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The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

Discussion in 'Yoshi Archives' started by Mmac, Oct 27, 2008.

  1. Timbers

    Timbers check me out

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    It's worth mentioning then that Lucario's fsmash tip cannot be clanked with. That is, you will always be hit by it if you're not shielding and you don't have an active hitbox in the "non-tipped" vicinity. Considering egg roll has a very small horizontal hitbox, in theory it'd be easily possible to outprioritize the eggroll with fsmash when at "full speed" given that you have that much startup from the eggroll and also gathering momentum. Theory, of course, but if we're comparing two moves then why not.

    If that made sense.

    And Furbs I already understood your post, which is why I was responding to other people and not you. They both said that "the only way it would hit" is if it was used in full momentum, yet you need to be like half of Battlefield away to reach that full momentum from what I've seen, and it's rather easy to throw up a shield from that distance...which is why I was surprised that they actually hit people with eggroll at this "full momentum" state.
  2. Gindler

    Gindler Smash Champion

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    Egg roll can reach full momentum in no time if you reverse it. But I only use this when I want to cancel an aura sphere...
  3. Sharky

    Sharky Smash Master

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    so...the topic is link...and people are talking about lucario...not good...=/
  4. Ryusuta

    Ryusuta Smash Master

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    Apparently the subject hasn't been exhausted, yet.
  5. Poltergust

    Poltergust Smash Master

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    I guess I'll just quote myself from before when this Lucario discussion is over. =/
  6. SOVAman

    SOVAman Smash Hero

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    Zelda is cooler then link but link has a sword so therefore its rape for yoshi


    easally a 10-0 advantage yoshi


    not really I have no match up experience on link and zelda so don't ask me

    here is cool pic though [​IMG]
  7. Sharky

    Sharky Smash Master

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    nice pic. Great game. =D
  8. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    He can throw an egg, I guess, but that's the extent of it if the Lucario keeps himself spaced and plays defensively, since I'm pretty dang sure our tilts outrange yours. As Timbers said, though, Fsmash isn't exactly something that we would be doing too often, as Timbers said Yoshi's probably quick enough to punish it if it whiffs. Of course, there's always bait and punish, etc. but that's player skill, and is irrelevant when considering the matchup itself. Also, funny thing. Last I checked, All non-yoshi shields come out in two frames, and Yoshi's jab comes out in three. So theoretically, if Yoshi does happen to clank with a move at very close range, Lucario could buffer a shield and roll away quickly to reset the field. >>
  9. dguy6789

    dguy6789 Smash Lord

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    STOP IT!!!!
  10. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Lucario eh? Allow me

    Responding to this as well as other matchup stuff posted earlier, and just random thoughts:

    Lucario is going to want to zone this match, as stated before. He can approach, which is a good option, but leaves him open to ETSs easily. He can camp a little bit, but yoshi out camps, so camp for a second, then get going again. The matchup is basically a zoning matchup. Lucario is a superior zoner, but he is slow in the air, making him easy bait for eggs. However, lucario can SH fair to neutral b, so if you have a charged aura sphere, we can get punished for an egg if lucario predicts it. Lucario wants to zone with aerials and fsmash mainly. lucario can shield yoshis tilts and punish OOS with an utilt, cuz its so godly and fast, so i prefer to stick to jabs here. Yoshi is gonna be ETSing alot in this matchup to get away from lucarios fsmash, and to add pressure. Yoshi isnt going to be grabbin much here.

    On egg roll: Its a terrible move, nobody should get hit by it. JUST GRAB THEM OUT OF IT!!!!! So difficult, it hurts XD
  11. Jiggy

    Jiggy Smash Apprentice

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    Completely makes sense then why I always seem to own Ganondorfs but get owned by Marths/have a hard time with Wolf O.O
  12. Sharky

    Sharky Smash Master

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    so true, but it hits so much for some reason. XD
  13. Mmac

    Mmac Smash Lord

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    It's because they overestimate the move. They think they can easily punish it, but they overpunish it and therefore screw themselves.
  14. Swordplay

    Swordplay Smash Lord

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    I use to play Yoshi and I agree with your matchup.

    When you guys first gave Link a 7/3 advantage i was like WTF/
    Then it was 6.5/3.5 and I was like.....Better
    Now it is 6/4 Link and I'm thinking this is more accurate.

    I defiantly think this matchup is in the 4/6 3.5/6.5 range. Nothing more or less.

