The real reason Japan is better than America

[Dr. Tuen]

USA uses stages to help their gay play style. While we try to bann stages to cut that BS down to size, you still have options to worry about.

What a gay meta knight, I will bann raindow.

hahaha. Fool, I still got brinstar and delfino. hell even halberd though it is not that serious.

And I also don't agree with them having the time to foucs on that cause of their stage list. cause I know damm well USA uses their stages and even try to play foul to win, and still lose to them. Which is why stages are just one big excuse. it is also not really hard to sit with someone and play on stages to practice stuff for a few hours or so.

And one big thing................IT'S A NEUTRAL! Not much happens on neutrals! You just fight. We play and practice so much stuff on other stages to increase our chances of winning. Japanese don't play on these stages alot, or at all. So for USA to take them there and still lose is just a big no.

If you have the time, you should check out my learning psychology posts.

Just as you said here, we use the stages and try to 'play foul to win', but to me that just says 'use stupid gimmicks'. Meanwhile, the Japanese are focusing on the most solid fundamental play that anyone has ever seen. These fundamental skills are transferable to other stages, but are easier to focus on when playing matches on the big 3 (FD, SV, BF).

You have also stated that nothing happens on neutrals. This is true, and it reinforces my point. When nothing happens, you must face the full force of your opponent. There are not gimmicks to hide behind, no crazy stages to pick, nothing. The Japanese are used to playing IC's on FD. How crazy is that? Have you ever actually LET an IC player counterpick FD? It's not fun. But if you learned how to manhandle IC's on FD, what hope could they possibly have anywhere else? Learning to play with these legitimate disadvantages, as opposed to [LOL MK ON BRINSTAR] is what gives the Japanese their strength. They focus on reads, responses, and crisp play.

 

[The Ben]

Way off topic, but can you please not use gay like that? It really makes the Smash community look unprofessional.

 

[Nike.]

But it is gay

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

I put in that we should replace it with taco.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If you have the time, you should check out my learning psychology posts.

Just as you said here, we use the stages and try to 'play foul to win', but to me that just says 'use stupid gimmicks'. Meanwhile, the Japanese are focusing on the most solid fundamental play that anyone has ever seen. These fundamental skills are transferable to other stages, but are easier to focus on when playing matches on the big 3 (FD, SV, BF).

You have also stated that nothing happens on neutrals. This is true, and it reinforces my point. When nothing happens, you must face the full force of your opponent. There are not gimmicks to hide behind, no crazy stages to pick, nothing. The Japanese are used to playing IC's on FD. How crazy is that? Have you ever actually LET an IC player counterpick FD? It's not fun. But if you learned how to manhandle IC's on FD, what hope could they possibly have anywhere else? Learning to play with these legitimate disadvantages, as opposed to [LOL MK ON BRINSTAR] is what gives the Japanese their strength. They focus on reads, responses, and crisp play.

Check this though

Japan plays on starters more then use

USA plays on counters more then Japan

starters its just a plain fight or brains.

final rundown japan and usa play on starters and counters so we are even in stage experience advantages.

And Japan beats us at both. if you are gonna make an excuse on the statrers, what would be the excuse for losing on stages we have more experience then the japanese?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Way off topic, but can you please not use gay like that? It really makes the Smash community look unprofessional.

But it is gay

Oh... so much could be said about the presentation of our community with respect to this. I personally wish that "gay" and "****" would be struck from the collective smash vocabulary... but there's little one person can do to change that, aside adapting the new behavior.

===

Check this though

Japan plays on starters more then use

USA plays on counters more then Japan

starters its just a plain fight or brains.

final rundown japan and usa play on starters and counters so we are even in stage experience advantages.

And Japan beats us at both. if you are gonna make an excuse on the statrers, what would be the excuse for losing on stages we have more experience then the japanese?

They beat us at both because they build solid fundamentals (the playing more on starters than us part) and transfer the skills to the other stages. A good example would be item control. Sure, you could take someone to a stage that makes it less important to truly know how to disarm a good Diddy, but if you played an insane number of matches vs ADHD on Final Destination in tournament, you could handle item control anywhere, even on a stage you've never faced a Diddy on before.

