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Tier List Speculation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by OkamiBW, Dec 31, 2012.

  1. Paradoxium

    Paradoxium Smash Lord

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    For the love of Christ

    HE WAS BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!
  2. Terotrous

    Terotrous Smash Ace

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    Actually I think he was trolling.


    Anyway, all I ask of M2K is that you keep wrecking people with M2. And Pichu if he ever gets brought back.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  3. Fish&Herbs19

    Fish&Herbs19 Smash Journeyman

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    @M2K If Link becomes the MK of this game, I'm honestly fine with that. There is no way for us to currently prove that Link is broken other than opinions, so I think that after one more update, the game should be left alone and become a finished product. That is just my 2 cents. Also at Tetrotous, the core design of Falco did not get changed from Melee. His down tilt, down smash, down air and shine are different than that of Fox which makes him play like a totally different character.
  4. Canon

    Canon witty/pretty

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    I have absolutely no clue why me, the player who continuously lied about frame data even once corrected by the PMBR, might not have the most trustworthy opinion here. absolutely no clue at all
    Bryonato and Juushichi like this.
  5. Mew2King

    Mew2King King of the Mews

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    What did I lie about? I try to never lie. I say what I think, that's it, it's very simple. I even corrected superdoodleman's frame data on marth/roy's counter being 58 frames when it was 59 when I did ridiculous difficult stat tests, and he tested it with simple AR/laptops.

    Here this can provide some background if anyone cares - http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...mew2kings_ama_and_lots_of_other_stuff/cdopcf9

    and yes, I'm simply saying my opinion just like the rest of you are

    my word isn't fact or law, but I do think it should be considered. And more than the average person imo since I'm more experienced and know more.

    edit - nvm that wasn't directed towards me
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  6. MLGF

    MLGF Smash Ace

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    M2K does make some valid arguments regarding Melee players and such, at the very least it's interesting.
    *looks at all the people on the page*
    And it seems I'm not alone on that idea.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  7. Mew2King

    Mew2King King of the Mews

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    No I think that many people are there cuz I posted it on my social media in case anyone else was interested.
    Nguz95 likes this.
  8. NickRiddle

    NickRiddle Rawr?

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    You mean... having to mash out of a grab?
    Tough life.
    P.I.E. likes this.
  9. didds

    didds Smash Ace

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    how does mash?
  10. Hylian

    Hylian Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery

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    "Link has a lagless grab"

    Er..maybe you should look up some frame data M2K before making mindless claims.

    G&W best in character in brawl because bucket braking amirite?
  11. Mew2King

    Mew2King King of the Mews

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    Are you going to keep bringing up that 1 example from 2008 to try to say any point I make is invalid, hylian? You've so far done this many times to me in many different threads about different things to try to invalidate me.

    I'm speaking from EXPERIENCE and many Link players have AGREED with me.

    from experience, Link can do a pivot grab, MISS, and by the time i try to punish, they are able to buffer a dodge or roll away. I feel like that is ridiculous, when you also combine the range, speed, and punishes you get off of attempting the grab. To me that is inbalanced and not good design

    Lucas can also dash grab and if you spot dodge it will STILL -usually- hit you, because it lasts for so freaking long. That is also bad design, imo

    feel free to disagree all you want

    I'm still going to say my opinions though.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
    Venks, Gohan, MegaRobMan and 6 others like this.
  12. Paradoxium

    Paradoxium Smash Lord

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    Oh **** i see i **** ton of people viewing this thread right now lol.

    I bet that its mostly salty pm players who are upset because m2k basically called us all bitches

    I WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT THE PIKACHU VS FOX MATCH UP IS 50-50

    THERE I SAID IT
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  13. Seagull Joe

    Seagull Joe Brawl Backroom Member

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    :link2:'s boomerang is plus on block and yields combos into ANYTHING. His grab leads to Dair/Uair on every character, which means a grab=death. His recovery is one of the hardest to gimp or punish.

