The Graveyard: Disconfirmed Character Thread (SAKURAAAAAAAAAI!)

[Deleted member]

Why is Rayman on here?

Because he was disconfirmed on Monday.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Hey, I just want for the trainer to be solo this time, if it's THAT complicated.

Only instead of fighting with his bare hands, the 6 pokemon he carries with him this time "spawn" in to become his attacks.

Or it could become another puppeteer character like Rosalina. There's no rule against another similar character (and I won't ever get tired of addressing this, but we got 3.5 swordsmen from Fire Emblem in the game).

 

[rmw6190]

So being a trophy counts as a de-confirmation. I mean I dont think rayman or wonder red are getting in the game, but if wonder red gets in the game I wouldnt be surprised(rayman would be a huge surprise though)

 

[pupNapoleon]

I've been mostly silent about what constitutes a character disconfirmation, but Rayman being considered a disconfirmation because he was shown as a trophy is just pushing it far beyond the limit.

If Rayman were just in the game as a trophy, Sakurai would have no business to even show it before the games were released, making it a fun little Easter Egg buried within.

Yet, this is not what happened. Instead, we were shown Rayman. Not just shown, but teased, and during a day we were already hyped for a character reveal, to theoretically build suspicion that he would be said character (though realistically of course not, that would be the reveal itself). Not many thought Rayman would even be in the game. Pacman's trailer seemed to put third parties to rest, especially with the gaming icons motif Sakurai stressed during the round table, being complete with the third parties present.

This reveal day was not a day we needed hype, this was not a day we needed further speculation. It was in fact a day we could have had a completely filler PotD. Instead, we got Rayman.... why? Why even bother to raise hype for a character that had virtually no hype or plausibility to his name prior?

My guess was to give us something to fall back on after the characters were in fact revealed- something to comment on i that moment, to forget about after the excitement of the new characters died down, and then to further speculate on as another wave of awesome-fan-hype-hypathon for later use. That is essentially good marketing, constant waves of something to talk about and be hyped about. This is why it happened right before the character reveal. Otherwise, there truly was no reason to even both showing Rayman.

Thus, I call Rayman's tombstone into question, and I furthermore would like to vote on the issue.

 

[WertQuadNine]

Amazing thread and very depressing Helped with my signature!

 

[shinhed-echi]

I do think it's fishy that Rayman's trophy was revealed out of the blue on the day we were going to have a character announced. In fact... We got sucker punched real hard that day because most of us were expecting Shulk. Then RAYMAN shows up as a trophy, and the reveal was ultimately Robin + Lucina. My brain was all over the wall.

But yeah, a Rayman trophy, hmm.... On one hand, it was the perfect day to say "LOOK! Here's a Rayman trophy!" so it didn't go unnoticed. But on the other hand, it would have been a really cool surprise to find.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

If a character is first shown as anything but a playable character, they aren't going to be playable. The only exceptions to this that I can think of is the Miis, since they're often used for game/player profiles in other games anyway, and R.O.B in Brawl, since there were shown to be several of them.

I admit that I cannot say this for certain, but at the same time it seems like much too direct of a "tease" to actually be a tease, even by Sakurai's standards. Many characters have been disconfirmed by being shown as Assist Trophies or just Trophies, and given this precedent it's likely the same case for Rayman. There still remains the question of why Rayman is in the game at all though.

At the very least, I do think Rayman has a shot at being DLC. For now though I think Rayman is better off being counted as disconfirmed.

 

[iam8bit]

If Rayman were just in the game as a trophy, Sakurai would have no business to even show it before the games were released, making it a fun little Easter Egg buried within.

Why would Sakurai spoil the surprise of a playable Rayman by just showing him in trophy form?

The POTD was probably just done as a "thank you" to Ubisoft for giving them the model.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Why would Sakurai spoil the surprise of a playable Rayman by just showing him in trophy form?

The POTD was probably just done as a "thank you" to Ubisoft for giving them the model.

You ruin your own point! You yourself just stated you believe showing the trophy is a nod to Ubisoft-
You inherently just answered yourself that he is not spoiling the surprise, he is bringing Rayman into question!

My point is that it is a poor marketing choice to even bring Rayman into question if he (or the Rabbids, by chance) are not a character in the game, because otherwise they were not highly speculated to begin with (for reasons stated in my previous post). There is no reason to raise expectations in such a way if not to only later content them, just as the rise and fall of the tonic in music before the beautiful cadence.

He brought Rayman into question right before the character reveal simply because it stirred the pot at the exact right moment, to keep excitement and questions raised (and overshadowed), right before others (regarding the character reveal) were answered.

