The "New" Misfire Thread

[Vudujin]

I thought I'd bring back this thread since everyone's dying to talk about how they know how to misfire on command. . . . . . . but seriously folks.

I would like to compile data of the observations of misfire, so a player could essentially "know" when to use it. It's such a damn good move, and if you knew it was gonna happen it would be amazing.

I saw as TAS video of Luigi's race to the finish, and in the comments the author mentioned that no matter how many save states were reloaded if Luigi didn't get the misfire at that moment he wouldn't get it. Which leads me to believe that the randomness isn't necessarily activated by the micro-computations of "was side b pressed? > yes > Misfire? > random 1/8 > Yes Misfire/ No Misfire", but rather the randomness may be based on a timeline where 12.5% of the points on the timeline are misfire "opportunities".

Another aspect I'd like to point out is how the 1/8th seems to spread itself out.
If I have a day where I'm not getting misfires, I usually don't get ANY or very little.
If I start getting them I usually find that I gradually get more, and that I try for them more knowing that I'm starting to get the odds on my side.
The 1/8th would still be the average, but it just isn't presented in the small context of a match as "I pressed side-B seven times. . . this next one's the big one", but rather in the game's data itself.

I've also noticed that whenever it's the ONLY move that will either follow up a combo, or put me just far enough to get back to the ledge or the stage, it always pulls through.

Soooo. . . . what I want you fellow Luigi players out there to help me with is:

-Trying misfire offensively if it would work in a situation
-Misfire more if you start getting them
-Believe
-Help find something concrete that triggers it.

I can't almost see it in Luigi's face when he wants me to press side-b, just cause. . . he knows.

This thread will be crossing the line into "super duper what if theory", but that's the way this character is played. I just don't want clash of the realists vs. the theorists. Ideas from both and all groups are welcome.

 

[BluEG]

when you accidentally misfire off the edge, you get another to get ya back haha. Usually.

I personally think its random though.
Believe. I like that

 

[Seartu]

This thread got me and my roommate talking. What if as soon as Luigi spawns he carries around (for lack of a better term) a sort of invisible marker. And the calculation for a succeeding missile takes place immediately after the previous missile.

I hope that makes sense. I honestly don't believe this is how it works but it might make sense in that sort of TAS situation.

Also, after reading about all the bizarre stage/port combinations that result in a pre-charged up-b none of us can pretend to know how the slippery fella really works.

 

[BluEG]

Is there anyway to look at the source ode of smash?

 

[Vudujin]

I think so.

The author of the vid said that he looked for a command like "always misfire" or some stipulation that could trigger it, and he found nothing.

I've been trying misfires as soon as matches start, and it's amazing on FD. You just explode into them and GO isn't even off the screen yet.

 

[BluEG]

I've been trying misfires as soon as matches start, and it's amazing on FD. You just explode into them and GO isn't even off the screen yet.

Lol! Your my hero.

 

[Seartu]

Lol! Your my hero.

Right? I'm just hoping that post 1,500 is super epic.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I can probably look into this for you guys, but I'm pretty certain it's random and out of your control. I have a pretty good understanding of Melee's random functions, and I don't believe Luigi's misfire behaves any differently from any other random event.

 

[Seartu]

Hey IE, that would be cool. I'm pretty skeptical about it being anything other than random. I'm certainly curious about how that randomness is determined. Especially because of this:

I saw as TAS video of Luigi's race to the finish, and in the comments the author mentioned that no matter how many save states were reloaded if Luigi didn't get the misfire at that moment he wouldn't get it. Which leads me to believe that the randomness isn't necessarily activated by the micro-computations of "was side b pressed? > yes > Misfire? > random 1/8 > Yes Misfire/ No Misfire", but rather the randomness may be based on a timeline where 12.5% of the points on the timeline are misfire "opportunities".

Also, my roomate had a pretty silly idea. It isn't correct because the odds would be 1/5 but he suggested that maybe it was based off the game clock to missfire when the game clock ends on a 2 or a 7 just like when you unlock Luigi.

 

[Pakman]

The way "random" numbers work in computers isn't so random. In general you have a seed and a hashing algorithm. The seed is usually the time as a number (time is represented by the number of milliseconds since whatever the system defines as the epoch) and the hashing algorithm uses the seed in some way to generator values in a sequence. This seed number from milliseconds is very hard to reproduce consistently so random generally seems truly random.

The reason I bring this up is that if multiple random number generators(RNG) are seeded with the same seed, the results ALWAYS FOLLOW IN THE SAME ORDER. For example if I seed a RNG with the number 27 and get 3 seemingly random numbers. Lets just assume they are 10, 24 and 38. If we recreate the random number generator again and seed it with 27, the first three numbers will be 10, 24, and 38.