    In PM, the concept "do not get grabbed" applies to many characters not :popo:. It's honestly dumb. Almost everything in the game can be DI'd...except grabs.
    :018:
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  14. Ripple

    Ripple Let's Play a Game

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    you say that Link's grab has a bad design but yet you would revert spacies back to melee?

    like what?

    shine being invinicible was a dumb design, laser's also not diminishing in damage over distance was bad design.

    how could you possibly think that fox would be fine DESIGN wise with these in the game?
  15. Hylian

    Hylian Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery

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    I just think it's funny to give you a hard time about it because you told me I was dumb for disagreeing with you in 2008 when you said that. Maybe you shouldn't call people dumb for disagreeing with you when stuff like this can happen :D.

    You should really just look up some frame data and not go off "feeling". Link has the 3rd slowest grab behind Samus/ZSS and the move lasts over 50 frames IIRC. You can't punish a 50 frame move are you kidding? It's slower than any non-tether grab by a considerable margin and it only grabs in the air on his hand. And yes, lucas has a ton of active frames on his grab which will grab out out of spotdodge. Opinions are fine and all but you can't just say something is fast/lagless when it clearly isn't compared to every other character in the game. Not going to comment on any of the other stuff because I don't really care what people think of tiers in this game as it's so new but I dislike mis-information spreading.
  16. Mew2King

    Mew2King King of the Mews

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    No, I would keep the top tiers the same, and make the other characters BETTER

    Link was an example of someone made WAY too much better.

    Link is a lot better and dumber than spacies are btw. My fox lost to the illinois link here and went last hit with another link in pools (I still won the tourney). Btw, I know the MU pretty well. I played with internet explorer all the time. Maybe like 30 hours idk. A LOT. Kels also lost to that link with his fox, and the link was a good player but he didn't master his character to the extent that KEls mastered fox. Kels just is a really really good player and it is proved through melee.

    You can be better without being bad design. I understood that they wanted to make link viable, and that's fine.

    I'm just letting you guys know the end result was a lot more than that.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  17. DrinkingFood

    DrinkingFood Smash Master

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    I can punish link's whiffed grab
    I am now better than M2K
    this is fact

    no but seriously m2k complain about link's boomerang not the grab
    maybe if you complain about it, it'll get changed, after like, 100 other people have already seen how ridiculous it is
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  18. Zoler

    Zoler Smash Ace

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    PM is dumb anyway Kappa
  19. Mew2King

    Mew2King King of the Mews

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    I'm telling you what happened FROM EXPERIENCE and it happened MANY times. The link players, most of them even AGREED with me (from different regions too, boston NJ and illinois). I think the move was made too good. Even if just slightly.

    Don't want to change it? fine.

    That still won't stop me from speaking my mind.

    I think the grab overall is too good when you consider the heavy reward you get off it. You can chain grab characters, up/down throw for kills or very large combos (up throw dash attack to anything, or down throw up tilt/downsmash/up B/chaingrab), and when you combine the speed/range/followups off it, I think that move is insane.

    Maybe i should have picked a different character as an example. Link was just one of them. I also don't care to argue this much further. I said what I think already.

    Or a different move. I should have used boomerang as an example. Or Zair, or dash attack, or up B.

    Or jab AUTOMATICALLY LEADING TO GRAB.

    PM is certainly not dumb. PM is my favorite smash game tied with Melee. I'm bored of melee cuz it's so old and I don't really have motivation much in it cuz of that.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
    GaretHax, Nguz95, Sinz and 10 others like this.
  20. ChemX

    ChemX Smash Cadet

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    That dang RockCrock.
    NickLeo likes this.
  21. Lunchables

    Lunchables Constructables

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    So I'm not going to read this stupid thread but
    Toonlink is bottom 1, ct tier list is obviously right. Buff my character please?
  22. | Big D |

    | Big D | Brawl Backroom Member

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    How overpowered do you feel Dedede is?
    Java and 9Kplus1 like this.
  23. Terotrous

    Terotrous Smash Ace

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    I do generally agree that a lot of what the new characters have might seem broken because you're not used to it. For example, look at Falco's pillar combo. If one of the new characters had that, everyone would be screaming for nerfs, but since it's Falco and we're used to it from Melee, people don't question it.

    Is some of the stuff that Link (or others) have stupid? Probably. But there's a lot of stupid stuff in this game. It's part of what makes it fun.


