the above 2 reasons, including the change to air-dodging, L-Cancelling, auto-sweet-spotting, grabbing ledges that are behind you, auto-combo by holding A, homing tether recoveries, faster dodges, longer hit-stun on multi-hit moves (helps with the network stuff), nerf to double-jump cancelling, and so on.
  40. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse Smash Lord

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    Well, since wavedashing and l-cancelling is gone... bring back Marth!!!!! Ike can replace Roy but i want speed!
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