Tier List Speculation

[Life]

Perhaps a better initial dash speed and a weight increase would be sufficient to make up for his up-B nerf?

The ability to live longer plus a better dash dance?

There are plenty of characters who are glass cannons with really good dash dances that live slightly longer than GnW. Keep GnW weird IMO.

Again, we can't know how good GnW actually is because his animations make him appear to be much safer than he actually is under the hood. Fix that first, and then worry about nerfs if he's a problem.

Also, how about them FE matchups?

 

[GP&B]

Gonna second/third/fourth that I absolutely do not want any more characters being put on blast for nerfs. After 3.5, this game desparately needs stability. For GaW's sake, I'd only refine the animations first before touching any numbers. Keep bringing up the obvious baddies but I want to see the game developing without any significant intervention.

 

[Sardonyx]

Gonna second/third/fourth that I absolutely do not want any more characters being put on blast for nerfs. After 3.5, this game desparately needs stability. For GaW's sake, I'd only refine the animations first before touching any numbers. Keep bringing up the obvious baddies but I want to see the game developing without any significant intervention.

Yes yes yessss all of this

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Nerf Luigi.

 

[robosteven]

remember that one time that Wizzrobe

lmao

 

[EmptySky00]

So I don't even have to read this thread to guess that people have been ******** about GnW all day. I really hope that Mr. Lz's success at Paragon doesn't lead to the character getting neutered. You really don't want the notion that performing well gets your character nerfed hanging over an entire meta game. That's not a good look. Sometimes certainly a performance is indicative of the character's overpotency, such as with the obligatory wizzrobe mention, but I don't think that that's too much the case here. I can't believe anyone could be so daft as to think that at this point in balancing a character can carry someone through the most stacked P:M tournament EVER. That's *actually* ********.

 

[robosteven]

So I don't even have to read this thread to guess that people have been ******** about GnW all day. I really hope that Mr. Lz's success at Paragon doesn't lead to the character getting neutered. You really don't want the notion that performing well gets your character nerfed hanging over an entire meta game. That's not a good look. Sometimes certainly a performance is indicative of the character's overpotency, such as with the obligatory wizzrobe mention, but I don't think that that's too much the case here. I can't believe anyone could be so daft as to think that a character can carry someone through the most stacked P:M tournament EVER. That's *actually* ********.

Just a reminder that there's a pretty big difference between being neutered and being toned down.

Mr. Lz played incredible, but not giving any credit to the character would be "*actually* ********."






also what year is it 2005 using the r word as an insult jfc

 

[EmptySky00]

Just a reminder that there's a pretty big difference between being neutered and being toned down.

Mr. Lz played incredible, but not giving any credit to the character would be "*actually* ********."






also what year is it 2005 using the r word as an insult jfc

Everyone is carried by their character to some extent. Why are you people so quick to jump at someone and belittle their success? That's not just ********, that's ****ing disgusting.

I neither know you nor do I care about your PC rule sharking. Get over it. I'll speak how I wish.

 

[robosteven]

Everyone is carried by their character to some extent. Why are you people so quick to jump at someone and belittle their success? That's not just ********, that's ****ing disgusting.

I neither know you nor do I care about your PC rule sharking. Get over it. I'll speak how I wish.

ow the edge

First off, you say this as though people haven't been calling out G&W's design points as questionable since past builds. Yes, Mr. Lz did amazing this tourney, yes, his character winning grands at the biggest PM tourney ever was a surprise.

Last I checked however, most everyone in this thread is trying to discuss the character and what this victory means for the overall design. If you go back a page, you'd see:

So someone is finally exposing Game & Watch at a national, I see.

Regardless, let's not pretend like MrLz isn't an amazing Game & Watch player, regardless of if we want to say GnW is broken or not.

No need to insult the kid over his victories.

So no, this isn't the "everyone trashtalk MrLz and G&W because he's OP and needs to be nerfed" thread.


tl;dr Please just read previous posts instead of rushing in guns blazing like you seem to think everyone's doing.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Nerf Luigi.

No please dont ;-;

 

[robosteven]

No please dont ;-;

To clarify, in spite of my shield size comment, since the side-b ledge detection change I think Luigi's in a pretty good spot atm.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Nerf Luigi.

:^)

real talk just change misfire so I can store it but have it not be random

just make it happen every six rolls

please

 

[robosteven]

real talk just change misfire so I can store it but have it not be random

just make it happen every six rolls

I ****ing love this idea.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I ****ing love this idea.

I'm of the opinion that killing with misfire is memey at best and jank and silly and unreliable at worst and pmdt has clearly already made changes to discourage killing with misfire

misfire's true strength is allowing for a great recovery mixup and also being one of the few recovery options that luigi has to recover high

like idgaf about the damage, you can reduce damage for all I care but I want a somewhat reliable, if limited, option to recover high that makes edgeguarding a little less linear and more interactive for both players

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm not sure what they could do to compensate for losing (or not so much losing, but weakening) some of his options.