So in that example, your skill vs Diddy isn't transferring your character-stage knowledge, it's transferring your character-character knowledge. I believe that character-character knowledge is more significant than character-stage knowledge. Once your fundamentals are THAT strong, you'll maintain a lead even on 'cheap' stages. When your opponent goes to scrooge and plank, you can sit and wait for them.

 

[Cassio]

People in here are misrepresenting the argument and suggesting that anyones said the stages themselves make people better or worse.

 

[DMG]

Well actually that's what a lot of people are saying. Japan is better because stages like Halberd aren't in the picture and they get to focus more on "fundamentals". AKA getting better at the game and not focusing on abusing "stage gimmicks". That was imo the main point of the OP, to strike down the stage list so we get better instead of coming up with more ways to gay the other guy on CP's.

If stages have no real impact on USA vs Japan, then why gut the list down? Either having a lot of stages is fine, or it's preventing us from becoming better. If our stage list is hindering us from getting better, then you'd assume their stage list is better and that we'd benefit from using it.

Stage list bad? Benefit from theirs (theirs is better)

Stage list doesn't matter that much? Then don't gut it to hell.

 

[The Ben]

But the stages being on the list aren't what is making us worse, it's the way we think about the stages. You can have a large stage list and still focus on strong fundamentals.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Well actually that's what a lot of people are saying. Japan is better because stages like Halberd aren't in the picture and they get to focus more on "fundamentals". AKA getting better at the game and not focusing on abusing "stage gimmicks". That was imo the main point of the OP, to strike down the stage list so we get better instead of coming up with more ways to gay the other guy on CP's.

If stages have no real impact on USA vs Japan, then why gut the list down? Either having a lot of stages is fine, or it's preventing us from becoming better. If our stage list is hindering us from getting better, then you'd assume their stage list is better and that we'd benefit from using it.

Stage list bad? Benefit from theirs (theirs is better)

Stage list doesn't matter that much? Then don't gut it to hell.

I think it matters for the US but not for Japan because of the order we learned the game's facets.

Japan went Truncated Stage List --> Solid Fundamentals --> Other Stage Applications

USA went Full Stage List --> Fundamentals + Gimmicks --> Considering Truncated Stage List

Because of our scattered focus on Fundamentals and Gimmicks, we have not managed to hone our fundamentals as well as the Japanese have.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Thats the thing though, Japan beat us at our turf of stages we pratice alot. So I still don't see how that just makes it an excuse. Also keep in mind that when the first match starts, that first win is important. hat way if you get countered game 2 hard, you have game three at your favor and win. So that first win is a must and it always happens on starters. Which I say we play more and focus on then counters. Just like japan. They may play it more than use but again, nothing happens on starters. Nothing to really practice there.

Yet again, what excuse usa has for losing on the counterpick stages and gay styles they use there in which japan don't do are play alot on/against. I want a valid reason for this. We lose to their stages. Yet we lose to ours as well? Why?

 

[DeLux]

I was under the impression that standard practice for most American players featured only starters.

Very rarely do people play for fun where the entire stage list randoms in my experience.

 

[kailo34ce]

Yet again, what excuse usa has for losing on the counterpick stages and gay styles they use there in which japan don't do are play alot on/against. I want a valid reason for this. We lose to their stages. Yet we lose to ours as well? Why?

i think they are trying to say every match you play on a weird stage is a waste of time? and japan doesnt waste their time with it and dont focus on weirdness?

their solid logic isnt really there besides "hey they placed higher lets copy them"

instead of "hey lets just play more and get better"

 

[DMG]

So we should kill the stage list to focus on fundamentals even if you're capable of doing so on a fuller stage list? I think you can create a "wave of change" as far as what to focus on is concerned without getting rid of basically everything. You don't have to gut the stage list for people to go "Hey we need to get better on Neutrals AND better overall at this game".