 

[ihskeyp]

You ruin your own point! You yourself just stated you believe showing the trophy is a nod to Ubisoft-
You inherently just answered yourself that he is not spoiling the surprise, he is bringing Rayman into question!

My point is that it is a poor marketing choice to even bring Rayman into question if he (or the Rabbids, by chance) are not a character in the game, because otherwise they were not highly speculated to begin with (for reasons stated in my previous post). There is no reason to raise expectations in such a way if not to only later content them, just as the rise and fall of the tonic in music before the beautiful cadence.

He brought Rayman into question right before the character reveal simply because it stirred the pot at the exact right moment, to keep excitement and questions raised (and overshadowed), right before others (regarding the character reveal) were answered.

He only raised the expectations of naive fans. He showed a trophy, and pretty much thanked them for sending a model for the trophy which made his life a little easier. He wouldn't have shown the picture if Rayman was playable. Sakurai HATES spoilers, that's why he doesn't want another subspace type story, why would he spoil the inclusion of a character in his own game? He wouldn't. He's a just a trophy.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Sakurai HATES spoilers, that's why he doesn't want another subspace type story, why would he spoil the inclusion of a character in his own game? He wouldn't. He's a just a trophy.

Oh this again. Really, can people stop going around claiming Sakurai abhors spoilers from misinterpreting what he said about the SSE cutscenes on youtube? It wasn't them spoiling the SSE's "story" that he hated, it was the fact that being on youtube made the cutscenes no longer a reward for buying and playing the game, when they were already hugely resource intensive. Also, Sakurai had spoilered his own game before (see the DOJO, where he started posting about unlockable characters the day immediate after Brawl's Japanese release, and revealed most of the unlockables before the NTSC release (and all of them before the PAL release)).

Anyway, regarding Rayman, it's difficult to say if he's disconfirmed without it being explictly stated, as Sakurai has already gone against what was "implied" many times (Toon Link just being a background character, Palutena just being a statue, Phosphora just being a trophy). However, while newcomers have been alluded to and teased before reveal (such as Palutena and possibly Ridley), they have never been explicitly referred to and flatout shown in whole, outside the aforementioned R.O.B. in Brawl. And R.O.B. had the excuse that there's many of them, which Rayman doesn't. Rayman, being an unexpected third party, would also be the character you would absolutely hide before revealing to tremendous shock, instead of wasting most of it on a potd of a trophy. So I think Rayman is pretty much 99% disconfirmed without being potential DLC.

 

[Pacack]

Isn't Daitoryo basically just Napoleon?

Strangely, that word translates to "President" though.

Daitoryo was inspired by Napoleon, but the two are extremely different.

Due to the differences, Daitoryo is fully owned by Nintendo by parody law. So he's a Nintendo character that's based off of a real person.

The fact that Daitoryo means president is actually a misconception on the part of the creator. He thought Napoleon himself was a president. However, it now basically just means that the cards are of "presidential" quality.

 

[Ultinarok]

Oh this again. Really, can people stop going around claiming Sakurai abhors spoilers from misinterpreting what he said about the SSE cutscenes on youtube? It wasn't them spoiling the SSE's "story" that he hated, it was the fact that being on youtube made the cutscenes no longer a reward for buying and playing the game, when they were already hugely resource intensive. Also, Sakurai had spoilered his own game before (see the DOJO, where he started posting about unlockable characters the day immediate after Brawl's Japanese release, and revealed most of the unlockables before the NTSC release (and all of them before the PAL release)).

Anyway, regarding Rayman, it's difficult to say if he's disconfirmed without it being explictly stated, as Sakurai has already gone against what was "implied" many times (Toon Link just being a background character, Palutena just being a statue, Phosphora just being a trophy). However, while newcomers have been alluded to and teased before reveal (such as Palutena and possibly Ridley), they have never been explicitly referred to and flatout shown in whole, outside the aforementioned R.O.B. in Brawl. And R.O.B. had the excuse that there's many of them, which Rayman doesn't. Rayman, being an unexpected third party, would also be the character you would absolutely hide before revealing to tremendous shock, instead of wasting most of it on a potd of a trophy. So I think Rayman is pretty much 99% disconfirmed without being potential DLC.

This. Never, ever has Sakurai shown ANYTHING directly about a character prior to a potential reveal. A teaser, a loose-worded sentence, or a hint towards the franchise maybe, but never outright. If you call Ray-man into question, then you might as well call everyone into question on the notion that "just cause' they've been shown doesn't mean they're not in as playable."

An unexpected third party character getting "revealed" as a random PotD prior to actual character reveals is just stupid. And if Ray-man was revealed now, all hype would be gone. He's not in.

