Villager Matchup Discussion Thread 1 - Sheik

[SoniCraft]

Alright Villagers, I think it's about time we started this MU thread thing, eh? To decide the first character we'll discuss I've created a poll for you guys to vote on. If there's overwhelming demand for another specific character, then we'll go with that one!

Now for the actual thread, I advise we follow a structured format for our posts instead of just saying whatever comes to our mind. This helps us get a lot more thoughts on a lot more topics about the MU. I suggest we follow a format that goes something like this:

1. Neutral game - How should we approach this character, if we should approach at all? What moves should we use to get in, and what should we watch out for?
2. Edgeguarding - How do we keep this character off the stage and eventually out of the blastzone? What recovery options should we look out for and try to cover? Is the tree a better idea, or the bowling ball? Or just going out there and nairing them to death? Luckily our character has quite a few options for this.
3. Recovering - Usually recovering with Villager is pretty self-explanatory, but what moves should we watch out for just in case? Would getting into the habit of using lloid before Up-B put us in a bad spot?
4. Stage Choice - What stages do you prefer vs. this character? What should we strike, and what should we counterpick to? If we don't have Battlefield or Dreamland, what's a good alternative?
5. Matchup Ratio - How favorable or unfavorable do you believe this MU is for us? Do you think it could change in the future, for better or for worse? Use the first number to indicate how favorable it is for Villager and the second to indicate how favorable it is for the other character(For example, the DDD MU could be 65:35 Villager's favor). Please stick to ratios in increments of 5, no 63:37 or anything like that.
6. Anything else you'd like to add! Feel free to talk about your own experiences with this MU. Cite videos that could demonstrate your points well, or just add anything that can't be said in the above sections.

How does this sound? Of course, after you make an initial post like this, you can respond to other people and talk about the MU normally. Or if you really don't believe you have much to contribute, feel free to just ask questions or post normally! Let's work together to make these threads as productive as possible, and hopefully we can use them to add to a MU directory of sorts.

But first: the poll!

 

[SoniCraft]

Alright. As voted on by the majority of voters, Sheik will be the topic of this first MU discussion thread! Feel free to begin discussing. I will use this post as a possible summary of ideas and strategies once we discuss for an adequate amount of time.

 

[Volya]

Hah, we FINALLY start a "meaningful" mu discussion to create our matchup chart.
I voted for Mario but i think we need a logical order to do theses discussion, and not just going by the most wanted character. Idk how other character forum works

 

[SoniCraft]

Hah, we FINALLY start a "meaningful" mu discussion to create our matchup chart.
I voted for Mario but i think we need a logical order to do theses discussion, and not just going by the most wanted character. Idk how other character forum works

Well going by the most wanted character seems fairly logical to me. If lots of villagers are struggling with it, it could be a difficult MU. Besides, most people will have the most trouble with top tiers anyway, if that's what you had in mind for a logical order.

 

[JohnnyB]

Darn i ment to vote for Mario but i voted shiek by accident.

 

[Mtn64]

Went for Sheik but think it might be smart to just go in order of current tier list? Would probably just signify by itself what MUs villys are probably fighting the most.

 

[SoniCraft]

Went for Sheik but think it might be smart to just go in order of current tier list? Would probably just signify by itself what MUs villys are probably fighting the most.

What tier list? I don't think there's any definitive tier list for us to go by since they're all so subjective, especially since the game still needs to develop a lot. I say we just go by popular demand; that makes the most sense to me.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

This seems interesting, and as a villager main, I need to keep an eye on this tread

 

[Mtn64]

What tier list? I don't think there's any definitive tier list for us to go by since they're all so subjective, especially since the game still needs to develop a lot. I say we just go by popular demand; that makes the most sense to me.

Guess that makes sense.
I'll be around to put my input in the matchups.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I think sheik should be first because of her viability and usage

 

[MJG]

Sheik looks like the favorite here. Just voted.

 

[Wonderf]

Sheik looks like the favorite here. Just voted.

I wouldn't say she's a favourite...maybe most wanted.

 

[Mtn64]

I wouldn't say she's a favourite...maybe most wanted.

Doesn't that just mean the same thing? That she's the favorite to win the vote? The one everyone wants?

 

[MJG]

Yea basically what MTN said lol. Just waiting for other moves to be made and then I'll participate.

 

[Armistice]

Sheik or Fox

Sheik because obviously it's statistically the matchup we're going to see the most

Fox because I personally have a big problem with them as Villager and need some insight

 

[bortlicensplate]

I think ike should be on this list as well. With his recent buffs alot more players are using him and for me he is pretty hard to get past his nuetral game. Does anybody else think so too?

