The SSB Poll Lounge: DLC mode engaged

[Robert of Normandy]

Golden and Shorts.

Get him

GOLDEN SMASH PUNY NOOB!

 

[Shorts]

I would like to have voted for Impa. I find it likely that she will be Sheik's replacement (but have the exact same fighting style to keep fans happy), so it's not like she NEEDS much popularity, but still.

Meh, I really doubt Shiek's going to be replaced. At this point, I think it would have already happened if it was going to.

I wish that there was a way to vote others down though. In that case, I'd vote down Waluigi (unoriginal piece of crap with no importance), Krystal (Star Fox doesn't deserve 4 reps, the other SF reps can be decloned and half her fans only like her because she's furry boobs), and Tetra/Toon Zelda (I love Wind Waker, but a second Toon character?)

Yeah, I'll never include down votes, that's an awful idea when trying to find out popularity.

I think Dark Samus deserves more attention. Metroid needs a third rep, she has amazing moveset potential, she is a playable Metroid and a great choice all around.

Weird how you dislike clones, but want Dark Samus to get more attention.

 

[FalKoopa]

Wait, what? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

It's a joke. You see, GoldenYuiitusin (or Golden) is a Waluigi supporter and Shortiecanbrawl (or Shorts) is a Krystal supporter.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

It's a joke. You see, GoldenYuiitusin (or Golden) is a Waluigi supporter and Shortiecanbrawl (or Shorts) is a Krystal supporter.

Well that and he made a lot of dumb suggestions(like down votes).

 

[Sharkarat]

Down votes is a horrible idea when trying to find the most popular, and can lead to people downvote everyone they didn't upvote just so their favorite do better.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Yeah, I'll never include down votes, that's an awful idea when trying to find out popularity.

Weird how you dislike clones, but want Dark Samus to get more attention.

First of all, I didn't say it was a GOOD suggestion. I know it's a pretty terrible idea, but I despise Waluigi so much that it's not even funny.

Second of all, I recommend a Narutendo3 moveset video on Dark Samus (Search "Dark Samus for Super Smash Bros. 4" on YouTube). There's a wealth of moveset potential for the character, the entity itself isn't well connected to Samus (it's Metroid Prime), and she even has different physics, being more floaty.

 

[N3ON]

Just because a character could have an original moveset doesn't mean they will. Roy could've had an original moveset, Toon Link could've had an original moveset, Ganondorf definitely could've had an original moveset. At this point Dark Samus's best chances (which still aren't that great) lie with being a semi-clone of Samus, as it would be much easier to include her that way, and towards the end of roster creation (which is likely the only time Dark Samus would be included), semi-clones are usually prioritized above original movesets. That's why Dark Samus is generally thought to really only have a chance (a fairly poor chance) as a semi-clone.

 

[Shorts]

That's not saying that I don't like Dark Samus. I think it would be an awesome addition. But I like almost every character.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Just because a character could have an original moveset doesn't mean they will. Roy could've had an original moveset, Toon Link could've had an original moveset, Ganondorf definitely could've had an original moveset. At this point Dark Samus's best chances (which still aren't that great) lie with being a semi-clone of Samus, as it would be much easier to include her that way, and towards the end of roster creation (which is likely the only time Dark Samus would be included), semi-clones are usually prioritized above original movesets. That's why Dark Samus is generally thought to really only have a chance (a fairly poor chance) as a semi-clone.

The purpose of clones in Melee was simply the lack of development time and the need for more characters. They didn't have time to differentiate Ganondorf from C. Falcon very much, Roy from Marth, and so on.

As for Brawl, I'll give you that they really could've done better with Ganondorf and the SF characters. However, with the stated focus being on perfecting veterans in SSB4, I believe that this includes further separating the characters moveset-wise. They realize now that clones are a problem and people complain about them. As such, I think that while it would be easier to make DS a clone of Samus, they won't cut corners. (Optimism ftw!)

 

[N3ON]

The purpose of clones in Melee was simply the lack of development time and the need for more characters. They didn't have time to differentiate Ganondorf from C. Falcon very much, Roy from Marth, and so on.