Usually the good characters in PM that get nerfed get little to no compensation when getting nerfed, even if it means that the players of said character would have to change their particular habits or playstyles to get work done with the character (Just look at most of the 3.0 top tiers going into 3.5). Bringing up Bowser doesn't really make for a good point when people considered him bad before the nerfs in 3.6b, and then people felt that he was even worse. Of course when a bad character gets nerfed, compensation is expected. At least that's just how I see how PMDT handles high tier nerfs.

I don't think it's really a matter of what GnW gets in return for getting nerfed, but rather whether or not they'll take the nerfs too far. We've seen it with Pit back in 3.5, Zelda, Squirtle (imo), and a few other characters. Then again, I'm not going to pretend like I know how good or bad GnW would be in the next patch with certain nerfs.

Right, I just don't think there's really any sense in making any of the characters in this game worse at this point except fox. We've gotten through the normalization patch, so I think now the PMDT's focus should be on increasing character viability and tying up the loose ends so to speak. If people really think something needs to be done to G&W's upb (which I personally don't), then I damn well expect him to get something in return for him losing/toning down his one anti-smash trait that plays a role in many aspects of his kit. Same goes for ROB and Lucario.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nerf rob
Nerf diddy
Nerf gnw
Nerf fox more
buff puff
Gnw is bottom five

 

[Saproling]

Nerf rob
Nerf diddy
Nerf gnw
Nerf fox more
buff puff
Gnw is bottom five

But wheres Zeldas charge shot?

 

[Sethlon]

Oracle do airdash 24.7 and aerial everytime he come down is easy punish.

Actually, as most characters, its quite difficult to punish a ROB coming down with airdash aerials. GnW, though, has bacon (to shut down airdashes prematurely), beefy enough hitboxes to challenge his aerials and get good enough rewards even on trade, and upB OoS to shut down ROB's pressure when he does actually force you to shield a fair and simultaneous land kills (which is generally pretty difficult vs ROB).

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

The hermit speaks, coming down from his mountain of isolation to bring is great knowledge. Oh great Sethlon...

Game and Watch is mostly fine, animations and Up B combos could use some help, shortening the length of Up B would probably be the best option.

 

[PlateProp]

Actually, as most characters, its quite difficult to punish a ROB coming down with airdash aerials. GnW, though, has bacon (to shut down airdashes prematurely), beefy enough hitboxes to challenge his aerials and get good enough rewards even on trade, and upB OoS to shut down ROB's pressure when he does actually force you to shield a fair and simultaneous land kills (which is generally pretty difficult vs ROB).

If they're just boost fairing you can shield grab it unless he's like right above the ground and lands into another move, I remember @ DrinkingFood saying it was possible to do this but cant remember the exact followup

 

[nimigoha]

Pretty sure a jab1 will beat a shield grab if done after a very low boost Fair.

So just wait for the jab1 to end. But then it's a mixup whether he goes for jab2 or jab1>grab.

I'm dealing with my friend's DK and this problem at the moment. He would always late Nair>jab1 jab2>combo, because I was shield grabbing the Nair but getting beaten by jab. So then I started waiting for the jabs to end, so then he started doing jab1>grab, so my next move is to shield grab his first jab, hoping he's going to try to jab1>grab.

 

[The_NZA]

Out of all the reasons to defend GnW, please don't let it be "nerfs in 3.6 killed joy with the game, I don't think we should nerf people anymore". GnW is one of the least changed and nerfed characters since 3.02--I would argue marth has been nerfed more since 3.02 than GnW. His players have practically had immunity when the rest of us were changed and forced to adapt to losing very very crucial tools. If GnW gets changed, it's mostly that he's had it coming. Or he shouldn't be changed, and argue for that. But let's keep the conversation about design rather than game emotional politics.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

If they're just boost fairing you can shield grab it unless he's like right above the ground and lands into another move, I remember @ DrinkingFood saying it was possible to do this but cant remember the exact followup

As an Ivysaur player....what is a shieldgrab??

 

[Rizner]

Pretty sure a jab1 will beat a shield grab if done after a very low boost Fair.

So just wait for the jab1 to end. But then it's a mixup whether he goes for jab2 or jab1>grab.

I'm dealing with my friend's DK and this problem at the moment. He would always late Nair>jab1 jab2>combo, because I was shield grabbing the Nair but getting beaten by jab. So then I started waiting for the jabs to end, so then he started doing jab1>grab, so my next move is to shield grab his first jab, hoping he's going to try to jab1>grab.