When you save state, you also save the random number generator. So whatever number it generates first after you load from the state is the same number it will ALWAYS generate first after you load from that state.

It is pretty much impossible to predict the next unknown number from a given seed, but the sequence of numbers from the same seed and the same hashing algorithm in different RNG will always be the same.

That being said.

Please do not discuss the probability of Misfire in this thread or it will be closed. This topic has been discussed in length in the past and the result is always 1/8.

 

[Seartu]

The seed is usually the time as a number (time is represented by the number of milliseconds since whatever the system defines as the epoch) and the hashing algorithm uses the seed in some way to generator values in a sequence. This seed number from milliseconds is very hard to reproduce consistently so random generally seems truly random.

Perfect. Shows what I know about this sort of thing but I had no idea that this was common practice.

 

[Dan Salvato]

In Melee's case, there are events that affect random seed besides time passed. I haven't tested extensively, but certain character actions alter the random seed, such as dashing or using certain attacks. Memory address 0x804D5F90 is a 32-bit value that changes multiple times per frame and is used for calculating all random events in Melee. I could investigate exactly how the seed is determined, but I don't see the point in doing this because there is virtually nothing you can do to predict or time misfires or other random events. For all human purposes, consider it completely random.

 

[Vudujin]

Please do not discuss the probability of Misfire in this thread or it will be closed. This topic has been discussed in length in the past and the result is always 1/8.

I basically just wanted to figure out how the randomness was determined, and now that I do . . . . .

Can this be the Misfire Diaries Thread? We can share our tales luck with each other. I don't really see any problem with closing it if we're not beating the dead probability horse.

 

[BluEG]

I've been Using side-b when samus does a standing missile, you go right through, misfire or not and hit them.

When do you usually attempt to get the misfire so that you don't get punished horribly if it doesn't go off?

 

[Cinbad]

I love when a fox comes off the edge to shine and takes a misfire to the face

 

[Vudujin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MqLslUrlE&feature=player_detailpage#t=1005s

L is for Luigi combo!! He was speechless after getting hit by it so he just let it kill him.

 

[-ACE-]

There should be a luigi experiment. Everyone that sees this pick luigi and side-b 100 times and post how many misfires you get.

I just did it after reading this and got 17.

 

[Renth]

There should be a luigi experiment. Everyone that sees this pick luigi and side-b 100 times and post how many misfires you get.

I just did it after reading this and got 17.

17/100??

That sounds awfully low.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Finishing offstage combos with semi-charge side-B can be legit IMO. If they have no jump a lot of time evading the side-B means air-dodging to their death so... it can be useful with a lead. And sometimes their recovery legitimately takes prep in which case semi-charge side-B into them can just trap them. Most people don't expect Luigi to go out after them like that (they expect his horizontal range ends at his DJ forward > fair space) so there's also some surprise value - you can catch a lot of inexperienced people offguard with nonsense like this. Just remember to save your jump to give yourself a chance at surviving if you whiff (and sometimes pray you don't misfire). Having your tornado saved improves this, but by less than you'd expect.

Using it to edgeguard is also legit. But everything can be an edgeguard honestly. I like it vs Falcons on FD because if you position well you can hit them before they land if they go deep and still react to the fade away and missile on it. Misfires sometimes suck.

Luigi is really cool.

I think fireball is a misunderstood move. It's just a poke. Like a jab that moves forward. It sucks, but it's usable if spaced. Might interrupt something because of positioning? I dunno.

I also think f-smash is **** and should be used more (but not sure where). Up angled f-smash has such dirty KB & KO potential on floaties & semi-floaties...

 

[BluEG]

I tilt fsmash down against fast fallers, it's sends them at a horrible angle for them to recover. Makes for an easy edgeguard or an outright kill around 80-90% (especially on falco)

Fireball is great. So underrated. I try to Interrupt aerial approaches and then hit them at the exact moment the fireball hits so they can't retaliate. People also try all they can to not get hit by it, lul. Ledge cancel fireball is pretty awesome too. Also <3 vududash!

 

[Theftz22]

The best thing about the fireball is that it's slow, and you're WD is fast, so you can use it to add pressure and (relative) safety to your WD approaches. It just kind of occupies space for you and forces your opponent to do something, so it can be viewed kind of like Dhalsim's yoga fire in that way. All this is basically null and void against someone with a quicker projectile however. It can also be used to cover your recovery sometimes but that's a bit more gimmicky.

 

[Beat!]

17/100??

That sounds awfully low.

Pretty high, actually. Average should be 12.5/100.

 

[ajajayjay]

How the heck does vidujin wavedash off a ledge, fireball, and maintain his momentum? What are the mechanics of this AT?

 

[BluEG]

How the heck does vidujin wavedash off a ledge, fireball, and maintain his momentum? What are the mechanics of this AT?

