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The real reason Japan is better than America

Discussion in 'Brawl Competitive Discussion' started by Sensei Seibrik, Jan 11, 2012.

  1. Cassio

    Cassio Brawl Backroom Member

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    I very much agree the ben (not sure about beating japan though), but I dont think the japanese ruleset is that bad either. On stream some of the commentators were saying allbrawl is rather competitive as well, has produced consistent results, and it seems to be occuring more frequently; so there may be hope in the future for item play. Personally I think its a better and more timely side event than doubles.

    I think whats bad is this attempt to try and combine conservative with non-conservative, its brought up way more issues than any other ruleset would have (timeouts, planking, powerful tactics, etc.)
  2. Tesh

    Tesh Smash Hero

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    Not going to read this thread, but there are obviously alot of differences between Japan and the U.S. metagames and tournament scenes. You just picked one that implies MK should be kept legal.

    Maybe Otori wrecked our **** cuz he took his shoes off or won 0$ at every tournament in Japan. Maybe its the ****ing climate over there or the fact that they are Asians.

    I think its just dumb to pick up their ruleset because they beat us.
  3. Masky

    Masky Smash Master

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    You're right... we might as well give up because we can't help those things then, right?

    No. We should change and improve what we can in order to be the best we can. If you go to a tournament and lose, you don't think to yourself "Oh, everyone else in my region is just inherently better than me. Might as well just not change anything and keep losing," do you? It'd be insane for America to keep along the same path after getting exposed at APEX.
  4. Flayl

    Flayl Smash Hero

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    That's not even close to addressing his point. Don't straw man.
  5. Masky

    Masky Smash Master

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    What???? I addressed his point perfectly. His point was that Japan might be better at Brawl because of factors that we can't change so we might as well give up.
  6. SaveMeJebus

    SaveMeJebus Smash Master

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    They must be doing something right if they can come over here and beat us using our own rule set.There rule set relies more on skill than it does on the stage itself
  7. Flayl

    Flayl Smash Hero

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    Masky: Where in his post does he say to give up? Stop using straw mans. His point is it's not immediately obvious that it's because of the ruleset they improved, there are a bunch of other factors.
  8. Masky

    Masky Smash Master

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    The ruleset is the only changeable factor. Free tournaments aren't feasible in the USA and people can't turn Asian at will.
  9. The Ben

    The Ben Smash Journeyman

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    Well, that actually might be the case. Are you suggesting we move all U.S. Smash players into a strip of land smaller than California making it easier to commute to every event and get together for training? Perhaps we should use time travel to change our cultural conditioning? Change the U.S.'s diet and exercise to include more meals and activities that stimulate brain activity?
  10. Laem

    Laem Brawl Backroom Member

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    I find it funny how the factor 'changing the general mindset' doesn't even occur to you.
  11. infiniteV115

    infiniteV115 Smash Hero

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    I really hate how so many people want to switch to a conservative stage list just because Japan did well at Apex.
  12. Cassio

    Cassio Brawl Backroom Member

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    1) read Tuens post

    2) Its not just because of Japan. Not sure if you were around for 08 but the big argument before MK was conservative vs non-conservative stagelist. Many of the stronger regions wanted a simple stagelist while places like TX and the Midwest fought to increase the amount of stages. Eventually MLG happened and people just gave up on the argument. Now pro-banners are arguing partly that MK should be banned because he breaks stages, and after seeing the japanese, areas that wanted a conservative stagelist all along are ready to give the middle finger to stages they never wanted in the first place.
  13. Twinkie

    Twinkie .

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    I don't know why the first thing that comes to everybody's mind when they're told to "get better" is to change the ruleset.
  14. Masky

    Masky Smash Master

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    I AM suggesting that the USA change its attitude.

    Many top players I know in FL all have the same basic attitude: improve through whatever means possible. Whether that involves practicing and practicing, losing money in MMs, or helping others improve so they can be better competition.

    However, when you get down to the medium-high or medium levels of play, that attitude changes. Most people at that level can only think "I must WIN at any cost." In other words, they're looking for the quickest shortcut to victory. And they won't see self-improvement as a way around their obstacles. These are the people who hope for easy brackets, write off all their losses as flukes, constantly sandbag in friendlies to not reveal gimmicky playstyles, try to switch to an underdeveloped MK for easy wins, or want MK banned because they think he's unbeatable. And these players will remain at that lower level as long as they think that way.