As for Brawl, I'll give you that they really could've done better with Ganondorf and the SF characters. However, with the stated focus being on perfecting veterans in SSB4, I believe that this includes further separating the characters moveset-wise. They realize now that clones are a problem and people complain about them. As such, I think that while it would be easier to make DS a clone of Samus, they won't cut corners. (Optimism ftw!)

Yeah, but we wouldn't have got those characters at all had it not been for Sakurai adding clones. It's not like they were originally planned but then relegated to have another character's moveset, they were added with the purpose of not being differentiated (to any great extent) from their original counterpart. So comparing it with Dark Samus in SSB4, it would be like having a semi-cloned character or no character at all. Sure most of the clones could've hypothetically been made unique, but that was never the plan for them. If Sakurai wanted original movesets over clones, he would've added different characters, not the ones he chose. So for SSB4 if Sakurai chose to only add new original characters and no semi-clones, chances are characters with more merit and factors in their favour than Dark Samus would be included first.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Yeah, but we wouldn't have got those characters at all had it not been for Sakurai adding clones. It's not like they were originally planned but then relegated to have another character's moveset, they were added with the purpose of not being differentiated (to any great extent) from their original counterpart. So comparing it with Dark Samus in SSB4, it would be like having a semi-cloned character or no character at all. Sure most of the clones could've hypothetically been made unique, but that was never the plan for them. If Sakurai wanted original movesets over clones, he would've added different characters, not the ones he chose. So for SSB4 if Sakurai chose to only add new original characters and no semi-clones, chances are characters with more merit and factors in their favour than Dark Samus would be included first.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. In most cases, it would've been "clone character added or no clone at all." But that's because those characters were unimportant and would have taken too much time to make very different from their original counterparts anyway. Ganondorf would have been added at some point in the series regardless of the clone issue. He's the main over-arching Zelda villain and the third part of the Triforce, so he's a very important character. I don't think Dark Samus is in the same boat as Roy, Pichu, and Dr. Mario though. And like I said, I think they've learned from their past mistakes, and decloning characters is a top priority. I don't think they'd declone veterans and promptly add semi-clone newcomers.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Dark Samus will forever be under the boot of Ridley, and even then Ridley isn't even guaranteed to appear in SSB4.

While I think it'd rock to play as Dark Samus, much potential and the more Metroid the merrier imo, I just don't see Metroid getting more than 2 reps and 3 unique movesets. It's a big franchise, but not big enough to get 4 unique movesets, that's the Mario standard.

 

[Shorts]

While I think it'd rock to play as Dark Samus, much potential and the more Metroid the merrier imo, I just don't see Metroid getting more than 2 reps and 3 unique movesets. It's a big franchise, but not big enough to get 4 unique movesets, that's the Mario standard.

People need to drop their arbitrary cap limits. It doesn't make sense.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Dark Samus will forever be under the boot of Ridley, and even then Ridley isn't even guaranteed to appear in SSB4.

While I think it'd rock to play as Dark Samus, much potential and the more Metroid the merrier imo, I just don't see Metroid getting more than 2 reps and 3 unique movesets. It's a big franchise, but not big enough to get 4 unique movesets, that's the Mario standard.

Actually, one of the main reasons I advocate Dark Samus is because it/she/whatever is because I think Metroid really does deserve three reps (And I don't count ZSS, because she doesn't have her own slot, even though she has a unique moveset). While Dark Samus isn't as important as Ridley, DS is a mutated Metroid and thus represents a species that is very important to the series.

 

[N3ON]

I'm not sure I follow your logic. In most cases, it would've been "clone character added or no clone at all." But that's because those characters were unimportant and would have taken too much time to make very different from their original counterparts anyway.

I'm not saying Dark Samus is unimportant persay, but when compared to all the other plausible candidates this time around, she really doesn't have anything that would get her prioritized among the other original moveset newcomers. Especially since there will probably be fewer newcomers this time around, and Ridley will likely be given priority as a Metroid newcomer, it stands to reason that there won't be much in Dark Samus's favour to convince Sakurai to add two new original Metroid characters, when many other character would seemingly take precedence. So Dark Samus isn't unimportant... just not as important as many other more likely characters.

Ganondorf would have been added at some point in the series regardless of the clone issue. He's the main over-arching Zelda villain and the third part of the Triforce, so he's a very important character.

