The real reason Japan is better than America

[TheLastCacely]

All im saying is, Winners finals could have gone either way, and ur crazy if u dont believe so.

nairo already beat nientono once, add that to the hype he would be riding if he beat otori and was already in GF.... this could have gone either way.

I understand some things need to be changed.

But why does it take the japan coming over here and doing good for yall to see we need to change?

had the coin flipped heads instead of tails, NO ONE would be saying we need new stage rules, or a better mindset etc. ( We would not even have this thread or nay like it.)

last apex m2k lost to japans olimar, who was not even considered their best....

But that was ok because larry won the whole thing, so no one was like " Oh we need a new rule set." or " man the japanese are on another level, we need a diff mindset."

but this time, m2k loses to japans best ROB ( a match up i think is easier for ROB then it is for oli)

and nairo does not make it to GF ( even though he beat their supposedly best player, Nientono) and now everyone wants a change?

hmmmm...

 

[Ruuku]

There are far too many factors involved in comparing Japanese and American mindsets when it comes to competitive video games. As a matter of fact, comparing America and Japanese mindsets outside the world of competitive video gaming already is rather complicated.

With that said, I think that all competitive communities throughout the world have the "play to win" mindset. But the priorities set to get there seem to have a large effect on the outcome. I certainly believe that you can find the same arguably counter productive characteristics (individualism, delusions of grandeur, segregation, discrimination, derogatory language, etc) in the American Smash communities that you can find in any other American society. I also think that the American Smash scenes have there own issues that may no be directly related to other American communities.

So I say it could be a good idea to look at your own communities and how to improve them in its rules, expectations, and the way the game is played. Before thinking about changing the rules only, take a minute to think about why we play on the stages we play on, why Metaknight has completely dominated the American scene, and why he suddenly has been banned after 3-4 years being legal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

had the coin flipped heads instead of tails, NO ONE would be saying we need new stage rules, or a better mindset etc. ( We would not even have this thread or nay like it.)

No ****. You know why? Because then it would be business as usual. If there hadn't been a terrorist attack on 9/11, you think the headline would have read, "No terrorist attacks today"? No, that would be stupid.

last apex m2k lost to japans olimar, who was not even considered their best....

But larry won the whole thing, so no one was like " Oh we need a new rule set." or " man the japanese are on another level, we need a diff mindset."

but this time, m2k loses to japans best ROB ( a match up i think is easier for ROB then it is for oli)

and nairo does not make it to GF ( even though he beat their supposedly best player, Nientono) and now everyone wants a change?

The difference is the degree. Brood got second, but we thought Japan was sending their best, it was kind of a fluke, etc... This time, Otori and Nietono got incredibly convincing first and second, destroying essentially everyone except Nairo.

 

[*CT*]

Another important point:

It's illegal to run tournaments for money in Japan, because of this money can't be an incentive. Because money isn't an incentive their motives for the most part can't be destructive to competetive play. They play to get better and they play for the love of the game. Splitting can't happen, forfeiting most likely won't happen, bracket rigging most likely won't happen. Why? Because no money is on the line, they are playing for honor, they have no real reason to do any of those things.

This is probably why they are better, cause they aren't doing it for the money until they come here and when they come here they want to make sure that they at least break even for that airplane flight ;o

EDIT: I mean I'd love to go to some "free" tournaments, but I doubt any would even want to take part in that.

What we really should do is make the "perfect" stage and have it uploaded on every wii at competitions, did anyone ever think of that option. Or make a certain number of various custom stages, maybe not just one.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think people r taking this waaaaaaaayyy to far. like... we didnt even get destroyed. Nairo was winning in winners finals.... but hes young, got excited, predictable, etc. i mean this tourney could have gone to america just as easy as it went to japan. i dont think japan was the clear victor.

I wholeheartedly agree with this

Japans best is pretty much on the same level as NAs. They just won out this time. As close as these matches were, a difference in any 3 frames or so could have drastically altered the results in either direction. They really aren't vastly better the way people seem to assume. That's why 25% of the people that came from japan didn't make it out of pools when they explicitly sent their best players

 

[~ Gheb ~]

KID, the difference between your good posts [the one earlier] and your terrible ones [this one] is hard to comprehend. How do you do that?