    Why is Link a hard matchup for Yoshi though? it is because his metagame is exactly the type of metagame that frightens yoshi players. SPACING.

    Zair
    Projectiles
    DAC (for follow ups)

    These are the things Link will use to control spacing.

    The scary part is that Yoshi relies on spacing too!

    Pivot grabs
    Dragonic Reverse
    And an egg toss.


    Link is able to outspace Yoshi . He has more projectile variety and it is thus better.
    Zair spacing often beats out pivot grabs and Dragonic Reverses

    Not to mention Link has a sword. You can punish Link with his laggy moves but 1 mistake and You will find yourself in a flurry of disjointed attacks.

    The air is one of yoshi's best approach. I mean B-air is just rape.
    Link has DAC and regular U-Smash. It deals so much damage if Yoshi tries to approach above.
    If Yoshi tries horizontal air approaches retreating zairs usually make Yoshi a sad dino.

    It is great that Yoshi has a CG on Link. He really needs it. But it could all end in vain if Link has a bomb in hand. (He usually will)



    Yoshi is severly outplayed in the ground game and has the tools to due battle in the air against Yoshi. The offstage game. Yoshi's goal in this matchup will be to move Link into unfriendly posiitons and try to hit him offstage. You must then follow with a GIMP.

    2 Things to keep in mind.

    zair
    Spin attack has a lot of priority.

    Use Nair to gimp most of the time.


    Last but Not least NEVER USE EGGROLL!!! YOU SHOULD ALL KNOW IT SUCKS
    Link has some crazy priority with high knockback on some moves. Use Eggroll and you will cry.


    I use to think Yoshi sucked. But then I realized I mained 2 of his hardest matchups. Link and Marth. I have a lot more respect for Yoshi's after playing good ones that understand his meta-game.
  15. bigman40

    bigman40 Smash Master

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    1 thing swordplay. DR is meant for up close spacing. Zair will naturally beat it....unless.....maybe we crawl under it? O.o Isn't Zair kinda slow if you land on the ground before it finishes?
  16. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    Lucario zones better than Link, is quite difficult to gimp with Yoshi, and kills just as easily as Link should.

    Now someone explain to me why Link gets a 4/6 or 3.5/6.5, while Lucario is stuck with a simple 4/6, despite having more advantages than Link.
  17. Sharky

    Sharky Smash Master

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    LOL just the opposite Bigman. Infact, it pretty much autocancels itself when you land it early. That's why it's so good. XD
  18. Shiri

    Shiri Smash Chump

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    :yoshi: Now, while my writeup on Link isn't done yet, I felt the need to post this.

    Lucario doesn't "zone" better than Link. He has an easier time "zoning," I will be more than happy to give him that much. Unfortunately, Lucario's ground spacers are just more of the same very horizontal stoppers. His aerial spacers are a bit different, but his attack patterns in the air can be taken advantage of from time to time. They're effective, yes, but Link definitely has the upper hand in terms of area of effect. From his reverse up tilt to double jump back air, jabs to downsmash, and his beastly forward tilt (these pairings are not references to combos, but just to varying techniques in semantic pairs), Link covers almost an entire portion of the screen--mostly by just standing there. Link's options here are far from slow and may not insta-KO or anything silly like that, but I believe he is much more effective in this area, especially at mid-range. Lucario's "zone" options are very momentum driven and a weakness is that you can find a way, literally, around his techniques. Lucario can't change directions easily or attack in multiple directions very readily unless he has up tilt on hand (and what I would consider precision neutral aerials), which means he has to be on the ground, which is implying many other vantage points for Yoshi trying to push an offensive. All I'm saying is that Link's options are much more diverse, much safer, and overall more of a cement wall kind of deal.

    I also think that, for future reference, any more character comparisons should be made to Meta Knight or Snake. In the brutal scope of things, they're the only two characters that matter right now. If we're comparing anything, we should be comparing Link's spacing and techniques to Meta Knight's or Snake's, certainly not Lucario's.
  19. Mmac

    Mmac Smash Lord

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    [​IMG] Link isn't finished yet, and I doubt he's anywhere more than 4/6. In fact I have high doubt's that Link is going to be disadvantaged in general unless the Link brings up some good points. Lucario used to be 3.5, but I changed it because I think Furbs/Shiri has the most experience of the matchup.
  20. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    Fair enough. Now explain why you've only quoted Furb's first post, flaws and all, while completely neglecting all of the other information that has been discussed.