I agree, I think if he hadn't gotten in Melee, he would've been added in Brawl. I'm just saying for Melee, he was only ever added to be a clone, not an original character, so it would've been cloned Ganondorf or no Ganondorf (for Melee).

I don't think Dark Samus is in the same boat as Roy, Pichu, and Dr. Mario though. And like I said, I think they've learned from their past mistakes, and decloning characters is a top priority. I don't think they'd declone veterans and promptly add semi-clone newcomers.

Cloned characters from Melee weren't fully decloned in Brawl, yet we got new semi-clones. We even got returning clones above an original character, so I wouldn't be so sure they've "learned from past mistakes", especially since some of the clones have become quite popular characters. I do believe semi-clones will continue to be luigified, but we've had clones in all three games already, including new ones in each iteration, so I wouldn't be so sure there won't be any new ones in SSB4.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

People need to drop their arbitrary cap limits. It doesn't make sense.

I don't think Sakurai wants to use many resources on promoting a lot of stuff that has already gained the players and fans it can. If Ridley makes it into the next game as a character, I don't think Metroid can draw in many more fans, and they'd rather use their resources elsewhere, on something that's more demanded and could draw in more players. Something that looks like a recolored Samus on first glance surely wouldn't help that. In the game developing industry it's important to use your resources well, instead of having your crew work a ton on something that won't bring much impact. That does make sense.

Actually, one of the main reasons I advocate Dark Samus is because it/she/whatever is because I think Metroid really does deserve three reps (And I don't count ZSS, because she doesn't have her own slot, even though she has a unique moveset). While Dark Samus isn't as important as Ridley, DS is a mutated Metroid and thus represents a species that is very important to the series.

I do support Dark Samus, Metroid being my favorite franchise ever I also think Metroid deserves three reps, but I don't think that many people are with us on that, and thus the message wouldn't get out to Sakurai, which is what I guess I was really supposed to say. The whole idea of being able to play as a species of Metroid is thrilling though, I'd have the time of my life if Dark Samus' final smash was transforming into Metroid Prime, like I so hoped it would in the final battle in Prime 3.

 

[Shorts]

I don't think Sakurai wants to use many resources on promoting a lot of stuff that has already gained the players and fans it can.

Why do you think that way? What has Sakurai said/done to make you think this?

If Ridley makes it into the next game as a character, I don't think Metroid can draw in many more fans, and they'd rather use their resources elsewhere, on something that's more demanded and could draw in more players.

Dark Samus would draw more fans. The inclusion of virtually any character is going to draw a fan base. This line of thinking doesn't even make sense to me. Why would you think only Ridley can draw in more fans? You realize that the majority of casual players probably have no clue who Ridley is right? If we're going to simply add characters that will "draw in more fans" then we should add like four third parties, three more Pokemon, and three more Mario characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I suppose I'm surprised to see Mewtwo so high. I most certainly did not think he deserved to be removed from Brawl, but I did not think that so many followed my same logic. Unless this is solely because of the fact that Mewtwo got a new form (or whatever it is) for Pokemon X and Y?

In that case, I'd say Mewtwo's return is pretty much guaranteed, he just will be in his new form.

I think there's a good chance that we'll get both Mewtwo's new form and Mewtwo's original form. I think the original form will be his default while the new form is activated by a transformation (Final Smash/transformation button).

I'm sure the new form is how he beat Megaman, but he's always been among the most requested characters so no worries there.

I'll have to agree there. I think the transformation convinced most people skeptical of Mewtwo due to his move set to support Mewtwo's return because of the potential of Mewtwo turning out much better than Melee.

Everyone else I want is still there though. It's a relief to see that most of the top 10 make sense (Roy doesn't, but he can be a costume clone for Marth and it should still be okay).

I would hate to see a different character reduced to a costume of another character. It'd be pretty insulting if you ask me.

 

[Shorts]

Mewtwo's transformation killed Zoroark. I think that's a big reason why he's so high. He's universally requested because who's going to stop him? The next most requested Pokemon is "6th Gen Pokemon". Which isn't even a character, so much as a slot. Pokemon Trainer Johto is the next ACTUAL Pokemon newcomer who's most requested behind Mewtwo. Zoroark's behind a few choices, honestly.