If we're not capable of playing a game with Halberd legal without losing composure and logic and becoming inferior mindless scum hellbent on only finding ways to gay people with the stage, then hell we're gonna lose regardless of whether we ban it or not. Ya know? Sure, for RC Brinstar etc get rid of that ****. But stages like Frigate/etc are not the core of our problems. We're not transforming into a waste of competitive time by playing on more than 6 stages.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Thats the thing though, Japan beat us at our turf of stages we pratice alot. So I still don't see how that just makes it an excuse. Also keep in mind that when the first match starts, that first win is important. hat way if you get countered game 2 hard, you have game three at your favor and win. So that first win is a must and it always happens on starters. Which I say we play more and focus on then counters. Just like japan. They may play it more than use but again, nothing happens on starters. Nothing to really practice there.

Yet again, what excuse usa has for losing on the counterpick stages and gay styles they use there in which japan don't do are play alot on/against. I want a valid reason for this. We lose to their stages. Yet we lose to ours as well? Why?

I stand by the reason being 'solid fundamentals'. Those take a very long time to learn and the Japanese have plenty of focus on that with their stage list choice. When you have the basics down, gimmicks are like simple amendments to your skill set.

The Japanese, for example, have experience with IC's on FD, since there are no stage bans. If you then just let them know that, "hey, on Delfino there's a walkoff portion... don't get grabbed vs DDD", they can utilize their strong fundamental knowledge to that stage.

If you say there is a stage specific infinite that their character can use, I'd bet that they'd be able to utilize it in under a day because the fundamental character control is just that good.

===

So in essence, they beat us on our counterpicks because fundamental knowledge requires hours of practice to perfect and utilize in various configurations (more aerial combat vs more ground combat, projectile and item techniques, etc), while stage gimmicks are facts that can be learned and integrated into gameplay in a relatively short amount of time.

So we should kill the stage list to focus on fundamentals even if you're capable of doing so on a fuller stage list? I think you can create a "wave of change" as far as what to focus on is concerned without getting rid of basically everything. You don't have to gut the stage list for people to go "Hey we need to get better on Neutrals AND better overall at this game".

If we're not capable of playing a game with Halberd legal without losing composure and logic and becoming inferior mindless scum hellbent on only finding ways to gay people with the stage, then hell we're gonna lose regardless of whether we ban it or not. Ya know? Sure, for RC Brinstar etc get rid of that ****. But stages like Frigate/etc are not the core of our problems. We're not transforming into a waste of competitive time by playing on more than 6 stages.

Yes, we should kill the stage list. We're all becoming the 'jack of all trades, master of none' types of players, even on a pretty high level (with the aside of a handful of players). We commonly can't win on gimmick stages because of the focus on the mindless gimmicks employed (I refuse to use the phrase 'gay gameplay'). This redirects our focus, and the human mind has a hard time considering more than two variables at once. If you have basic stage components and the other player, then we're doing good. If you add in the crazy gimmicks, your focus now jumps around between the three.

 

[Cassio]

The point is that Japan used our CP's better than we did. A lot of the stuff they learned on BF, SV, FD, they turned around and used it on the counterpicks. Weve been using our counterpicks for 4 years.

I was under the impression that standard practice for most American players featured only starters.

Very rarely do people play for fun where the entire stage list randoms in my experience.

This used to be true, but hasnt been for a few years in my region at least.

 

[kailo34ce]

ew people play brawl for fun in your region?

 

[Tesh]

I was under the impression that standard practice for most American players featured only starters.

Very rarely do people play for fun where the entire stage list randoms in my experience.

This is so true. Of all the things I do in friendlies (camping, planking, intentionally timing people out), the moment I try to pick something like Ps2, Brinstar (which is horrible for my character), Delfino or even Halberd, I get complaints. Americans DO practice primarily on static stages and its probably part of the reason they suck on CPs. Japan practiced hard before Apex on all of these stages, so its pretty ******** when people suggest that Otori was so good at BF/SV/FD that he suddenly learned how to play on frigate and delfino in the middle of a set.

 

[John12346]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the first two matches of a set usually played on Smashville, followed by a salty runback to Smashville?

 

[DMG]

Japan could have also played on those stages outside of tournament. DUN DUN DUNNNNNN


Loool either way its whatever. Leave the stage list, shrink it, either one works. BUT believing that shrinking the stage list down to 3-6 stages will fix it all would be as silly as the people who don't learn the game and turn to MK CP's on Rainbow etc. If you're gonna shrink the stage list, you better be prepared to actually get better, not just assume that the change itself means everything will work now. OH stage list is smaller, now I will do better/now we can beat them guyz!1!!!