    Also, Furbs said that Double Team and Fair were outright viable kill moves, and that Egg Roll was a viable move at all. Can he really be trusted to determine the matchup number despite such obvious lack of knowledge of Lucario as a whole?
  21. Mmac

    Mmac Smash Lord

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    ........... Because I was tired [​IMG]

    Plus isn't Double Team a Viable Kill Move anyways? I know Fair isn't ( I didn't notice it before), but Double Team can actually kill at reasonable percents with Highish Aura.

    Well if anyone wants to do a Quote Tree of the general heat of the discussion, or a plain new thesis, then go nuts. I can't do it right now. Very Tired right now. It's 1 AM Right here

    [​IMG]
  22. bigman40

    bigman40 Smash Master

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    That sucks to high hell XD I'd bet if it wasn't for the Zair, we'd be able to make the matchup more even easily.

    DoubleTeam, while it's a viable killing move at high %s, it's hard to land IMO. Fair is used far too much to be a killing move. The only aerials that we'll see as a killing option are Uair, Bair, and maybe Dair. Ground-wise, we'd see Fsmash, Usmash, Aura Sphere, and DoubleTeam as killing moves (Dsmash is viable, but hard to land in the first place).

    Egg roll has little use, though, it is a good way to catch an opponent off-guard. Since we can get a full speed egg roll by rolling the opposite direction we face, it'll give us the hit and run option.
  23. Kitamerby

    Kitamerby Smash Hero

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    Alright, I understand now.
    Double Team is definitely a great kill move if it hits, although that's the tricky part. Potentially, from the center of Final Destination, Double Team is our third strongest KO move, killing only a few % lower than the range of Fsmash and Usmash (initial hit). The problem though is that it's ridiculously hard to land because of A)its slow startup compared to other counter-based moves, and B) the fact that it does not hold the opponent in place, and doesn't even extend the hitlag thingy that happens when a character hits a solid object, thus allowing the character to immediately shield and punish the Lucario. There's also the whole thing that if you predict wrong, Lucario dances around for 82 frames or so, meaning that you're usually going to be the one to die. The move itself would be awesome if the second part was fixed, though. <<
  24. Timbers

    Timbers check me out

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    I agree with everything here.
    It's possible to shield Double Team very easily. There is no hitlag on the move, so you're free to throw up a shield after any move you use. I think the only things that Yoshi has that can activate a double team and still be in too much lag to shield would be his usmash, dsmash (first hit), and dair's landing lag. I'd imagine eggroll too but I can't confirm it.

    It's a terrible tradeoff, which is why it isn't used often if at all. The activation frames are deathly slow, for it to kill Lucario is required to be in killrange (auraboost) and whiffing can get him killed, and even if it does activate like 80% of the moves in this game have low enough lag to shield it anyways. It's unlike Marth's counter, for example, where people are caught in hitlag.

    Double team will end up having a lower priority in killing than say, Luc's dair, bair, uair, fsmash, aurasphere, and possibly dsmash.

    With no disrespect to Furbs, a lot of what he wrote was inaccurate. I think Burntsocks has had the most accurate post of the Yoshis so far regarding the matchup.

    Furbs had a lot of good points, but he kind of went on adding useless and inaccurate information (Yoshi jabs beating fsmash..? Why would Lucario use fsmash that closely lol.) You can use his summary if you want, but it might be best to crop out some of it. Example being that if Yoshi does space with bairs, we can't grab him. Luc's grab range is terrible, so just keeping the bair spaced will be safe. On the other hand, Luc's ftilt and fair will outprioritize the bair, so do keep it in mind. From memory, I know he mentioned something about capitalizing on Luc's lag in the air. I have no idea what he's talking about. Maybe he's referring to landing lag, which is pointless to bring up due to Luc's floaty and high jumps. He's free to use his aerials virtually anywhere, just so long as he's not about to descend (and even then he can use dair or nair. Both have 0 lag)
  25. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Timbers knows whats up...
    Kitamerby doesnt.... =P

    Yoshi can gimp lucario pretty well, rising nair then just edgehog, or do it again. Egg him during second jump makes him easy prey. It really is a spacing game, yoshi can't really approach and lucario cant either, so lucario gets to mid close range and then spaces all of his lame moves, and yoshi ETSes and tries to make lucario do dumb stuff so we can jab him or get him offstage to be gimped. Lucarios fsmash is lame, but ETS is the best you can do, or if ur stuck, just shield it. Dtilt is pretty good in this matchup, used sparingly. Yay!