Who do you use? Can you buffer roll or get a spot dodge in to miss jab2 and grab? What about movement to change where he's going to land and hit- get beneath him if not short hop, or dash away or challenge in air or something?

I feel like there are more options than accepting the 50/50 but might depend on your character

 

[The_NZA]

When he does well with G&W it must be that the characters obviously broken, but when people make top 8 with ness or link, theyre just really good players? I dont understand.
Not to say that I don't think G&W could stand a couple of changes (jump from up b has been dumb for a while) but honestly I think people are overreacting. He's clearly a top character, but it's not like a 3.0 character where a lot of the cast cant touch him. Rob is also pretty questionable, especially his throw game. If Rob had won instead, people probably wouldve complained about him. In fact, people would have pretty much complained about whatever character won.

FYI you can see it with Ness and Link because subjectively, you can see those characters being played to a very high level in their neutral and extremely technical developed punish game to win what looked like Very hard matches. Stereo for example has some of the smartest and most technically precise punish moments than you'll find with anyone else with the exception of maybe ipk. He's doing 3.02 neon equivalent stuff with ness when it comes to precise execution of DJC dairs, dtilt resets, DJC combos and his edgeguards.

And then you see what happens when ipk just learns to do one thing--dash up and shield every time ness is in the air (as pooch coached him) and suddenly it looked real real bad.

Also fun fact-Stereo beat junebug in a mm at blacklisted so this set they played evened them in sets. Kidd is a literal God.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

All these sets sound awesome, I'm so happy that I can go see them on Twitch archives.

Oh, wait.

 

[KiteAF]

All these sets sound awesome, I'm so happy that I can go see them on Twitch archives.

Oh, wait.

I think most of the videos are uploaded on projectmcentral's hitbox profile.

Edit: I can't fast forward it or pause it or anything though.
-__-"

 

[Scuba Steve]

Actually, as most characters, its quite difficult to punish a ROB coming down with airdash aerials. GnW, though, has bacon (to shut down airdashes prematurely), beefy enough hitboxes to challenge his aerials and get good enough rewards even on trade, and upB OoS to shut down ROB's pressure when he does actually force you to shield a fair and simultaneous land kills (which is generally pretty difficult vs ROB).

I just play Falcon and ROB is ez. Falcon's air mobility + Falcon upair and nair = sad ROB who doesn't want to airdash a lot. Not to mention Falcon gets reliable, strong conversions on ROB off of grabs unlike many other characters

 

[KiteAF]

How do you guys feel about Ness btw? I've heard him called bottom tier a whole lot, but there were so many amazing Nesses in this tourney. Was really cool to see.

 

[Narelex]

How do you guys feel about Ness btw? I've heard him called bottom tier a whole lot, but there were so many amazing Nesses in this tourney. Was really cool to see.

Ness really lacks options in the neutral game and relies heavily off MU inexperience. He is towards the lower end of the cast. His projectile is fairly slow and predictable, not to mention his recovery doesn't have great mixup options.

Stereo and Boiko played really really well though. Doesn't mean the character doesn't need some tuning.

 

[PlateProp]

Pretty sure a jab1 will beat a shield grab if done after a very low boost Fair.

So just wait for the jab1 to end. But then it's a mixup whether he goes for jab2 or jab1>grab.

I'm dealing with my friend's DK and this problem at the moment. He would always late Nair>jab1 jab2>combo, because I was shield grabbing the Nair but getting beaten by jab. So then I started waiting for the jabs to end, so then he started doing jab1>grab, so my next move is to shield grab his first jab, hoping he's going to try to jab1>grab.

The thing is you would know if rob was going to be able to do boost fair > jab/grab because of how close to the ground he would be. If they're just barely above it all you have to do is buffer spotdodge or roll, simular to how you grab Fox/Falco before the shine if they hit high on your shield, but wait until after shine if they hit it low

 

[The_NZA]

How do you guys feel about Ness btw? I've heard him called bottom tier a whole lot, but there were so many amazing Nesses in this tourney. Was really cool to see.

IMO, the top 5 Nesses are Stereo, Boiko, Akhi, Tetra, and myself. You can leave me or keep me on the list--i don't care.

At this tournament and at BL, we had 3/5 of those Nesses in attendance, as well as Mr. Grin and Reyn Time who are pretty respectable at Paragon and BL. The Nesses that succeeded both played exceptionally AND were to some extent bracket blessed. I don't mean bracket blessed in the sense that they had free brackets--I don't think there is a free bracket for Ness. But they both mostly played semi fast fallers, fast fallers, or heavy regular fallers which all run the gamete of characters Ness has stuff against.