    It is the second group of people who will say "Oh, Japan is just inherently good and we can't do anything about it...". It is the first group of people who will say "What can we do to be as good as or better than Japan?" And taking a lesson away from their ruleset is one of those things.
  15. The Ben

    The Ben Smash Journeyman

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    But is it Japan's rule set that makes them good? It could be their dedication and sinking more hours into the game, or as I've suggested multiple times the ease of access.
  16. Tesh

    Tesh Smash Hero

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    Why can't we play for only the glory? Think of it this way, in the US, you could be content to be a not-even-close second or 3rd in a region because you still place in the money and get a prize, but over there the only winner is the guy who actually wins. They probably also have less corruption among their top players with splitting and forfeiting. Not to mention the great motivation to always face better players, rather than settling to be "a king among peasants" like top players in some U.S. regions.

    I can make up theories for why we should do stuff too.
    So after the character variety at MLG supported the other side of the argument, they shut up until a tournament happened that backed them up? Whats your point?
  17. Tuen

    Tuen Smash Ace

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    Alright, it looks like my argument caught on a little bit, at least! I may write a blog (with referenced work) about it later. I don't know how well a hard and fast scientific approach will appeal to the community, but this is literally synced with some of my research, so I figure... why not?

    You guys already know that I think this cognitive load problem is one of the greatest issues (i.e. too many factors to think about is bad, so reduce stages).

    I would list this, intrinsic motivation, as the other great problem in American Smash. Unfortunately, I don't have a fancy pants cognitive science related idea as to how we'd go about fixing that.

    Though someone did mention that the Japanese WiFi system actually rocks... so it may help when "practice" doesn't also mean "planning, money, time, etc". The most important of which is "Money". I have to travel to get practice outside of the 2-ish Corvallis players. -.-;.
  18. Cassio

    Cassio Brawl Backroom Member

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    Ive seen half a dozen people make posts in the last few pages asking why people would consider limiting the stage list to get better, and none of them referenced Tuens post. You guys are asking a question thats been answered elaborately.

    Tesh: No, they gave up because they were forced to play on MLG stages. My point is people want the ruleset, and its not just because of Apex.
  19. Tuen

    Tuen Smash Ace

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    Then it's time for a shameless repost! For those who haven't seen it, here's a link to the stage reduction problem answered with respect to some grounded scientific principals.

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13918377#post13918377
  20. Sensei Seibrik

    Sensei Seibrik Smash Hero

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    Personally i think the geography has something to with why we play for money. I agree we should play for more than JUST the money, as im sure some people do, but consider the geography.

    We already agreed that Japan has a more condensed group of players, so its safe to assume getting to tournies is easier for japenese players in general.

    We're SO widespread that expecting people to fly from cali to NY for "glory" is a little on the extreme side. I know i wouldn't have been as interested in going to apex if money wasn't involved, and i had a free plane ticket!

    In any case, if we took money out of tournies completely, it would generally kill the scene on a national level. changing some of the rules would keep things competative, freshen things up, and even make MK less of a general problem. I know "its gay to remove stages just because of one character" but we'd be getting multiple benefits, such as a more focused way of self improvement, and the top players who main mk won't be as encouraged to quit, meanwhile the players that complain about mk already know they'll have way less to complain about if he can only take them to bf/sv/fd.

    I only wonder why people are quicker to ban a CHARACTER as apposed to banning the levels that put him over the edge in the first place?

    You guys complain that brawl isn't competative BECAUSE we have to change rules to make it so. Complain MK is broken BECAUSE we have to ban stages to make him fair.

    Why is that a problem? We shouldn't be worried about whether a game is inherently competative/balanced if it has the potential to become so.
  21. The Ben

    The Ben Smash Journeyman

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    Different economic circumstances. Transportation to majors is really cheap. Imagine how easy it'd be for someone in California to attend every major and minor event in California if there were low/no entry fee. A monthly bus pass and you're set. At most there's a few hours travel each way. That is what it's like to game in Japan. As opposed to America where you have to travel long distances to get events, pay gas/plane ticket (depending), and if gas the maintenance on your vehicle, oftentimes you need to spend money for lodging on top of that because you just spent 2 days on the road and are dead tired or the event will take multiple days and you can't drive 2 days back the other direction between days, etc.
  22. Sensei Seibrik

    Sensei Seibrik Smash Hero

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    reposting to be on new page

    Personally i think the geography has something to with why we play for money. I agree we should play for more than JUST the money, as im sure some people do, but consider the geography.

    We already agreed that Japan has a more condensed group of players, so its safe to assume getting to tournies is easier for japenese players in general.