    4.5-5.5 Me thinks. On paper it would seem worse, but really, the player who makes the least mistakes wins, and in anything worse than a 4.5-5.5 matchup, the yoshi would have to work a lot harder to win.

    Also: Egg roll only works if your opponent is really caught off guard and doesnt know that they can easily grab them out of it. Double team only works if we wiff a laggy move.
  26. Ryusuta

    Ryusuta Smash Master

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    Egg Roll is safe against Double Team so long as you keep going. If it's going full speed and activates Double Team (without stopping), you'll roll right past his counterattack without getting hit. Same thing happens with Jigglypuff's Rollout attack.

    I still have no hesitation giving Lucario at least 3.5:6.5 against Yoshi, though. But of course all of these match-up ratios are general, and it's a given that individual mileage may vary.
  27. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    On Lucarios kill moves/yoshis killing ability:

    He really only kills me with fsmash and occasionally bair. Dair is the most obvious move in the game, because its so obvious when lucario is going to do it, however, it is a good move and it kills, but in general its a very easy move to see coming because it is their best option when the opponent is below you. Its hard to explain... hmmm, but like, lucario doesnt have any good options in that area so he has to use down air. Airdodging down is not a good option for him, and nair is beat by our uair and usmash, so just dont get hit by dairs.

    His fsmash is godly and unpunishable, but just try to stay away from it. You either want to be right next to lucario or out of range of his fsmash. It hits, and its an amazing move, especially when yoshi is on the edge, but its his main kill move. Bair isnt really that good but it can kill. It has startup, but a deceptively large hitbox.

    Yoshi has a hard time getting kills, especially since uair wont work unless done perfectly, but the key is to not rush it. If you dont have an opening, dont go for it, because at those percents, going for kills you probably wont get means pain. Offstage kills can make or break the game, if you can get off a solid edgeguard on the first stock, its possible that the game is over, because now lucario is at low percentage again without his overly powerful kill moves. Dtilt sets up for easy edgeguards, and its generally safe. You can occasionally go for an fsmash if you think lucario is going in for a SH fair -> nair. The main thing is to not go for kills that you arent sure you are going to get, because if you get hasty, which i know i do, you are going to be punished.

    Shoop Da Whoop
  28. Timbers

    Timbers check me out

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    It seems to be the general opinion that Luc is easily gimped by everyone in the cast due to no damage ES. To save ourselves from going into a 10page debate as to why Yoshi can't "gimp Lucario pretty well", I'll just leave these notes and be done with the subject. Whether Yoshi boards believe me or not I really don't care:

    -Yoshi cannot gimp Lucario easily. No one on the roster that isn't named Metaknight, MK, or ROB can gimp Lucario in realistic terms.
    -If you're gimping Lucarios, they're showing you exactly what "jumping into the rape" looks like. Luc has a plethora of options for returning to the stage. Mostly passive, but it's enough to escape a lot of character's onslaughts. A good example is that, so long as Lucario has saved his midair, he can easily survive a DDD WoP. You have to find a surefire way to take out that Luc's midair while getting around his high priority aerials. A lucario that can't successfully execute every option given to him are the ones that are easily gimped. These claims are about as true as the ones talking about how easy it is to go out there and footstool a Yoshi's midair.
    -To gimp a Lucario, it's 10% skill on the player's part, and 90% dumb decision by the Lucario. Play a Lucario that knows how to pull out all the stops to make his recovery a safe one.
    -Luc's fair outranges and outprioritizes all of Yoshi's aerials but the fair (and if you're coming at us with an fair that's one of the easiest things in the world to avoid) and aurasphere can wreak havoc on Yoshi's generally low priority aerials (this is in contrast to the likes of Marth, or DDD's bair. Things that are just walled up with priority and range) Luc also has his dair, which cuts his momentum. We can use it to stall if an opponent is attempting to come out to pressure us. A character like Yoshi, it's relatively easy to avoid him with this method as Yoshi's limited offstage game due to the recovery being...limited.
    -Combined with Luc's tools to getting back to the stage, as well as the dair stalling, he also has an impressively good midair jump and is one of the floatiest characters in the game; making it no difficult task to make it back to the stage with his midair alone.
    -Should Yoshi somehow knock Lucario out of his midair (an egg is the only realistic option here) and the Lucario is forced to ES, it's possible to go for an fair spike or running (offstage) uair. At this height, a fresh uair will kill Lucario at 140-150? I can't remember. This has happened to me once before, and only once, but it is possible. If you were to followup with a nair or something the Lucario can easily DI the hit and be put into an even better position to recover. Luc's aerial movement is good, and he is very floaty. Anything that can't spike or semispike him is only going to help him recover.