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Shiek, nice pick. easily the most common threat

 

[Myed]

Will we be taking customs into consideration during these discussions or will this be only focusing on the customless meta?

 

[Wonderf]

Will we be taking customs into consideration during these discussions or will this be only focusing on the customless meta?

I guess we should also have a vote on that too

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Will we be taking customs into consideration during these discussions or will this be only focusing on the customless meta?

Villager is a demigod with customs on. no bad matchup can stop the trippy tree

 

[Mtn64]

Will we be taking customs into consideration during these discussions or will this be only focusing on the customless meta?

Id rather not take into account customs until the last day or so of discussion if we have to. Villy with customs changes MUs soooo much.

 

[Darklink401]

Since Sheik won, I'll be imparting my knowledge.

First, it's NECESSARY to keep a lead, no matter what. This may seem like common sense, but playing from behind against a good Sheik is something you DON'T wanna have to do.

That being said, I feel the MU isn't as bad as some people think, at least considering it's Sheik. We have a relatively easy time. We have a frame-3 Nair as a combo-breaker, we're short and quite heavy, lloid stops needles, and we kill her quite early.

 

[SoniCraft]

Will we be taking customs into consideration during these discussions or will this be only focusing on the customless meta?

Since Customs Off is currently the mainstream meta, we'll mainly discuss the MU with no customs considered. Maybe later on we can consider how the MU would change with Customs On.

 

[Wonderf]

So are we discussing the Sheik Match-up in this thread?

 

[SoniCraft]

So are we discussing the Shiek Match-up in this thread?

Yes.

Also, I would like to encourage everyone to try to adhere to the format I explained the OP if possible. Doing so will help create a more well-rounded discussion of the MU. Once I get back to a computer, I'll do so myself with my small input on the MU.

 

[SoniCraft]

Sheik. The most popular top tier in Smash 4 currently. Let's see if we can't learn a thing or two from this thread.

1. Neutral - Sheik is one of the best characters in the game for this stage of the game, outclassed only possibly by Diddy. One big reason is her needles. They disrupt the flow of combat for the other character, hindering his approach options and keeping him on the move. Luckily, Villager has lloid to defend against these and at the same time send our own disruptive projectile back. As Villager players, we all know how it goes once you launch that lloid, it's a huge mix-up game. I would watch out for surprise bouncing fishes over the lloid, and be mindful of those lagless aerials. Don't go for a punish unless you're positive it will hit.
2. Edgeguarding - Personally, I have no clue how we're supposed to keep this beast off the stage. I've heard from @Player-1 that you can use turnips to hit her somehow, but I'm helpless with this.
3. Recovering - You know the drill, lloid to cover you horizontally as you fall down, then up-b back to the ledge. I'm sure Sheik has some tricks we should look out for, but I can only think of Bouncing Fish at the moment.
4. Stage Choice - Ban Smashville. Just suck it up and do it, as much as you may not want to. The follow ups Sheik can get from that darn moving platform is stupid. I mean, if you're opponent knows what to ban against villager, you're probably never gonna play on a stage you prefer. I guess go for Lylat, Battlefield, and Dreamland if you can.
5. Matchup Ratio - I can't really say for sure, but I'm just gonna say 40:60. I don't think Villager gets bopped quite as hard by Sheik as some characters do, but it's still pretty rough. At the last Shockwave tournament, for some reason a player named Gyo decided to "counterpick" Sheik with Villager, and he did kind of alright. He seems to think it's very doable. I'll link the video below.
6.

Feel free to add your own categories to the list if you want! Some ideas I can think of are "Best KO Options", "What To Do on <stage here>", "Possible Combos".

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

Sheik. The most popular top tier in Smash 4 currently. Let's see if we can't learn a thing or two from this thread.

1. Neutral - Sheik is one of the best characters in the game for this stage of the game, outclassed only possibly by Diddy. One big reason is her needles. They disrupt the flow of combat for the other character, hindering his approach options and keeping him on the move. Luckily, Villager has lloid to defend against these and at the same time send our own disruptive projectile back. As Villager players, we all know how it goes once you launch that lloid, it's a huge mix-up game. I would watch out for surprise bouncing fishes over the lloid, and be mindful of those lagless aerials. Don't go for a punish unless you're positive it will hit.
2. Edgeguarding - Personally, I have no clue how we're supposed to keep this beast off the stage. I've heard from @Player-1 that you can use turnips to hit her somehow, but I'm helpless with this.
3. Recovering - You know the drill, lloid to cover you horizontally as you fall down, then up-b back to the ledge. I'm sure Sheik has some tricks we should look out for, but I can only think of Bouncing Fish at the moment.
4. Stage Choice - Ban Smashville. Just suck it up and do it, as much as you may not want to. The follow ups Sheik can get from that darn moving platform is stupid. I mean, if you're opponent knows what to ban against villager, you're probably never gonna play on a stage you prefer. I guess go for Lylat, Battlefield, and Dreamland if you can.
5. Matchup Ratio - I can't really say for sure, but I'm just gonna say 40:60. I don't think Villager gets bopped quite as hard by Sheik as some characters do, but it's still pretty rough. At the last Shockwave tournament, for some reason a player named Gyo decided to "counterpick" Sheik with Villager, and he did kind of alright. He seems to think it's very doable. I'll link the video below.
6.