I'm also surprised how well the PT's are all doing.



· Pikachu 729
· Jigglypuff 597
· Mewtwo 594
· Pokemon Trainer (Kanto) 496
· Lucario 324
· 6th Gen Pokemon 204
· Pokemon Trainer (Johto) 164
· Zoroark 158
· Eevee (and Eeveelutions) 151
· Pokemon Trainer (Hoenn) 140
· Pokemon Trainer (Kalos) 122
· Pokemon Trainer (Sinnoh) 105
· Deoxys 103
· Pokemon Trainer N 101
· Pokemon Trainer Villain (Rocket, Plasma, Galactic, Aqua, Magma) 99
· Plusle & Minun 98
· Meowth 94
· Genesect 89
· Pichu 85
· Pokemon Champion Cynthia 81
· Mew 68
· Darkrai 62
· Meloetta 51
· Victini 50

· Gardevoir 47

 

[BKupa666]

As far as Ridley being an inherently better choice than Dark Samus for drawing in fans, I'll throw out that Ridley's archetype of 'alien dragon' is (close to) objectively awesome, whereas Dark Samus' archetype of clone is loathed by much of Smash's casual fanbase. I am aware of her potential unique from Samus, but when her trophy description labels the two as 'identical,' it's not rocket science to see what the developers see in her.

Not a strong opinion, just a thought.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Why do you think that way? What has Sakurai said/done to make you think this?

Dark Samus would draw more fans. The inclusion of virtually any character is going to draw a fan base. This line of thinking doesn't even make sense to me. Why would you think only Ridley can draw in more fans? You realize that the majority of casual players probably have no clue who Ridley is right? If we're going to simply add characters that will "draw in more fans" then we should add like four third parties, three more Pokemon, and three more Mario characters.

I'm thinking of resources as an important part of game developing because it is. That's a fact that can't be argued with. It doesn't have to do with what Sakurai has done, it has to do with what it means to be a game developer. While Sakurai sure is unique in his art, he is still just that, and he has to work inside specific frames.

And what I'm saying is that Dark Samus is one of the last characters that'd draw in fans, or make people super-hyped. It isn't a very demanded character, and people who don't know the character (as is often with the case of Smash Bros fans) will just call it off as a Samus recolor.

And never did I imply that we should only include characters which can draw in more fans, blowing things out of proportions much, but it's still something that goes against Dark Samus. You don't even need to know who Meta Knight or Pit was, you still wanted to play them, so it's not a matter of knowing the character necessarily if you want to draw in fans. Ridley has that in his favor, a space dragon, I mean c'mon, there's a reason why Charizard is a fan-favorite Pokémon, people love dragons, people that don't know Ridley would still want to play the character.

Smash Bros is also about introducing franchises to new people, cool characters do that well. Meta Knight made me play the Kirby games for example, Samus made me play the Metroid games back in the Melee days too.

Again, I never stated it as a sole reason to include characters, but it's one thing that can go against Dark Samus besides a lack of popularity.

 

[Shorts]

As far as Ridley being an inherently better choice than Dark Samus for drawing in fans, I'll throw out that Ridley's archetype of 'alien dragon' is (close to) objectively awesome,

See, the thing is you're going for a general archtype the entire community will recognize when you praise Ridley.

whereas Dark Samus' archetype of clone is loathed by much of Smash's casual fanbase. I am aware of her potential unique from Samus, but when her trophy description labels the two as 'identical,' it's not rocket science to see what the developers see in her.

But your argument against Dark Samus is a hypothetical one that really only the more hardcore fans seem to have a problem with. The argument AGAINST Dark Samus is pretty weak. But I think most arguments AGAINST characters are pretty weak to begin with.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Not sure whether to be sad that Gardevoir is the lowest Pokemon or surprised that so many even voted for her/him (they exist) at all.

 

[Shorts]

I'm thinking of resources as an important part of game developing because it is. That's a fact that can't be argued with. It doesn't have to do with what Sakurai has done, it has to do with what it means to be a game developer. While Sakurai sure is unique in his art, he is still just that, and he has to work inside specific frames.