Oh **** I suck on Neutrals. ......

 

[tekkie]

pretty sure the japanese won because theyre better

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Dr. Tuen]

If you're gonna shrink the stage list, you better be prepared to actually get better, not just assume that the change itself means everything will work now. OH stage list is smaller, now I will do better/now we can beat them guyz!1!!!
.

This is the critical point to wrap up everything I've said about the focus on fundamentals, actually. The change isn't easy. It will require legitimate work to play against Diddy on FD, or IC's on FD. These fundamental skills I've been going on about will take a long time to learn and it will be frustrating.

This whole thing started when the USA got butthurt about Japan winning. If we want to get on their level, we're going to have to work for it.

 

[DMG]

Why not only play on 1 stage in the game then? That should leave you super focused.

No seriously, why aren't we playing on BF/FD/SV only? I mean there are other acceptable stages out there, but we want to get better right? And the only way to do that is to shrink the stage list (because we can't focus on the game otherwise, darn Castle Siege). SO, we could go into Hyperbolic Time Chamber mode if we only used FD or BF or SV and saved ALL that time compounded into 1.

BF only legal stage, guarantee you everyone's spacing will improve.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Why not only play on 1 stage in the game then? That should leave you super focused.

No seriously, why aren't we playing on BF/FD/SV only? I mean there are other acceptable stages out there, but we want to get better right?

The idea of transfer does apply to stages too, just not as much as fundamental skill. Basic platform play necessitates at least two stages (FD & SV or FD and BF, something like that).

 

[DMG]

FD BF

best stage list for getting better. Hop to it America

We also should limit CPing or get rid of it entirely.

 

[DeLux]

Adopting the Japanese Ruleset can't possibly be the way to go assuming the goal is to become better than them.

It'll succeed in getting us to emulate them, but not surpassing them. Ideally we would need a superior ruleset overall. Something that encompasses both their value of competitive neutrality in player vs. player and our value in depth.

I've been working on solutions to achieve this, but by in large the current established ruleset isn't something people really want to change.

If we want to beat them, we'd do away with our system entirely imo

 

[kailo34ce]

pretty sure the japanese won because theyre better

this guy is right, also if we ban stages we should ban mk. it would make us all better, i mean no matter what ur char is worse than him so why waste time learning the matchup, it takes away from actual fighting because you are just getting timed out and etc.

this pro stage ban logic!

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Adopting the Japanese Ruleset can't possibly be the way to go assuming the goal is to become better than them.

It'll succeed in getting us to emulate them, but not surpassing them. Ideally we would need a superior ruleset overall. Something that encompasses both their value of competitive neutrality in player vs. player and our value in depth.

I've been working on solutions to achieve this, but by in large the current established ruleset isn't something people really want to change.

If we want to beat them, we'd do away with our system entirely imo

I think the thought pattern is the most important thing (small stage list to learn fundamentals, then expand from there). The effort is what will differentiate one region from the other. Statistically speaking, if we stuck to their method of play, we'd win via numbers... as one of our players (we have a larger pool to work from) would adapt this so well, he'd surpass even the Japanese.

We could use the depth of stages to our advantage, but not before we get back to the basics.

 

[DeLux]

Or we go one step further in what makes them better than us and come up with a competitively synchronized system instead of the polarized atrocity we have now as a counterpick system.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Or we go one step further in what makes them better than us and come up with a competitively synchronized system instead of the polarized atrocity we have now as a counterpick system.

I like the synchronization, though on an international level that's unrealizable. I think it's easier, politically to start from what they have (and actually convincing people to use it), and going from there. To me, the truncated ruleset is the paramount part of this. Same with the removal of stage bans.

I, however, have little to no influence here. So if you create a system that's the JP Rules + some flair and actually get it to stick, I'd be happy with that too.

===

Anyways, I'm off to a coalition of graduate employees... thing. [FREE FOOD, GRAD STUDENT WANT]. Thanks to everyone who seriously considered my points of argumentation.

I'll come back later tonight and continue if people are interested.