IMO, Ness v Lucario, Ness v Fox, and Ness v Diddy are all somewhere between 55-45 and 60-40s against Ness, which honestly isn't that bad in comparison to matchups he has against disjointed characters, swordies, floaties. These are also the types of matchups where a lack of character knowledge gets you boned.

WHen you get a chance, I recommend watching SK v IPK. StereoKidd in that first set was winning neutral A LOT. Honestly, way more than in high level Ness v anyone should ever play out. And SK, being a god, made IPK really eat **** for it. I don't know what happened, but somewhere in set 2, Pooch told IPK "dude, just camp in shield when he jumps" and suddenly nothing SK was doing was working in neutral. He still ahd the punish game to make a statement, and if he had better edgeguarding, he might have taken a game or two or the set. But in general, we saw rapid adaption.

It's to be expected when you have 3/5 top Nesses at an event, good stuff is going to happen. But your brackets matter a lot as well. Luckily for boiko and SK, they were both playing in peak shape AND they had doable matchups. In SK's case, he was assisted by a bit of matchup unfamiliarity against IPK and he severely outplayed him.

But IMO StereoKIDD still way outplayed his competition, and if Ness was balanced, he'd be unequivocally considered a top 5-10 player in the world.

 

[Boiko]

My pool was Ike, Wario.
And my bracket was ICs/D3, Ivysaur, Roy, Mewtwo, Link, and Fox.

That's a bunch of bad match ups in my opinion.

I don't think I really got bracket blessed. I just did well.

 

[The_NZA]

My pool was Ike, Wario.
And my bracket was ICs/D3, Ivysaur, Roy, Mewtwo, Link, and Fox.

That's a bunch of bad match ups in my opinion.

I don't think I really got bracket blessed. I just did well.

Sorry, I didn't look at Challonge. I was just going by what I saw on stream.

 

[MrLul]

Actually, as most characters, its quite difficult to punish a ROB coming down with airdash aerials. GnW, though, has bacon (to shut down airdashes prematurely), beefy enough hitboxes to challenge his aerials and get good enough rewards even on trade, and upB OoS to shut down ROB's pressure when he does actually force you to shield a fair and simultaneous land kills (which is generally pretty difficult vs ROB).

Oracle, like every single time when launched in the air did airdash nair towards me and I would just go out of range and punish. The airdashes he did were like autopilot. Also, spacing out airdashes isn't hard as any char, especially with some1 with such a good dash dance as Roy.

 

[MrLul]

G&W stuff

You can bait up b, then punish him as he comes down. He can b reverse bacon, double jump, dair (which is easy to punish) or do nothing, so he has quite a few mix-ups. Find out how your character can cover at least 2 of these options, or cover what the GnW player does the most on the way down. Ex: Shield pressure him with an aerial at a safe distance away from his up b hitbox, which is smaller than shine) then aerial him as he goes up. Characters with swords have an easier time doing this.

GnWs best throw is uthrow, it leads to guaranteed uair and nair a lot of the time. Try not to di GnWs throws anywhere and see where he throws you. If he does Uthrow, he can either nair you which will end the combo, or combo you with u air. Thing is, if you di and sdi away from GnW, he has a really hard time comboing you off of the uair. You can also SDI Gnw's up b, but it's trickier because knowing what angle you'll be hit at is pretty hard. Always try to tech when you're thrown because he could be down throwing you, but beware if you're a fast faller because you can get tech trapped with up throw.

Lots of GnWs fair from ledge. Best thing to do is crouch cancel where the soft part will hit, then punish.

You can crouch cancel GnW's bair, and shield the last few hits and then grab/fastest oos option. Make sure you time it right, because he'll probably up b afterwards, which remember puts him into a bad situation. Also SDI AND DI BAIR AWAY. It combos into really good kill moves. Everybody I played di'd in and got up air up b up air killed off of it.

If he approach with fair, shield grab lol.

I don't think GnW is too good, but he def needs some things toned down. Up throw needs to be nerfed, & bucket braking needs to be removed. Plus matching animations with hit hitboxes. GnW is #1 if you don't SDI his nasty punishes. Also, REWORK SIDE B. 1/3 chance to get a 9 is dumb. Up throw into 9 is dumb. Watch me vs Dakpo where he gets like ten 9 hammers lmao.


Holy crap I got so much hate lmao. GnW is super godlike at low and mid level, so I guess that's where some of the salt comes from?

 

[SunJester]

GnW is super godlike at low and mid level, so I guess that's where some of the salt comes from?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

...

gahlike.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

That sounds about right.

 

[Kipcom]

My boy called out Oracle on his playstyle, gave some counterplay suggestions for GnW, and then still said his character needs nerfs rather than the typical "Leave my character alone!" that I see from most of the other GnW mains.

Edit: And how can I forget the shots to the low-mid level players


Straight up savage tbh