    Also, I would like to note that M2K said Mewtwo has a good design, yet M2's ability to act out of Teleport has been almost as controversial as Link's boomerang.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  24. wiiztec

    wiiztec Smash Apprentice

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    Lol why are you feeding that troll?
    robosteven likes this.
  25. Hylian

    Hylian Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery

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    You are telling me a 50 frame move is lagless and unpunishable from experience?

    ... Maybe you should practice what you preach and actually practice punishing stuff instead of complaining on the forums about it.
    Saproling, Espy Rose, E2xD and 2 others like this.
  26. the wizard howl

    the wizard howl Smash Apprentice

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    PM, the brawl minus that you're supposed to take seriously
    Djent, MegaRobMan, hamyojo and 3 others like this.
  27. Sol64

    Sol64 Smash Cadet

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    Yeah, I was very shocked to see squirtle that low (and zelda that high until recently when I tried her last week) I do think if someone mastered Squirtle, it would shake his position greatly.
  28. Paradoxium

    Paradoxium Smash Lord

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    fix'd
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  29. Terotrous

    Terotrous Smash Ace

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    I put Squirtle at Mid. I feel you can see the potential when Jewchainz plays him, even though he can't quite put it all together.


    Holy heck there's 300 people active in this thread right now. PM is popular!
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  30. didds

    didds Smash Ace

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    That goes for everyone, but tbh, I don't think squirtle is ever gonna be top tier, but I also think he has the tools to have a chance against every character which is nice. It sucks when a single bad matchup can negate your character's viability.
  31. [TSON]

    [TSON] Hella.

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    Speechless.
    MLGF likes this.
  32. Centribo

    Centribo Smash Rookie

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    Tough life for Ness mains...
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  33. Sol64

    Sol64 Smash Cadet

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    Yeah, of course the game is still new so with time, him/or someone else will rise and surprise us with new tech.


    I know right? And Squirtle being top tier? I doubt it yeah but he can reach mid down the line if there's promise someone will have mastered him and proves it time and time over.
  34. SunJester

    SunJester Smash Journeyman

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    The cool things about P:M is, that if Link is truly too good at this game, he can be changed.

    We won't be stuck with another Brawl Meta Knight.

    Though if I can interject my lowly opinion, it would be that we don't take a lot of Link's utility away from his moves, rather maybe we could nerf %damage and KB. Even if Link isn't mastered per-se, there are still many players that have put a lot of time into learning his character.
  35. ThegreatVaporeon1

    ThegreatVaporeon1 Smash Cadet

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    Luigi is the best character; we all know this
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  36. Vonpuppin

    Vonpuppin Smash Rookie

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    lol m2k is so correct about everything its hurting my skin
    ShadowGanon, 1FD and ez.™ like this.
  37. jalued

    jalued Smash Lord

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    Grab
    Spoiler

    Toggle Spoiler[​IMG]Total: 85
    Grabs: 12-19
    NOTE: Image doesn't show the Clawshot portion of the grabbox because BrawlBox doesn't show articles.

    I don't know where information concerning his JCG or DCG could be found, but here are the frames for his standard grab.

    For comparison, DDD's grab comes out on frame 7-8 and lasts for 30
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
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  38. mechtroid

    mechtroid Smash Rookie

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    Semirelated, m2k: Do you think it might be good for the metagame for the old melee mains to be slightly less strong than the other characters when mastered, until the metagame is more developed, so that more people are encouraged to master a character like link, bowser, or G&W instead of what all of the old melee pros are playing? In essence, make characters like fox, falco, and mario less appealing so the depth of the rest of the cast can "catch up" to the head-start the earlier characters got from melee players. Obviously this would require the PM team to continue to make subtle tweaks to balance for a continued period of time, not like the dumb sonic changes from 2.5 to 2.6 you mentioned.
  39. Hylian

    Hylian Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery

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    Sorry did I say 50 frames? I meant EIGHTY FIVE. How a top player can not punish a whiffed 85 frame move is beyond me.
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  40. jalued

    jalued Smash Lord

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    To be fair, this is only the frames for his standard (obsolete) grab. Any chance you have the brawlbox frames stored somewhere for his JC grab?
    Pacack likes this.

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