 

[Tesh]

this guy is right, also if we ban stages we should ban mk. it would make us all better, i mean no matter what ur char is worse than him so why waste time learning the matchup, it takes away from actual fighting because you are just getting timed out and etc.

this pro stage ban logic!

If we ban MK, people will focus harder on the basics with less available characters and not leaning on CP gimmicks like Tornado and Shuttle Loop. Then when we go to Japan, we will suddenly be amazing at the MK matchup and playing MK.

 

[Dexident]

I also would like to introduce the notion that Japanese people in their culture, and throughout their schooling have been taught excellence. It's not just in the video games they've been playing, but just about EVERYTHING Japanese is more precise and rigorous than what we do in America.

All that's been discussed are true and valid points, but what it boils down to is that Japanese have it engrained in their cultural psyche to be the best, as to not let their country down.

In order to beat them we will need to just be better, stages and counterpicking is not the root of the problem. Relentless practice and rigorous matching (probably actually against them) is what our top players need to do to match their skill.

Meeting up once or twice a year to exchange blows wont ever be enough for us to adapt to their play style and their advanced ability.

 

[John12346]

I was actually going to say something like what Tesh said, but to a less trolly effect.

Wouldn't banning MK cause the metagames of the other 36 characters to develop or something, because then a ****load of characters who were previously oppressed by MK would have a chance to shine in tournament play? Maybe we'd find a few masters of each character and awesome ATs and new matchup strategies and stuff like that...?

 

[Jonas]

It's just funny how they were never the best at Melee.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If we ban MK, people will focus harder on the basics with less available characters and not leaning on CP gimmicks like Tornado and Shuttle Loop. Then when we go to Japan, we will suddenly be amazing at the MK matchup and playing MK.

Are you kidding me? Players will just character CP on CP stages and most players will have to guess right on the double blind to win the set.Also, you can't beat MK if you don't practice against MK

 

[DMG]

I mean we could still play MK outside of tournament

Guize

And Tuen, it will not work that way. It's much harder to reintroduce stages back into play than take them out. If we "temp" removed a ton of stages for a year, when the time came up you'd have a lot of "Well why are they coming back? Wasn't something wrong with them before?" "Well no, we just wanted to get better" "Can't we get better even with those stages around?" "Nope, we needed them gone." "Well what's the point of bringing them back then if they are only holding us back?"

That's EXACTLY how it will turn out lool. If you shrink the stage list on a national level, it's close to permanent. So decide now whether playing the game on 6- stages is overall best, cause reverting back will probably be impossible.


Jebus: Hey can't people do that already, the only difference is that MK is around to scare people into not doing it or using MK himself? Double Blind is even more of a nightmare with MK around because along with having RPS throughout the cast, you have that 1 option that won't blatantly lose to anything while beating out a lot. If you lose Game 1, you still have to worry about a CP Game 3 with MK or another character around. Removing MK doesn't change or negatively amplify that aspect at all. Unless you think Double MK game 1 blind pick is better than people having to WORRY about what the other guy might pick.


If stages hold us back, you get rid of them. Forever.

 

[kailo34ce]

people fight mk more than the number of matches they play on the basic neutral stages, and middle tier chars still all lost to mk, mk has been 30%+ of results aince day 1. and guess what, people didnt learn the matchup outside the fact of things that work vs how gay you get camped, the same **** will still happen, you either win or lose and you dont learn anything, mk hasnt changed since the first year just people have gotten more liberal with controlling him. banning mk wouldnt effect how well you do vs him. it would make you able to go into a tournament with a larger spread of chars and not have to worry about your "fundamentals" being tornadod and upbed by mk.

(using logic of people who want to ban stages)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I mean we could still play MK outside of tournament

There would be no point. You don't see players train their Ubers to get ready for an OU tournament in Pokemon. I don't think that there's a problem with the Apex rule set. If Japan can adapt and beat us using our rule set, then I think we just need to get better with our rule set.

Also, I'm not saying it doesn't happen with MK, but banning MK isn't going to make the CP/ double blind system any better.

 

[kailo34ce]

wish brawl wasnt so gimmicky. the only thing thats balanced about it is mk dittos