 

[Tommy_G]

This is probably why they are better, cause they aren't doing it for the money until they come here and when they come here they want to make sure that they at least break even for that airplane flight ;o

EDIT: I mean I'd love to go to some "free" tournaments, but I doubt any would even want to take part in that.

What we really should do is make the "perfect" stage and have it uploaded on every wii at competitions, did anyone ever think of that option. Or make a certain number of various custom stages, maybe not just one.

They're called smash-fests. When we hold them in FL no one shows up.

 

[GreenAce]

It's more like smashers to lazy are to practice so they deserve to win.

 

[Max Ketchum]

People are confusing "playing with/for honor" with "playing for pride"

The Japanese play for pride. They can't compete for money, so the motivation to win is to prove that you're the best.

 

[Xaltis]

Such a good post Seibrik. I would love it if we changed our stages to just those 3 to start getting as good as possible instead of worrying about stupid gimmicks.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I agree with this and it's not like there is anything stopping us from re-adding those stages in the future (maybe when we've actually mastered the basics)

 

[*CT*]

They're called smash-fests. When we hold them in FL no one shows up.

xP Yeah I know of smash-fests, but we don't really schedule them in NC, they just tend to happen randomly and people are never playing at their best because they are always drinking water or hitting up some green greens. So its never really serious.

I take it back on the fests not really scheduling part, the Melee community is pretty good in NC about having fests on a decent basis.

 

[TheLastCacely]

No ****. You know why? Because then it would be business as usual. If there hadn't been a terrorist attack on 9/11, you think the headline would have read, "No terrorist attacks today"? No, that would be stupid.



The difference is the degree. Brood got second, but we thought Japan was sending their best, it was kind of a fluke, etc... This time, Otori and Nietono got incredibly convincing first and second, destroying essentially everyone except Nairo.

because 9/11 was def a coin toss.....

there is no way that **** was planned. the terrorist just flipped a coin to decide if they will attack in the next few hours.


stick to being a budget player.

 

[GimR]

the 9/11 analogy is absolutely horrible on both sides. Please just stop

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ya kno wut, this is gettin a little off topic


point is what happened happened


and maybe if we won we wouldn't be thinking of revisions to our play styles/practicing/rules


but u know who might have? japan, to make sure they catch up to us.

i don't see anything wrong in changing the way we go about how we look at smash to make sure we improve as a country

 

[Meru.]

This is very true and important. Ally can beat 9B and Otori [just not with his MK] and so can Mew2King in good shape, Anti can beat Nietono for sure and we've already seen Nairo doing it as well.

It strikes me as really odd how people start to exaggerate things in the wrong direction - just because people are shocked that Japan has proven itself to be better than North America doesn't mean that people should lose their heads about the issue. Japan is better but it's not like "omg Japan is so much better than USA HOLY ****". The truth is that all of the things that are better about the way Japan runs its tourneys lead to the same outcome: that the Japanese have a more constructive mental approach to the game. This s where they really excel - may it be their will to practice, or their ability to stay calm and open minded while playing. This is the whole reason why Japan is currently better than the USA, they don't play on a "whole other level". They do exactly the things everybody else does - they've just learned to do it a little better.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Really, I think many people here are trying too hard to come to a right conclusion as to why Japan emerged as the victor.

Edit: GIMR also raises a good point [that ultimately leads to my conclusion too] but the "they play for honor" part is straight up BS. But the fact that they don't play for money helps in another way: not only does it not distort their competition, it also allows for "scrubby" side events. A Brawl tournament can be the greatest fun in the world if you run a FFA tourney next to the regular singles competition - but you can't get that for money. If tourneys are fun then more people will continue to attend them. Why do you think monthly tourneys in the Osaka area regularly hit between 60 and 100 entrants?

He sharked to beat Coney in two matches. Kakera scrooged Reflex hardcore, and that's just what I read/heard from them. There might be more.