Those are the mechanics.

Essentially when you shoot a fireball you retain the speed you have at the start of te animation. Basically you time the fireball to start the moment you would leave a ledge/platform and you go flying

 

[A-1]

i once got a misfire 6 times in one game, one of them being off the edge and hitting the other person trying to edge guard me winning me the game lol

 

[pokemongeof]

Guys, I found out what controls things like Misfire.

Read this!: http://ssbmo.com/26/

But I think we don't have control over it. But it seems that Running, Shielding, Spot Dodging and Smash Attacks affect what will happen in the Random Seed

 

[Pakman]

Although interesting, that won't have any effect on predicting or controlling the misfire in a normal game. We can figure out exactly which seeds produce misfires, but it will be impossible to know what the seed value is in a normal game.

If they can hack it to re-seed with the same number during each event that changes the seed, then we can have games with all misfires or all stitch faces which sounds kind of fun.

 

[ZEN 777]

I've been trying misfires as soon as matches start, and it's amazing on FD. You just explode into them and GO isn't even off the screen yet.

Thats fantastic!
I'm always going to try to do that now.

I've been messing around with 20XX's "always misfire" setting and have been experimenting with edge canceling my misfires just because I think its hilarious. I had some absurd luck against a mildly technical fox on stream a couple days ago where I got 6 misfires in one game. (3 of them in a row) And even though I played pretty sloppy and didn't really punish as well as I could have, I still really love the video because I edge canceled 2 of my misfires haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvzBbuC7e7Y

(feel free to comment on how I could improve my luigi) (BTW i chaingrab now haha)

 

[Sixsoul]

I created an account just to share this idea: I'm a Luigi main and I was playing a Marth a few days ago. Three out of the first five side B's I used were misfires during this game, including a back to back misfire where the first one sent me impossibly far off stage and the second one brought me back. Now I find myself offstage to the left (F.O.D.) with the Marth in a common edge guarding position. I feel deep in my soul that the next side B will misfire (they tend to come in bunches), so I decide to aim for the Marth standing on stage. Of course I do misfire, but the Marth clearly also felt deep in his soul that I would misfire, so he perfectly tippered me and off I went.

Now this got me to thinking about how that interaction would have gone if the 3 of the previous 5 side Bs weren't misfires. Marth definitely wouldn't be expecting a misfire, but I probably wouldn't have either, thus I probably wouldn't have gone for the misfire hit and likely just get shot to the other side of FOD. But if I did get that feeling anyways, there's a decent chance I would've gone for it regardless. Would the Marth have played for it? Probably not. But since 3 of the last 5 were misfires, should I have expected the Marth to expect it? It's a 50/50 call. It was our first game against each other so I had no idea if he was good or not (turned out to be decent, but not as good as me). It's an interesting subject though, diving into butterfly effect land. The psychology behind misfires and how it affects the game is a good thing to discuss and think about as a Luigi.

 

[Jelson]

Edge-cancelled misfire attempts are pretty nice on platforms. Your opponent gets hit whether or not the green missile misfires, and you just plop on the floor.

Edit: Found something this morning. Do a SH backward to get Luigi backflipping, and as soon as he's about to hit the ground green missile forward. Luigi will hit the ground almost instantly. This is a decent way to fish for misfires. Unfortunately, Luigi seems to hit the ground before the hit box even comes out, so I'd only do this if they're off stage or tech roll away.

 

[Scarlet Bean]

when you accidentally misfire off the edge, you get another to get ya back haha. Usually.

I personally think its random though.
Believe. I like that

Lmao they call that my signature move dude

 

[CrocWarlord]

Curious, have there been any attempts to RNG manipulate this game? For example, in the GBA Fire Emblem games there is like a set order of randomness and certain cursor movements can skip over numbers to get the desired value.

 

[Vega$]

The only thing I could think of is to create some sort of scratch in the cd itself. Maybe the misfire can be made to up our percentage to 69%. The problem is, we would then all have to willingly agree that luigi now has a 69% chance of misfiring. I have absolutely no problem with this.

By the way this reminds me of Pokemon Blue Version for some strange reason. At first playing the game I grew up never thinking about the critical hit. But as I kept on learning about the game I started to realize a certain flaw. I always hit critical hits with one move when others could not. But only one particular move. I think everyone can basically agree that the first time we started noticing the flaw in the critical hit system was the move "karate chop". How long did it take for everyone to start to notice this? Well if it happened at 96% or whatever then obviously very quickly the silly thing would be noticed. But the power of the misfire is actually determined in our fingertips. The misfire maybe is only noticed at a rate of 1/8. I think we get the best ****ing unexpected killer in the game. We get a 87.5% chance that the opponent does not expect it and will not catch on to it.