Feel free to add your own categories to the list if you want! Some ideas I can think of are "Best KO Options", "What To Do on <stage here>", "Possible Combos".

Great job on this, the only thing I can think of for edgeguarding is use llyod/slingshot for chip damage (cause there IS NO EDGEGUARDING SHIEK!). or count on the large hitbox on the tree, you might be able to meteor Shiek if you get a hard read on up b or your positioning is godlike

 

[Darklink401]

I disagree. I feel Villager is one of those characters that CAN edgeguard the likes of Sheik, Pika etc.

Also, getting the 1-frame regrab punish with nair, upair or dair is super easy, since they stay out so long.

Furthermore, I think 40:60 is stretching it. I think it's no worse than 45:55

 

[Kohak]

I'll let the rest of you discuss the other stuff about the matchup, but for me this one thing has been the most important tip I could give.

Lloid rocket turns into a pin cushion. It is so vital to always space appropriately and make your side b a shield more than a missle. Sheik gets way too much free damage by needle camping. You'll lose the lead, and we all know how bad fighting from behind is for Villager. Beware bouncing fish over Lloid, cause that works. Extra emphasis on spacing well.

 

[Mtn64]

So after going to a local I fought and won against two sheik players. Gonna put in my input.

I think one of the most important parts is covering Sheiks landings in neutral, especially FF FAirs. It's actually really easy spacing Sheik in neutral as Villager. Mainly the entire game will consist of pivot ftilts, turn around crouch dtilts, pivot grabs, lloid, sling, and uair. DAir helps if you can read BFish and are confident you can beat sheik from above, but personally I just respect it with shield. Remember she's a fast faller, so at early percents sending her into tech situation and jablocking is easy. Any run off Sweetspot BAir or Sweetspot BAir in general off a rising SH can do it relatively early, and if you can react or sure it will hit, you can follow up with NAir into Fsmash (assuming Sheik misses tech.)
Be sure to keep in mind sheiks UpB, at one point in the match I died at 89 to a Sheik who read I was going to lloid off stage. Bouncing fish poses a huge problem if sheik reads or reacts to Lloid as well, so be sure to only press it when Sheik is in hitstun, charging needles, or recovering.
Always find times to lloid, especially against needle-campy Sheiks. The fact lloid can wall them is huge.
For stages id recommend Battlefield, DL64, or FD. SmashVille is probably the first thing I'd ban.
Overall I used to think this MU was bad but I'm starting to change that opinion. I think its anywhere from Villy 45:55 Sheik to Villy 50:50 Sheik

 

[Darklink401]

So after going to a local I fought and won against two sheik players. Gonna put in my input.

I think one of the most important parts is covering Sheiks landings in neutral, especially FF FAirs. It's actually really easy spacing Sheik in neutral as Villager. Mainly the entire game will consist of pivot ftilts, turn around crouch dtilts, pivot grabs, lloid, sling, and uair. DAir helps if you can read BFish and are confident you can beat sheik from above, but personally I just respect it with shield. Remember she's a fast faller, so at early percents sending her into tech situation and jablocking is easy. Any run off Sweetspot BAir or Sweetspot BAir in general off a rising SH can do it relatively early, and if you can react or sure it will hit, you can follow up with NAir into Fsmash (assuming Sheik misses tech.)
Be sure to keep in mind sheiks UpB, at one point in the match I died at 89 to a Sheik who read I was going to lloid off stage. Bouncing fish poses a huge problem if sheik reads or reacts to Lloid as well, so be sure to only press it when Sheik is in hitstun, charging needles, or recovering.
Always find times to lloid, especially against needle-campy Sheiks. The fact lloid can wall them is huge.
For stages id recommend Battlefield, DL64, or FD. SmashVille is probably the first thing I'd ban.
Overall I used to think this MU was bad but I'm starting to change that opinion. I think its anywhere from Villy 45:55 Sheik to Villy 50:50 Sheik

In fact, based on survivability alone (we can easily kill her before 100% with the right moves, and she struggles heavily at killing us if she can't get that up B) Villager might end up being a decent Sheik counterpick.