They DO use counterpick stages at least for teams.

The reason the Japanese are better is because of Japan's network structure. They can play wi-fi as if it was offline, thus allowing even the most average of players to frequently practice with top players from all over the country. Leaving close to no match-up unknown to those players. (knowledge gained in 1 match-up transfers to overall game-play)
They host frequent online tourneys, and because there is never the money issue at all, people take it way more serious than we do. Hell, most of the players here don't even consider wi-fi.

//2cents

I personally find these arguments much more reasonable personally. Good wifi can help A LOT, it can give a lot of experience. It can afterwards be put into practice in their tourneys which apparently happen to be a lot of fun: that sounds really motivating.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

because 9/11 was def a coin toss.....

there is no way that **** was planned. the terrorist just flipped a coin to decide if they will attack in the next few hours.


stick to being a budget player.

Way to completely and utterly miss the point. I'm saying that you don't report what doesn't break the norm. You don't write about how many people weren't killed, or how nothing notable happened. If Japan had gotten less amazing results, we wouldn't be barking up and down about it, but rather going, "yeah, we saw that coming". It's because we didn't see that coming that it's such a big deal.

 

[phi1ny3]

All this talk about generalizing Japanese gameplay as being "for honor" reminds me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLC5AAG_mSE#t=6m02s

They don't, it's a similar mentality as a grudge match. They go full on, they're just motivated by something else.

I like how you can essentially boil this down to a "Why playing to win doesn't always pay off" thread.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

^^^^^^^^

basically
its obviously easier to adapt to a few stage gimmickers than to adapt to people of higher skill than u

 

[Hippieslayer]

So how many americans would be willing to give up some of the stages they like (I assume) playing on in order to have a shot at achieving dat japanese mastery?

 

[Flayl]

Can't you just practice on the 3 starters and leave the tournament ruleset alone?

/asking because i would be bored as all hell if i had to play on a 6 stage ruleset

 

[Mekos]

Doom is right. It's pride not honor.

Lol it's just people watch too much anime and like to link honor with the Japanese hahaaha

 

[tarextherex]

Only stages in what you mentionned that should really be removed and are heavily relied on are RC and Brinstar, IMO. Otherwise apex stage list is fine.

I still agree about people relying too much on hard CPs, but I also think that the fact that they don't play for money also helps them having an optimal mindset to win, since from what I've seen a lot of NA people have bad mindsets about the game, usually putting excuses on their character for the loss of a match, and ending up quitting their main for a high tier or trying to have a pocket MK. This could be a reason why there aren't really that much national level Mid and Low tier players, it's usually one that represents fully his character, but normally we should see a lot more of them, but people still try to win the «easy way»(picking MK and using hard CPs). This easy way is also the reason why many people in America have problems with the Diddy or Olimar mu, since they both require a lot of adapting around their «broken» traits to beat them, and adapting is usually overlooked by players using this lazy way.


Not saying we shouldn't play for money at all, but players in general should have more motivation at getting better at the game, not trying to abuse all of the ruleset's flaws to win. This way can be beaten by more competent players, and Japan proved that at Apex. So America should have more motivation about actually getting better at the game after Apex, but the Apex ruleset is still fine.

 

[DMG]

Japanese players are actually more technical than ours hands down. Besides maybe 08 early 09, they definitely had that title on lockdown.

Stages is whatever, but I also think many of our better players "give up" or abandon playing more patient and it costs them. Japan isn't necessarily "paint drying on the wall" kind of camping, but they know if you can get people to come to you on your terms, that you've already gotten an edge on them.

 

[Ghostbone]

not trying to abuse all of the ruleset's flaws to win.

If a ruleset is flawed it should be fixed, if Temple is legal then I'm counter-picking it until it gets banned.

 

[SinisterB]

I think we should adopt Japan's stagelist, and tweak it.

Smashville
Final Destination
Battlefield

Are all starters, while Lylat and PS1 are counterpicks. We could even drop counterpicks, but I feel like we have the right idea and taking APEX as a learning experience to improve would be the best way. I'm also Anti-ban but after all we've gone through as a smash community to get him banned, I think we should at least temporarily ban him for x amount of months and maybe bring him back later.