    We're SO widespread that expecting people to fly from cali to NY for "glory" is a little on the extreme side. I know i wouldn't have been as interested in going to apex if money wasn't involved, and i had a free plane ticket!
    ********
    In any case, if we took money out of tournies completely, it would generally kill the scene on a national level. changing some of the rules would keep things competative, freshen things up, and even make MK less of a general problem. I know "its gay to remove stages just because of one character" but we'd be getting multiple benefits, such as a more focused way of self improvement, and the top players who main mk won't be as encouraged to quit, meanwhile the players that complain about mk already know they'll have way less to complain about if he can only take them to bf/sv/fd.

    I only wonder why people are quicker to ban a CHARACTER as apposed to banning the levels that put him over the edge in the first place?

    You guys complain that brawl isn't competative BECAUSE we have to change rules to make it so. Complain MK is broken BECAUSE we have to ban stages to make him fair.

    Why is that a problem? We shouldn't be worried about whether a game is inherently competative/balanced if it has the potential to become so.
  23. Sensei Seibrik

    Sensei Seibrik Smash Hero

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    p.s. if someone (multiple people) can PM me whatever posts they feel best represented their side, i'll see which ones can be put in the first post. whatever you guys found most memorable. Thanks.
  24. zmx

    zmx Smash Lord

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    Just use Tuen's post. It was a very compelling argument for stages. Though I think it was posted in the other topic.

    Also I think there should be some free tournys with no prizes just to test how many people turn out to them. Now of course they'd still understandably have to pay the venue free.
  25. infiniteV115

    infiniteV115 Smash Hero

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    If such a tourney happened, I'd probably use it to brush up on my secondary.
  26. Sensei Seibrik

    Sensei Seibrik Smash Hero

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    free tournies are very possible for locals and such, and happen often at smashfests.


    organizing a national free tourny would be a waste of time
  27. Nike.

    Nike. Brawl Backroom Member

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    Another thing to keep in mind is that the Japenese Ruleset doesn't allow bans during a set.

    By adopting that part of their ruleset:

    • Metaknight still has Delfino
    • DDD gets Delfino
    • Diddy, IC's, Falco, and Pikachu all get FD
    • Sonic gets Yoshi's
    • *insert character gets so and so stage*

    There is nothing you could do about it, either. I'm already salty at the thought of Espy taking me to Yoshi's constantly lol.
  28. Cassio

    Cassio Brawl Backroom Member

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    I think either free or low cost entry fees for locals are a great idea. Even better would be if it were put into the venue fee instead to do things like provide advertising, drinks or food, a better atmosphere, etc. Small prizes would still be good though. I dont know how pros would feel about this though and maybe Im just being scrubby, but imagine if even half the prize money went to making the tournament better instead.
  29. Sensei Seibrik

    Sensei Seibrik Smash Hero

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    i kinda like the pot being used to get stuff for the competitors idea
  30. Tuen

    Tuen Smash Ace

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    I actually like this. America is used to mitigating the other player's strengths via stage ban control. This forces you, the winner, to face the opposition's full force in game 2.
  31. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    While this seems like a good read, I am gonna have to disagree on why japan beat the USA.

    The reason I feel japan won is cause of how creative they are. The USA just focus on getting money and having their name stand out to be some one in the community. For cause of that people just wanna camp all tay and play gay. time people out. All they think about. The japanese are not like that. They don't care for money. They care about having fun even in the most intense moments where even something just as a title or a tourny win is on the line. No fear, no pressure, just going in.

    The play around with their characters learning things and testing things out. making **** up. You tell me who in the USA would have thought of the D-throw to double up-B with team meta knight (bet you now when tournies still have meta legal people will be on the **** now.) Or the foot stool save with team meta/olimar that rain and brood did at 2010 apex. USA does not even begin to wonder the possiblilites of these actions and meta game advancement. Only camping, timing people out (and now infinites).

    So for you to actually blame stages as an excuse for japan wining is just no good. They won cause they don't focus on one aspect of the game like the USA does. if the USA actually gave more or a damm with the meta game and thier characters in stead of sticking to simple things all the time, then maybe this would have never happen. Give japan their respects. Stages just as Netural (which we play on more then counter picks since it is basically the first stage we start out with in tournaments) is just an excuse to me and not admitting the real problem.

    Sorry dude, I disagree with this thread 100%
  32. kailo34ce

    kailo34ce Smash Lord

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    this post is terrible. holy crap
  33. Exceladon City

    Exceladon City Smash Hero

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    My theory and then I'm out of here before it becomes a ****storm.

    The reason Japan beat us is because they are better at the game from the basics down to the advanced techniques. Because they want to excel with their character and prove themselves to be the best. They don't play for money; as it's considered gambling. They play for respect amongst their community - which means being the best player in your town, city, prefecture and being the best with that character(s). We in America, play for money. Which means after awhile when skill doesn't help us all the way, we have to resort to playing for the W in the least skillful ways possible. Whether it be through planking, timeouts or relying on the stage to carry you to victory.

