The real reason Japan is better than America

[ぱみゅ]

The only character directly affected by a 2-stock match is ZSS.
She gets a great buff.
Is not liek that's bad or something.

 

[DMG]

Wario would get affected because of less time for Wafts, and PT would also change a bit because of the fatigue timer, but these changes are fairly minor. ZSS wouldn't get buffed that much: both players can use the armor pieces. There's no character specific trait of hers that 2 stock would benefit unless you assume the other person would get ***** by pieces off the bat.

 

[Akaku94]

I've had it brought up that Luario would be nerfed/buffed by 2-stock, but they would balance out (not as much power to lose by being ahead, and not as much power to gain by being behind)

 

[Life]

Lucario isn't changed at all by 2-stock, or at least not more than any other character.

ZSS would be buffed for the time being, as she's MUCH improved by the suitpieces (IDK how much other characters gain from them), but over time people will get better at camping out the pieces. (Then again, didn't we say that about Diddy?)

PT is the most obviously buffed. Goodbye Ivysaur!

Wario is debatable. Less time for waft, sure, but also fewer wafts needed.

Beyond that, I don't think anything changes beyond psychological factors (for example, ICs need to get fewer grabs, but you don't need to "not get grabbed" for as long--under tournament pressure which does your brain prefer?) and obviously the different stock-to-time ratio.

 

[Gea]

So is there any legitimate reason why 2 stock isn't tried?

 

[allshort17]

So is there any legitimate reason why 2 stock isn't tried?

It is in Georgia occasionally. Three times do be specific. It's not our official ruleset though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So is there any legitimate reason why 2 stock isn't tried?

Nope. People love their status quo.

*looks at the LGL*

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nope. People love their status quo.

And that's the reason why rulesets can't change at all.
People just don't want to try other stuff.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And that's the reason why rulesets can't change at all.
People just don't want to try other stuff.

Sadly so. Name any game, and many are like that. A Metagame can't evolve without changes. That is, something beyond simple match-up/tier lists. I mean rules changes here.

 

[Cygnet]

There have been 1 stock exhibition matches before in the past, right? (Not too long ago?)

Did those affect any opinions or anything?

(Also, I think only PT and ZSS get buffed by 1 stock - ZSS's buff is significant because even though both players can use it, she starts with all of them next to her and therefore has much more control; both players can use Diddy's bananas, too, right?)

 

[Tesh]

Wario would get affected because of less time for Wafts, and PT would also change a bit because of the fatigue timer, but these changes are fairly minor. ZSS wouldn't get buffed that much: both players can use the armor pieces. There's no character specific trait of hers that 2 stock would benefit unless you assume the other person would get ***** by pieces off the bat.

Lucario would NOT be affected. Within every 3 stock comeback is a 2 stock comeback and 1 stock comeback.

DMG how do you figure Wario is affected that way? Sure he has less wafts but he also has less stocks/damage he needs to dish out so it evens out fine. If you have 8 minutes, thats 7 killing wafts at most or 4 super wafts for 3 stocks. In 6 minutes you have 5 killing wafts or 3 super wafts for 2 stocks. Assuming you camp as hard as you can and always blow farts immediately when available, its actually better for Wario.

PT is a minor buff and he still sucks imo. Starting as Charizard and then moving straight into Squirtle would be very relaxing tho.

ZSS is noticeable but its not like we are buffing a top 10 character so who would care. I've definitely seen some ZSS players have suit pieces well into their 2nd stocks, but its rare.

There have been 1 stock exhibition matches before in the past, right? (Not too long ago?)

Did those affect any opinions or anything?

(Also, I think only PT and ZSS get buffed by 1 stock - ZSS's buff is significant because even though both players can use it, she starts with all of them next to her and therefore has much more control; both players can use Diddy's bananas, too, right?)

Reduction to 2 stocks still reduces the amount of time spent with ivysaur or without pieces so it still makes them both better. Just a bonus imo. Logically it doesn't really buff or nerf anyone else tho.

 

[DMG]

Well it's a trade off. Wario is better with less stock because that means fewer wafts you have to hit to kill. But say you miss or you wait longer than usual. Those situations will **** you harder than usual. I go in assuming that I'm not gonna hit 75% of my farts lol. So for me it's a nerf.

 

[ぱみゅ]

For some people is a nerf, for some other is a buff.
For ****'s sake, why don't you all just test it out instead of hard theorycraft?

 

[da K.I.D.]

For some people is a nerf, for some other is a buff.
For ****'s sake, why don't you all just test it out instead of hard theorycraft?

This is very similar to cactuars melee proposed alternate ruleset.

People need to play with it and try it out.

For logistic reasons, two stock is clearly superior for brawl

 

[Gea]

Edit: nevermind, misread

 

[Akaku94]

Why not just test it in a tourny? I've been using it casually, and I think it works just fine, but if we ever tried to make it the norm, we would need a whole lot of evidence supporting it; the smash community isn't exactly the most willing to change...

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Does anybody know if infinites (Ex Marth infinite on Lucas and Ness) are banned in the Japan ruleset?