With him banned we get destroyed by our competition

Spoiler

not like we already didn't olololoolol

, not to mention Japan might not even come out all this way to an MK banned tourney.

I feel like our meta as a whole is severely lacking, and the japanese are 1 step ahead. That being said they also have a different playstyle and excellent players, so we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much. We do have them beat in certain places, like character variation. I think it's time to stop and think for a second and just learn.

Anyways just some ideas, I left this short & sweet. Not sure what was posted since I haven't gone though the thread yet and have only read page 1, lol. Mybad if I repeated anything, or am sounding redundant. Just throwing m 2 cents out there.


Let's step it up NA.

 

[Steam]

I don't know why everyone thinks forcing us all to play on 6 stage will suddenly make us improve faster. How does playing on frigate impair my ability to improve as opposed to say playing on battlefield?

maybe they're better for reasons other than the ruleset? I mean wifi doesn't suck in japan and because of this they're able to practice waaaaay more. why can't that be a reason? they've also had the game longer.

what flayl said is pretty much how I feel. I don't agree with suffocating diversity in the ruleset just because you think it'll help us beat a few japanese players if they come here again. if you do think that, then you can practice on those stages and CP people to them in tourney.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i firmly believe if we're limited to playing against our opponents with 0 outside factors (stage transitions/distractions) then we're under constant pressure of outsmarting the opponent, not waiting for some part of the stage to interfere/help thus exercising our brain more often than not.

 

[Ruuku]

I suggest worshiping them. Maybe, just maybe you all would be granted their superior abilities.

 

[Steam]

i firmly believe if we're limited to playing against our opponents with 0 outside factors (stage transitions/distractions) then we're under constant pressure of outsmarting the opponent, not waiting for some part of the stage to interfere/help thus exercising our brain more often than not.

none of the stages interfere like that though. at the top level if a stage is really able to interfere like that then that says something about the player's ability to adapt. everything that happens on a current legal stage has a good amount of warning.

if you really think that playing on those stages will help you improve, then go ahead and play them. but you shouldn't try to force it on the rest of the community when the current legal stages are perfectly competitive. MK is pretty much the only one with tons of "gimmicks" to abuse on stages... but I honestly don't even think it's RC/Brinstar's fault that MK is so good on them... the stuff he does there he can do (with more difficulty) on just about every other stage in the game... which seems to suggest that all the bull**** he can do is an inherent quality of metaknight rather than the stages being ****.

not to mention the stages that we're proposing for the "neutral" stagelist are pretty much among the most polar stages in the game... It's like if the starter list was RC/Brinstar/Norfair...

 

[DFEAR]

chops: MAN STAGES ONLY?
dfear: BUT OF COURSE

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

ironically that was the time you saw the most improvment in us wasn't it?!

 

[DFEAR]

thats when i started improving :\ but oh well

 

[Xaltis]

thats when i started improving :\ but oh well

You could just start again.

 

[DFEAR]

do you really want to make this thread off topic?

too late


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[Anth0ny]

Japanese are mad good at games.

Honestly, I think it's just the culture. The way they approach things like competitive video games are different from how we approach them. Take Street Fighter, for example. The scene in Japan isn't particularly huge. And I'm sure there are more frequent tournaments in North America. But players like Daigo practice 12 hours a day, every day. Hardcore dedication. I'm sure Ocean, Nietono, Otori and the other Japanese Brawl players approach the game the same way.

 

[DFEAR]

i am quite positive that most competitive players here would practice their "own game" for hours on end. heck i like skyrim so i played 800+hrs on it no big rofl. more hours on that **** then brawl >___>

 

[Ruuku]

Most American players I've played against in various competitive games will almost always sandbag outside of tournaments.

 

[DFEAR]

Most American players I've played against in various competitive games will almost always sandbag outside of tournaments.

THIS. an excuse to cover a loss imo rofl. if an american wins through sandbaggin, hes got nothing to worry bout