    Stage Choices
    Alot of people scoff at their 3 stage list, because "it's not competitive enough" or it's "scrubby". The Japanese don't want anything outside of player skill to determine a victor. Sure, they may have lost on their opponent's CP but when they ran it back to their original stage, mad people got put on blast.

    Adapting
    The Japanese adapt so much faster than any American player I've played against. It wasn't uncommon for the to get beat game 1 and then proceed to bodybag their opponents games 2 and 3. They adapted in everything from stages to playstyles. Nietono vs Nairo in winner's went something like this: Nairo runs Olimar Match-Up.exe and wins game 1 convincingly with a 2 stock. Nietono proceeds to set-up his download process games 2 and 3. Nietono beats Nairo barely game 2. Nairo goes to Delfino (A CP stage) and proceeds to beat Nietono convincingly again with another 2 stock. They play again in loser's Nietono has him downloaded from their previous match and makes it look absolutely terrible.

    Basics and ATs
    The Japanese are spot on with everything as far as basics go. From shield pressure to frametraps, they have it all dialed. They learn the usefulness of each and every attack and try to utilize them. How many MKs have you seen use Dimensional Cape the way Otori and Kakera do? Their buffering is unlike anything I've ever seen. Flawless. I was watching Nairo vs Otori with Orion and I'm sure his tech skill with MK is about on par with the Japanese. He pointed out how well Otori buffered everything. Witnessing buffered Shuttle Loop OOS when Nairo SL'd his shield was more than enough for me.

    The top level American players have gotten complacent with their skills. They've gotten complacent with being "good enough" to win in their region. So long as they are able to place in the money, they couldn't care less about getting better so long as they don't get worse. So maybe this was the reality check that alot of people needed to see that just because you're a "top level" player that you've still got SOMEONE (whether it be one person or 5), SOMEWHERE who is better than you and working to be better than they were the day before. Sure, this is coming from PNCATMPlayer8675 but it's the truth.
  34. Tuen

    Tuen Smash Ace

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    The Japanese have the opportunity to focus on that because of their truncated stage list. They don't have funny gimmicks and bull**** to deal with, just player 1 vs player 2. We, as Americans, tend to heavily utilize stage bans to mitigate the other players options before the game even starts. We don't want to deal with the full spectrum of skills another player has if we can help it.
  35. Cassio

    Cassio Brawl Backroom Member

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    As I said earlier, one doesnt exclude the other. Could be stages + what you said. I agree with your third paragraph especially though.
  36. DMG

    DMG Brawl Backroom Member

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    Dthrow Double Shuttle Loop is old lol. Dphat came up with that a long time ago, and before him someone may have come up with it like M2K in late 08. Or in teams, using footstool after throws to link into locks or combos.
  37. kailo34ce

    kailo34ce Smash Lord

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    maybe japan did good because neitono or whoever manages his pikmin like every olimar should the day they start playing olimar and yet none do, or the fact that maybe they are just more skilled. (at least the few who placed high) maybe the better players won.

    nah who am i kidding everyone in this country sucks because frigate is a legal stage.
  38. DMG

    DMG Brawl Backroom Member

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    NO WE SUCK BECAUSE CASTLE SIEGE IS LEGAL GET IT RIGHT AND GET RID OF IT ALL

    rawr
  39. The Ben

    The Ben Smash Journeyman

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    This point has come up multiple times and I'm going to call BS. If you can make money doing something better than other people that would give you more reason to do it. Money isn't a reason they're better than us. In fact it probably contributes to why they come over here to play in majors. Free tournaments have their place; they're a good way to get prepped for the majors. They're good for building fundamentals and staying consistent. The two work side by side, not against each other.
  40. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    USA uses stages to help their gay play style. While we try to bann stages to cut that BS down to size, you still have options to worry about.

    What a gay meta knight, I will bann raindow.

    hahaha. Fool, I still got brinstar and delfino. hell even halberd though it is not that serious.

    And I also don't agree with them having the time to foucs on that cause of their stage list. cause I know damm well USA uses their stages and even try to play foul to win, and still lose to them. Which is why stages are just one big excuse. it is also not really hard to sit with someone and play on stages to practice stuff for a few hours or so.

    And one big thing................IT'S A NEUTRAL! Not much happens on neutrals! You just fight. We play and practice so much stuff on other stages to increase our chances of winning. Japanese don't play on these stages alot, or at all. So for USA to take them there and still lose is just a big no.

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