 

[DeathFox137]

I heard that the only reason why Rayman got a trophy spot was because while Rayman had a multi platform release, it was still a Wii U exclusive in Japan. Hope this helps for information.

 

[TechPowah]

As for the fact that they chose that day for Rayman's trophy as the POTC, let's take a reminder that it was probably to help Ubisoft celebrate Bastille Day.

 

[pupNapoleon]

It makes absolutely no sense to clamor that showing Rayman now means he would not be a surprise, and then state that you do not expect him at all after the picture of the day.
If the picture does not mean you expect him, then he would still hold just as much surprise value.
On the flip side, showing him to even bring him into question when he is not in the game is ridiculous, because it makes others question if he is in the game, which is a bad marketing move if he were not to be.

That is just more of the tactic we have seen time and time again by Sakurai, and at the very least to any sane jury, would be considered Reasonable doubt.

This brings me back to my point of calling his disconfirmation into question, and I call for a vote.

 

[Opossum]

I really don't see the need, but I'll call a vote. The poll will last one day, and at least five people must vote: Shall we dig Ray Man a grave?

 

[Swift Fox]

I really don't see the need, but I'll call a vote. The poll will last one day, and at least five people must vote: Shall we dig Ray Man a grave?

Yes.

 

[ihskeyp]

I really don't see the need, but I'll call a vote. The poll will last one day, and at least five people must vote: Shall we dig Ray Man a grave?

Yeah, dig it up

 

[Opossum]

I, too, vote yes. Forgot to mention that.

There's really no reason to say he's not disconfirmed. He outright showed him as a trophy.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I really don't see the need, but I'll call a vote. The poll will last one day, and at least five people must vote: Shall we dig Ray Man a grave?

Voting yes to this as well.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Rayman* Not Ray Man, Ray-Man, Raymond, or any of the like.

Bit sad to see people outright dismissing him when he's potentially broken a completely new barrier.

Are we also forgetting Toon Link on the train? I hardly think a simple trophy deconfirms a character, particularly when playable characters have trophies. I could very well see it as being some slick move by Sakurai to surprise us. That being said, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he's playable, but I won't count him out just yet. That means that I vote against the grave.

 

[Opossum]

Rayman* Not Ray Man, Ray-Man, Raymond, or any of the like.

Bit sad to see people outright dismissing him when he's potentially broken a completely new barrier.

Are we also forgetting Toon Link on the train? I hardly think a simple trophy deconfirms a character, particularly when playable characters have trophies. I could very well see it as being some slick move by Sakurai to surprise us. That being said, I'm not going to fool myself into thinking he's playable, but I won't count him out just yet. That means that I vote against the grave.

We have every reason to believe Ramen's not playable. Yes, every playable character gets a trophy. That's irrelevant to the fact that newcomers are only shown in their trailers first, and not beforehand. We have every reason to believe he's not playable. Plus, technically that's a different Link. There's only one of him though.

 

[JamesDNaux]

We have every reason to believe Ramen's not playable. Yes, every playable character gets a trophy. That's irrelevant to the fact that newcomers are only shown in their trailers first, and not beforehand. We have every reason to believe he's not playable. Plus, technically that's a different Link. There's only one of him though.

He still gets replaced whenever Toon Link is fighting. Also, if any of the Dark Pit fans are correct, if he's playable, then he would have been shown beforehand without being formally revealed. My current belief is that, like Snake in Melee, Rayman was too late to make it in to the game. However, Snake did appear in Brawl, so with this game being the first one with the possibility of DLC, I see Sakurai's inclusion of Rayman as a simple trophy as a nod towards possible DLC. Though he would still technically be "deconfirmed" until said DLC. But there is the possibility that he is playable in the game, as small as it may be.

Also, lovely choice of food in the bolded.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Toon Link on the Train is a different Link?
Not at all the case.
I vote no, do not dig him a grave.
Hopefully this vote will last until EST daytime.

 

[Autumn ♫]

How about we make the grave for him, but we just don't put him in the grave? That sound fair to everyone?

Nah, but honestly, I vote to make the grave.

 

[Kalimdori]

I vote no, until we figure out for sure why he has two trophies. (Yes, it could be an updated model, could be an animated trophy (Although I can't see how his torso would magically grow), could be a character trophy and a mix up with Nintendo and Ubisoft.) And no, it isn't the 3DS/Wii U versions, the quality is just because Facebook's image quality sucks.

If it was any other character then Rayman with two trophies I would say yes. But he's a third party. Third Party. Shown right before the reveal of a new character. Timing could have been a coincidence, might not have been. I cannot see why a third party character would get two separate trophies, unless it's one of the reasons I listed.