    I'd put the game in Luc's advantage. Numbers..I guess 6:4 Lucario. Whether you agree with me or not is up to you, but there is definitely an advantage to Lucario here.
    On top of bair and fsmash, it's key to watch out for uair and aurasphere. Uair especially, it kills at surprisingly low (well lower than originally anticipated. 100% Lucario will take out someone like Yoshi at 120-130% from fulljumped height) percents when left fresh.

    Keep in mind that dair does completely stall Lucario for a small duration, which leaves him relatively safe when the Luc has taken into account the opponents position. Wildly dairing whenever someone gets close to you is being predictable and is player error more than character error.

    I think the hardest thing for Yoshi here is how difficult it will be for him to grab kills here. You mentioned that it's a general GG for the Lucario if Yoshi can get a low percent kill on Lucario, but Lucario getting a kill on Yoshi at near any percent is going to wreak havoc on Yoshi's next stock. We can still camp you, except our auraspheres are doing 7-8% instead of 4-5%, and comboing Yoshi is easy due to size, even at those percents. an Fair->dair alone is an easy 30%, and sets up for an additional 10-20% depending on the Yoshi's reactions and how well the Lucario is capable of executing the next attack (example being to aurasphere a read midair). This holds true for a lot of characters, but Yoshi definitely has a harder time setting up killers here than others on the roster. Yoshi's approach options do suffer against a Lucario this high in the percents due to aurasphere's increasing priority and ability to demolish most of his approach options.

    Of course if Yoshi gets the kill on first stock then we're stretchin for a kill on you guys, and that might not happen until 180%.

    Just know that Luc is never down and out, especially against a character with rather low kill potential.
  29. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Ok im sorry, yoshi certainly cant gimp lucario easily, but he can gimp him. This is coming from tournament experience against good lucarios, and i get an occasional gimp. Eggs get rid of midair jump. Also, my idea of a lucario gimp isnt a 10% one, thats really not possibly unless the lucario does somethin really dumb, more like 50+.

    I know how many options lucario has in recovery, a lot, but once his jump is gone, all of those options are gone.

    On kill moves:
    I forgot about aura sphere, i do get killed by them alot.

    Dair is usually a safe option, but its also easy to not get hit by it, because none of lucarios other options from above are very good. That is why it is easy to not get hit by it, in my opinion.


    W/e i think most of your statements are correct, and that the matchup depends a lot on momentum.
  30. Shiri

    Shiri Smash Chump

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    :yoshi: Without further ado, I present: Link and why he can SUCK ON MAH BAWLZ

    I am going to start off by reminding everyone that I'm not very good at Yoshi. I think I know the character inside and out, but my skill using him is incredibly subpar. That being said, you should take whatever I'm about to say with as many grains of salt as you like; I think I'm pretty knowledgeable, but I am certainly not infallible. I am also pretty sure some, if not most, of you think that I am kinda crazy about certain things (liking the Sheik matchup in Melee, thinking Yoshi does as well against Meta Knight in Brawl as he did against Marth in Melee, liking the Brawl Pikachu matchup even better than the Melee Pikachu matchup, etc.) and my opinions on this matchup will probably not be any exception, but I feel it is important for me to share my views on it and you can decide from there what you would like to take from it. Oh, before I forget...this is long. Deal or don't read. tl;dr is for the weak.

    I think this is a hard matchup. Certainly not the hardest for Yoshi (that goes to Mario, I think, still). I am going to probably start my analysis with Yoshi's more obvious advantages in this matchup and then compare them to Link's and see how the two characters interact with each other on the battlefield.

    Yoshi has above average edgeguarding opportunities in this matchup. I think this alone turns the matchup from abysmal to winnable.

    Yoshi has guaranteed KOs at the edge with grabs. This is what turns the matchup from winnable to bearable.

    Yoshi, yet again, has a good combo reading in this matchup. Combined with the fact that Yoshi can pull out forward smashes in this matchup moreso than he can in most of his other matchups, forcing lots of damage over a relatively short amount of time isn't incredibly challenging.