So Sakurai has never given you reason to believe this? Okay, that's what I thought. My issue is with you capping things via arbitrary reasoning. Because that's what you did when you said:

While I think it'd rock to play as Dark Samus, much potential and the more Metroid the merrier imo, I just don't see Metroid getting more than 2 reps and 3 unique movesets. It's a big franchise, but not big enough to get 4 unique movesets, that's the Mario standard.

There's really no reason to believe that we can't have Samus / ZSS, Ridley, and Dark Samus. "Not big enough to get 4 unique movesets" I think StarFox and Mother kind of blew all sorts of character caps based on "how big" a series is out of the water. Especially considering series like Donkey Kong have sold many many times more then both SF and Mother, and still Diddy was only added in Brawl.

My point is, you shouldn't have these silly caps, especially when you're using sales to back up your reasoning.

 

[RavenKingSage]

I would hate to see a different character reduced to a costume of another character. It'd be pretty insulting if you ask me.

I think that's what it will have to come to, though. Ike's too popular and relevant worldwide to remove. Awakening is too important and successful to ignore. Fans should realize that if they want Roy back, that's how it would have to be. I see costume clones as having different voices and their own names. It's not like he's just a palette swap. The game will still call him "Roy" and he'd have a different voice from Marth.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

So Sakurai has never given you reason to believe this? Okay, that's what I thought. My issue is with you capping things via arbitrary reasoning. Because that's what you did when you said:



There's really no reason to believe that we can't have Samus / ZSS, Ridley, and Dark Samus. "Not big enough to get 4 unique movesets" I think StarFox and Mother kind of blew all sorts of character caps based on "how big" a series is out of the water. Especially considering series like Donkey Kong have sold many many times more then both SF and Mother, and still Diddy was only added in Brawl.

My point is, you shouldn't have these silly caps, especially when you're using sales to back up your reasoning.

Star Fox and Mother are plagued by having similar movesets on all of their characters though. Or to rephrase, at least similar/identical specials and final smashes. Ness and Lucas have nearly the same specials, and Star Fox has 3 characters with identical specials. I put emphasis on the word "unique" a lot. A unique moveset takes a lot of time and resources, something that went more to characters like Dedede and Wario rather than Wolf and Lucas during Braw, most likely because they had priority because of popularity.

That's why I doubt Dark Samus would be able to get in with a completely unique moveset, Star Fox and Mother weren't big enough to warrant completely unique movesets, thus they're poor examples on your part. Dark Samus' chances of getting in as a clone are pretty much non-existant, considering the whole clone thing comes from a lack of time, as seen with all of the Melee clones, as well as Toon Link and Wolf (which are commonly known to be some of the last added characters in Brawl,) and they're rarely well received.

So no, Mother and Star Fox didn't blow away the character caps. I don't see how you can believe a lesser franchise would ever get as much attention as Mario or Pokémon. Pokémon got 3 unique movesets in one character, plus another unique character being Lucario, in just one game. Pokémon is worth dedicating so much time to because of its popularity, no way that would have happened if it had been on Star Fox's popularity level. As much as I hate to admit it, Metroid can't compete with that.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that's what it will have to come to, though. Ike's too popular and relevant worldwide to remove. Awakening is too important and successful to ignore. Fans should realize that if they want Roy back, that's how it would have to be. I see costume clones as having different voices and their own names. It's not like he's just a palette swap. The game will still call him "Roy" and he'd have a different voice from Marth.

Ike's game bombed in Japan and he still got in, so sales did not contribute to his inclusion. Awakening clearly deserves a lot of rep, but that does not mean Chrom HAS to be in because in a way, they can be represented character-wise with redesigns of Marth and Roy in the game. There are other ways to represent Awakening than with characters.

 

[RavenKingSage]

Ike's game bombed in the West and he still got in, so sales did not contribute to his inclusion. Awakening clearly deserves a lot of rep, but that does not mean Chrom HAS to be in because in a way, they can be represented character-wise with redesigns of Marth and Roy in the game. There are other ways to represent Awakening than with characters.

Ike's games may not have been that successful, but he's the most recurring Fire Emblem character in the western series releases.