 

[The Ben]

the smash community isn't exactly the most willing to change...

Except when it comes to banning everything. They'll do that pretty fast.

 

[Browny]

over 3.5 years to ban metaknight

I just cant keep up!

 

[The Ben]

And banning items and over half the stages upon release.

 

[Tesh]

Except when it comes to banning everything. They'll do that pretty fast.

And banning items and over half the stages upon release.

This isn't a change, its just doing what the Smash community has been doing for years before Brawl.

 

[Judo777]

For some people is a nerf, for some other is a buff.
For ****'s sake, why don't you all just test it out instead of hard theorycraft?

That's funny this is what I said about an MK ban lol then people said "but how do we know what will happen, how good is too good? what will we look for, (insert another question that has no answer)"

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's funny this is what I said about an MK ban lol then people said "but how do we know what will happen, how good is too good? what will we look for, (insert another question that has no answer)"

I can't tell for everybody else, but at least I am testing pretty much every idea that sounds interesting.

 

[Flayl]

How many years did it take for Melee tournaments to consistently ban items? IIRC one of the coasts played with items banned from the start while the other didn't do so until a year or 2 later?

 

[da K.I.D.]

west coast was in fact very attached to their items.

 

[Naridax]

Does anybody know if infinites (Ex Marth infinite on Lucas and Ness) are banned in the Japan ruleset?

I recall seeing a Marth infinite a Ness in a Japanese video. I do not remember how old that video was though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Japan has no infinites banned to any % as far as I know.

 

[Hylian]

Japan has no infinites banned to any % as far as I know.

This. I recall seeing 9B DDD ditto someone and infinite him on the ledge till 600% till he messed up.

 

[Naridax]

This. I recall seeing 9B DDD ditto someone and infinite him on the ledge till 600% till he messed up.

That was a friendly. Sumabato limits it to 350%. I do not know about SRBT though.

 

[popsofctown]

That was a friendly. Sumabato limits it to 350%. I do not know about SRBT though.

The limit needs to be raised to about 350 or 400, actually. I'm pretty sure 300% is a copypaste from melee, but 300% fthrow won't kill DK from an inconvenient position in a large stage.

This is what I've found in what few D3-DK "friendlies" I've managed to play, so don't put too much of my money on it.

(the infinite is-this-stalling limit is such a trivial thing that anytime spent talking about it would be better spent discussing a stage legality, so this will probably never change, oh wells)

 

[DMG]

What legal stage would have this inconvenient position that you could not circumvent by moving the IC's while grabbing to a better spot? I can't think of a stage lol. Certainly not any of the starters, stages like Frigate Delfino and Castle Siege you might have the grab broken up before that point and even before then while the stage is static you could get closer, etc.

Like maybe if you're playing on Hyrule lol. Even on Japes which is massive, you could kill there with Usmash or Fsmash even if slightly staled

 

[popsofctown]

I'm referring to D3's throws, which I believe have less kill power than fully charged IC smashes.

Even more relevant would be Marth's throws, now that I think about it.

 

[Roller]

I could not agree with the OP more.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm referring to D3's throws, which I believe have less kill power than fully charged IC smashes.

Even more relevant would be Marth's throws, now that I think about it.

Indeed, Marth's uthrow doesn't start to kill DK on BF until like 250%. :awe:

 

[ShadowLink84]

For logistic reasons, two stock is clearly superior for brawl

Okay how?
If someone brings up "ITS FASTER!" as a reason I'll just facepalm.
Speed should only be an issue where the game begins to hamper tournament run time.

Half the time tournaments take so long is because players are infamous for taking their sweet arse time playing out their tournament matches.

Edit: oh and they're hosting a tournament in my school. I could win a free 360! >=D Busting out that gamecube controller! Or MetaKnight.

 

[DMG]

Just learn IC's. IC's are one of the biggest troll moves to non tournament going players.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Just learn IC's. IC's are one of the biggest troll moves to non tournament going players.

But it's prolly not a unity ruleset tournament. If they're unaware that infinites exist, they will prolly ban it as soon as they see it. They're not gonna stop the tourney to sit down and have a rational discussion about the ruleset, they'll just ban shenanigans that are letting one guy troll everyone else.

 

[Mithost]

But it's prolly not a unity ruleset tournament. If they're unaware that infinites exist, they will prolly ban it as soon as they see it. They're not gonna stop the tourney to sit down and have a rational discussion about the ruleset, they'll just ban shenanigans that are letting one guy troll everyone else.

If they are going to be scrubs it will be hard to even win. SSBB scrubs like to ban characters because they don't feel like learning how to beat them.

Spoiler

Metaknight

Anyways, just switch characters and leave your best for last.

 

[Kink-Link5]

That's great, but it still does nothing for the fact that a tournament organiser has full reign on how the tournament is run. Imagine if there were no penalties in hockey. Like yeah, I guess the "scrub" refs could just get over that players keep disrupting the game with fights, or they could just instill rules to limit it and the players will have to play within those constraints.

 

[The Ben]

There were fights over metaknight?