    Yoshi has a decent amount of projectile negation with neutral air and forward tilt. Jabs do almost nothing here, but getting camped isn't a terrible thing in this matchup if Yoshi can just stay on top of which projectiles are coming from where and know how to stop each one.

    Anybody from almost any other character board reading advantages like these in a matchup would love to wonder why I'm still calling this a disadvantage for Yoshi. As anybody who plays Yoshi knows, things are never this simple. If they were, we'd have much better matchups across the board without question. Let's examine Link and how he works on paper, disregarding varying personal playstyles.

    Link's number one advantage in this matchup, hands down, is range. Jabs, downsmash, forward tilt (you will hear me harp on this move many times--and for good reason), up air, and forward aerial are all incredibly useful and long (and these are just the abusable moves). While Yoshi has myriad options once he lands a hit, getting that first hit in is very very hard. Yoshi is hard pressed to find an opening in an intelligent Link that plays like Sheik--laglessly. If Link abuses his lagless ranged moves, he can really stay in place and make it extremely hard for Yoshi to get in.

    Link's next advantage is very close in importance to his first; speed. Link and speed have never gone hand in hand in Smash, but Link can take advantage of Brawl's game engine with his very comfortable walking speed, as was pointed out earlier in this thread. Being able to walk into any grounded move, most of which are incredibly useful in this matchup), is a boon no Link player can deny. Considering falling speed, Link isn't bad in this department, either. It kinda sucks for his recovery offstage, but Link (always has and still) is known for his ability to adjust from his nominal freefall speed to incredibly speedy fastfalls. This makes his descent from Yoshi up aerials that failed to KO much trickier to intercept or disrupt with conventional techniques.

    The final character advantage I'll be discussing in this matchup is one that I wish Yoshi had in this matchup, but just doesn't. Consistent power. Link has it. All of his moves. Powerful. Consistently. Yoshi does not have this. Yoshi has burst potential from up aerial and forward smash. Up smash and neutral air are Yoshi's only really consistently powerful moves. Everything else besides up smash and neutral air deteriorate too quickly to guarantee KOs. Link can tap on your shield all day with whatever he wants and still be able to hit Yoshi with weakened moves that are capable of KOs. Link is certainly no Snake (who can KO with every single A button move in his arsenal), but Link has plenty of power covering a wide range of moves and they all have decently consistent power, even as they degenerate.

    I am now going to move onto how Link and Yoshi deal with other on the battlefield. This is what makes the core of any real matchup and where playstyles and decision-making come in to make or break a situation. We'll go over the three ranges and the four parts of the stage that every matchup deals with.

    First, at long range, I'll admit that I don't know what really happens here. I can say, with some assurance, however, that Link's gale boomerang should see no use at this distance. Long range, again, is any distance longer than medium range (which I will cover shortly). Arrows are tricky, fast, and they smart, but they can be negated with enough reaction time. Bombs don't see use at super long ranges, but can see use for a little outside of medium range, and for good reason. Catching items is easier than ever in Smash history (sometimes even forcing unwanted catches), but if you're not good at catching bombs, Yoshi will want to either move or jab them away. Just be careful not to set them off. Eggs are decent at long range. Yoshi can arc and toss like a pro, but the Master Sword wants nothing to do with them. Powershielding is good for Link because of his shield stance and the ease of powershielding. If Link is on a platform, he can also use the Hylian Shield to negate eggs, but he still has to be wary of the explosions sometimes. If Yoshi insists on using eggs here, he should focus on the upper or lower corners of the shield (not body shots) in order to try for shield stabs with the explosions of the eggs. Yoshi can also try to force the explosions of eggs before they hit Link (if he doesn't have his shield up) instead of having the egg collide with him. This is quite an awkward tossing battle...Yoshi can egg toss slide away from arrows to land some interesting egg snipes if the stage is long enough, but Link can throw much faster than Yoshi, so things are quite up in the air, I think.

    Watch out for sliding up smash. It's beautiful for closing distance, especially on smaller stages like Battlefield.