 

[TheeRealMonkey]

Sheik. The most popular top tier in Smash 4 currently. Let's see if we can't learn a thing or two from this thread.

1. Neutral - Sheik is one of the best characters in the game for this stage of the game, outclassed only possibly by Diddy. One big reason is her needles. They disrupt the flow of combat for the other character, hindering his approach options and keeping him on the move. Luckily, Villager has lloid to defend against these and at the same time send our own disruptive projectile back. As Villager players, we all know how it goes once you launch that lloid, it's a huge mix-up game. I would watch out for surprise bouncing fishes over the lloid, and be mindful of those lagless aerials. Don't go for a punish unless you're positive it will hit.
2. Edgeguarding - Personally, I have no clue how we're supposed to keep this beast off the stage. I've heard from @Player-1 that you can use turnips to hit her somehow, but I'm helpless with this.
3. Recovering - You know the drill, lloid to cover you horizontally as you fall down, then up-b back to the ledge. I'm sure Sheik has some tricks we should look out for, but I can only think of Bouncing Fish at the moment.
4. Stage Choice - Ban Smashville. Just suck it up and do it, as much as you may not want to. The follow ups Sheik can get from that darn moving platform is stupid. I mean, if you're opponent knows what to ban against villager, you're probably never gonna play on a stage you prefer. I guess go for Lylat, Battlefield, and Dreamland if you can.
5. Matchup Ratio - I can't really say for sure, but I'm just gonna say 40:60. I don't think Villager gets bopped quite as hard by Sheik as some characters do, but it's still pretty rough. At the last Shockwave tournament, for some reason a player named Gyo decided to "counterpick" Sheik with Villager, and he did kind of alright. He seems to think it's very doable. I'll link the video below.
6.

Feel free to add your own categories to the list if you want! Some ideas I can think of are "Best KO Options", "What To Do on <stage here>", "Possible Combos".

That Sheik used Bouncing Fish wayyyyy too much.

 

[Wonderf]

I think mostly everything that I know has been talked about so I think the match-up is 45:55
Also here's a Ranai video that I found useful:

Here's another Ranai video that was a bit more recent:

 

[Mr.C_Spain]

I think that matchup is between 40:60 and 45:55 (Sheik favor). Villager has many tools to deal with Sheik, on the Gyo's video several options are displayed, but Nair is very good in the neutral and to punish approachs against Sheik and Gyo use it little.

About when launch a spaced Lloid, it's necessary to take into account the distance that is sheik because we wrong sheik can punish us very quickly. Normally, all characters when fights against Villager they are alert to punish every time we put out a lloid. However if you measure the distance well, he will try to go quickly to punish and fail because it will give you time to put shield or even to attack.

I agree with Sonicrafth & Mtn64 posts.I agree with Darklink401 also: Villager can edgeguard Sheik (even gimp), but it's a bit complicated, you need read his second jump and bouncing fish.

posd: Gyo make good ID to Sheik's grab and punish his grab combos very well with Dair (what is the ID in the Ftrhow and Utrhow? it depends the percentage?) but when Denti is edgeguarding Gyo, Gyo can't reads bouncing fish, it's bad.

posd2: at 0-10%, when we Dtrhow to Sheik, I think that it's better make full hop+Nair instead of short hop+Nair, he can punish our Nair with jab/grab (on Gyo's video). Obviously Dtrhow to Ftilt/Dtilt is better.

 

[AnchorTea]

I discovered this 27% combo on Sheik. Start at 12%-15%. Grab, Dthrow, Dash for a split second, Usmash, and then Uair. The damage varies from the turnips, but it can do a maximum of 27%.

When I face Sheik in BF, Lylat, and Dreamland. I switch to counter timber and grow them on the left and right platforms so Sheik can't do her air combos on (rough estimate) 1/3 of the stage.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

I discovered this 27% combo on Sheik. Start at 12%-15%. Grab, Dthrow, Dash for a split second, Usmash, and then Uair. The damage varies from the turnips, but it can do a maximum of 27%.

When I face Sheik in BF, Lylat, and Dreamland. I switch to counter timber and grow them on the left and right platforms so Sheik can't do her air combos on (rough estimate) 1/3 of the stage.

Most tournaments don't have customs anymore

 

[AnchorTea]

Most tournaments don't have customs anymore

That doesn't mean they aren't completely illegal.

 

[Super Lucario Sunshine]

That doesn't mean they aren't completely illegal.

true, but from nationals to locals, it's a very rare tool

 

[Volya]

imo the mu is 45:55 for Sheik. Andddddddddddd i'm too lazy to argue
but ye i really don't mind fighting sheik player as vil

 

[AnchorTea]

Didn't @Indigo Jeans say that she was going to make an MU thread for customs after EVO?