I honestly disagree with several of the characters listed as "Disconfirmed", but Rayman bugs me the most. If we are going with "Shown before officially revealed" as our guideline for disconfirmation, then Ridley, Dark Pit, Toon Link, Mr Game and Watch, and Palutena should all be disconfirmed as well. In my eyes, a disconfirmation of a character is when a character is shown in such a role as they cannot be playable, or explicitly stated by Sakurai that they won't be playable.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I vote yes. Since Tiki got a trophy and people claimed she was deconfirmed, I find it fair to do the same for Rayman.

P.S. Forgot to mention how Wonderful 101 Red was treated when his trophy was revealed. Rayman is in the same boat as Wonderful 101 Red, deconfirmed.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

The playable TL has the Wind Waker in his taunt. The one on the train dons the conductor outfit worn only by the Link in Spirit Tracks.

It should be pretty clear Sakurai intended to establish them as separate characters here, just like they are in their own universe. While Alfonzo does replace the ST Link when WW Link is being used on the stage, this is likely because Sakurai acknowledges there could still be some confusion between the two Toon Links.

But Toon Link aside, as I've said before, even by Sakurai's unpredictable and vague standards, there's really no reason why he would show off a newcomer as a mere trophy or the like before actually revealing that the character is playable. That's not how characters are teased, it's meant to show the character in question is not playable. Although there is still the question of why Rayman's trophy was shown at all. Considering Rayman is in the game at all, there will likely be other similar third-party trophes, and Rayman's in particular was simply the one that Sakurai chose to show first. Of course I definitely can't say that for certain, but it makes sense.

As for DLC, I don't believe that Rayman might be planned for DLC either. But in this particular case that's just my personal belief on the matter, and I won't try to convince anyone else otherwise.

 

[Mr.Seven]

I vote to dig him a grave. It's pretty much common sense to show off any new playable characters with a trailer or screenshots that show said character in action. In the case of Rayman, we get him as a trophy. Nothing more. That leads no reason to believe that he's playable in any way.

 

[Curious Villager]

The playable TL has the Wind Waker in his taunt. The one on the train dons the conductor outfit worn only by the Link in Spirit Tracks.

It should be pretty clear Sakurai intended to establish them as separate characters here, just like they are in their own universe. While Alfonzo does replace the ST Link when WW Link is being used on the stage, this is likely because Sakurai acknowledges there could still be some confusion between the two Toon Links.

Or maybe because Sakurai might want to make Conductor Link an alternate costume for Toon Link like he apparently planned to have Lucina be that way.

Wait.... wouldn't that mean that Conductor Link would be no longer disconfirmed and needing to be dug out of the grave.... oh jolly we could have our first zombie.

 

[LeeYawshee]

I vote Yes. But not for the reason that he got a trophy.

Rather, for the reason that his model was not made by the people who are making the characters, instead his model was made by Ubisoft themselves. That seems a little weird, all things considering.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Yes, because Sakurai clearly stated that Ubisoft sent them the model of Rayman.

 

[Donalp15]

Rayman should stay in the ground. We have had no reason to believe characters shown as trophies are also be playable and Rayman is no exception. There are just simply no hints to point to this.

 

[JamesDNaux]

People are ignoring the fact that Rayman is a third party character, you can't just compare him to any random Nintendo trophy.

Something is up with his trophy, there's no doubt about that. This just isn't normal.

 

[ikke471]

I say dig the poor sod up!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Leave him in the ground. His model was made by Ubisoft, ergo, not rigged for Animation. Besides, I heard it was a WiiU exclusive in Japan, the one country where Microsoft's greedy Xbawk policies can't ruin games (granted Japan finds a lot of ways to ruin games themselves but that's another story.)

 

[8-peacock-8]

People are ignoring the fact that Rayman is a third party character, you can't just compare him to any random Nintendo trophy.

Something is up with his trophy, there's no doubt about that. This just isn't normal.

Well... Someone said what I was going to already.

 

[TechPowah]

However, There has never been a character that was shown in-game before their reveal as playable, and any character that was shown first isn't playable. The only possible exceptions to this has been Game and Watch and maybe Toon Link (I don't think Spirit Tracks Link should count anyway, since not only are those Links completely different in the games to begin with, but Sakurai already said that Alfonso can replace ST Link without Toon Link being in that match so it's not even exclusively a "character ot being in the background to join the fight" deal.)

Besides, I still hold that Rayman's trophy being shown when it was is only because Sakurai/Nintendo wanted to help Ubisoft celebrate Bastille Day.

 

[Deleted member]

Put Rayman in the grave. I think that he got disconfirmed.