    Medium range is Link's, no question. Medium range is that range just outside of both characters' abilities to hit each other. It is essentially a space where characters "set up shop" to try to establish defensive dominance and lead into offensive tactics via punishing mistakes or simple intimidation. Every medium range option Link has in just as fast as Yoshi's and has much more power. Link closes this space very well with short hop forward aerials, up tilts, reverse up tilts, sparingly used forward tilts, and jab swings make it very difficult for Yoshi to land closer egg tosses and grabs. The fact that intelligent closing of space with Link's moves can suffocate Yoshi's grab game is spectacular for Link, forcing Yoshi to do much more work than he'd like. Random forward smashes (first step) are good to keep Yoshi on his toes about blindly rushing in with a dash attack. Gale boomerang can see some use here against bad spotdodges and airdodges. The small vertical knockback presents nominal options for Link to take advantage of, usually leading to double forward air slaps or that nasty nasty down aerial. Yoshi's best weapon at this range for the matchup, back aerial, is up for some challenges to make itself as useful as it is otherwise. If Yoshi gets in, though, he should immediately start closing distance to make the absolute most of his situation.

    Close range, no lie, Link is a ho. Link wants to use downsmash here liberally and one can expect lots of jabs and up tilts. Link shouldn't really be jumping here. Link gets by best with intelligent use of the quickest, most lagless moves he can use; most of those are ground moves. Link's close range tactics here are unique because of Yoshi's shield. When Yoshi puts his shield up, Link has a few options at his disposal, not to shift momentum to his favor, but to position Yoshi where he'd like for a range reset. If Link wants Yoshi back into medium range, he can down air, neutral air, or back air Yoshi's shield. If he wants to send Yoshi a little further, he can forward smash the shield with both hits to send Yoshi a ways away. That being said, Yoshi will want to try to stay out of shield and use low percent pseudo-CC to hit with jabs and down tilts to try to force openings for running back aerials and grabs or maybe even the rare dash attack. Forward tilt isn't very good here, I think, because the vertical knockback sets Link up for neutral and down air retaliation. If it's shielded at all, it's GG Yoshi. I believe Yoshi will want to focus more on horizontal taps and force Link to the edges of the stage as quickly as possible.

    Okay, I am looking at this post and realizing how long it is, so I'm going to stop here and see what you all have to say in response before I come back and print the second half later this evening regarding the four areas of the stage and my final thoughts on the matchup. I hope this is all coherent and if you don't agree, please feel free to do so and let's talk about this matchup because I really don't think it's as close to neutral as it's been getting recently.
  31. Mmac

    Mmac Smash Lord

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    [​IMG] Better? Anything I missed? or is incorrect?
  32. Timbers

    Timbers check me out

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    Litchi's meat buns in a ****ing fetish fighting ga

    It's usually not a good idea for Yoshi to combat Lucario when in the air, if I read Furbs' "you HAVE to capitalize on his aerial lag" comment correctly. Luc has a bunch of lingering hitboxes and lowlag aerials. Trying to punish them with Yoshi's own airgame is gonna blunder..because there's not really anything you CAN do to punish Lucario when he is in the air.

    His ground game is a different story though. Go nuts.
  33. .Marik

    .Marik is a social misfit

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    Amazing thread. <3

    I'm watching this thread. :p
  34. Mmac

    Mmac Smash Lord

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    K, Removed that, also edited the "Bair < Grab" Part I missed
  35. Tidycats29

    Tidycats29 Smash Cadet

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    very nice
    summed it up well
    so it's 6:4 yoshi?

    i saw this 55:45 yoshi
  36. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Lol????

    Lrn2read?
    hehe sorry, but how did u get 6:4 yoshi from that
  37. Tidycats29

    Tidycats29 Smash Cadet

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    i said 55:45.....

    6:4 was just for saying it
    but thanks for taking it out

    i saw this 55:45 yoshi anyway
  38. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Ok, the same thing applies, how did you get 5.5-4.5 yoshi from that?

    Just sayin.
  39. Tidycats29

    Tidycats29 Smash Cadet

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    Alright because i don't think link's ground game is enough to beat yoshi

    i mean his spacing is good
    but a good yoshi ain't gonna be dumb enough to actually get man handled by links tilts or down smash

    it's been said already i believe
    yoshi tilts are quicker
    he has a CG on link
    link can be gimped pretty easily
    even by throwing eggs at him
    air game i believe yoshi has advantages

    what does link only have?
    his spacing and ground game

    yoshi can even outspam link

    i just honestly don't think it's links advantage
    that's why i say 55:45 yoshi

    plz correct me if i'm wrong
  40. burntsocks

    burntsocks Smash Master

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    Hmm well i dont know the matchup so dunno, but shiri seems to have the right idea.

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