It seems odd and unfair to use simple redesigns of non-Awakening characters to represent the most successful game in the series both critically and commercially.

 

[FalKoopa]

It seems odd and unfair to use simple redesigns of non-Awakening characters to represent the most successful game in the series both critically and commercially.

Well, it isn't limited to just that. Stages, trophies, stickers, music, assist trophies, items, etc are also ways to represent a game.

 

[RavenKingSage]

I agree. That's what I keep saying to YouTubers who insist on a roster where each generation of Pokémon has a playable character to represent it. The way I see it though, the newfound champion title of the Fire Emblem series deserves nothing less than to have its main protagonist playable. Chrom is very popular, too. (I know he can be made a costume clone just like Roy, but that goes back to my previous argument.)

 

[BKupa666]

But your argument against Dark Samus is a hypothetical one that really only the more hardcore fans seem to have a problem with. The argument AGAINST Dark Samus is pretty weak. But I think most arguments AGAINST characters are pretty weak to begin with.

Funnily enough, I'd argue the contrary, that hardcore fans would enjoy Dark Samus far more than casuals because they're capable of appreciating clones, Luigified or otherwise, for the few similarities they share, as well as their tweaked playstyles. In contrast, (based on my anecdotal observations) some casuals hate Dedede and Charizard for being 'clones' of Kirby and Bowser, not to speak of the other similar character pairs (or the one trio).

And just to clarify, I'm approaching Ridley vs. Dark Samus from the angle of 'which would draw fans more easily?' As far as likelihood goes, I'd still give Ridley the nod, but as both Chrono an I have said before, clone potential is a positive factor, not a negative one for Dark Samus, as well as for the likes of Bowser Jr., Dixie, and so on.

 

[Anonymous Smasher]

Funnily enough, I'd argue the contrary, that hardcore fans would enjoy Dark Samus far more than casuals because they're capable of appreciating clones, Luigified or otherwise, for the few similarities they share, as well as their tweaked playstyles. In contrast, (based on my anecdotal observations) some casuals hate Dedede and Charizard for being 'clones' of Kirby and Bowser, not to speak of the other similar character pairs (or the one trio).

And just to clarify, I'm approaching Ridley vs. Dark Samus from the angle of 'which would draw fans more easily?' As far as likelihood goes, I'd still give Ridley the nod, but as both Chrono an I have said before, clone potential is a positive factor, not a negative one for Dark Samus, as well as for the likes of Bowser Jr., Dixie, and so on.

There are people out there who believe Dedede and Charizard are clones of Kirby and Bowser?

Huh, learn something new every day.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Ike's games may not have been that successful, but he's the most recurring Fire Emblem character in the western series releases.

It seems odd and unfair to use simple redesigns of non-Awakening characters to represent the most successful game in the series both critically and commercially.

RavenKingSage! How's it going!?

 

[Anonymous Smasher]

RavenKingSage! How's it going!?

I could ask you the same question, dude!

 

[Autumn ♫]

YAY! Everyone in my Youtube Smash community is coming! Friends are always awesome. Next we'll have GoldenLotus and everyone else here.

Anyways with Dark Samus. Why can't we have both? Metroids big enough for 3 characters.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Neat new people.

Welcome, whoever you are!


On topic. Dark samus seems like she would be better off as a alt costume for samus. Sorta like Dark link, and dark pit. (nintendo needs to stop it with the dark people)

 

[FalKoopa]

I still want to see the Dark Bowser alt. :/

We also should get Shadow Mario, Possessed Peach from Paper Mario: TTYD, and other character's dark versions for alts.

And I also welcome the new posters to SmashBoards!

 

[Autumn ♫]

Ok, now I found GoldenLotus. My gosh, everyone's here today and it's not even my birthday.

 

[RavenKingSage]

I still want to see the Dark Bowser alt. :/

We also should get Shadow Mario, Possessed Peach from Paper Mario: TTYD, and other character's dark versions for alts.

And I also welcome the new posters to SmashBoards!

Good ideas, actually! I'm not sure if Paper counterparts would work the same movement wise though.

Yay, the YouTube based specs are coming!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So many new people!

Hi everyone!

Yeah... just dropped in to say hi...

Didn't have anything else to say so....