Isaac for DLC - One day. Some day. Golden Sunday.

[Skyblade12]

Something like:

Down+B rotates through Venus Djinni:

Flint: Standard. All stats are unmodified.

Sap: B attacks slightly heal Isaac. A attacks deal slightly less damage. Changes Smash animations and Neutral special.

Bane: All A attacks deal 10% more damage and deal slightly more knockback. All B moves deal 10% less damage and less knockback. Changes Smash animations and Neutral Special.

Problem: That seems very close to a transform mechanic, which they removed.

 

[N3ON]

Problem: That seems very close to a transform mechanic, which they removed.

Cycling through different B attacks isn't that close to a transformation mechanic, it still only deals with a single character, and a single character file. If anything it'd be closer to Kirby hats.

 

[Skyblade12]

Cycling through different B attacks isn't that close to a transformation mechanic, it still only deals with a single character, and a single character file. If anything it'd be closer to Kirby hats.

Kirby changes a single ability, not all of them. The main issue is that it essentially makes a character cycle through (in this case) 12 specials instead of the usual 4. Even transformation characters only had 8 to go through. The entire point was an issue in both balance and playability between multiple forms. I don't think this idea would make it in.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Hey guys I have a question. How do you think Sakurai will incorporate the Golden Sun Series into Smash Brothers? Basically, does he see as more modern or classical?

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as a Classic, then would we get Isaac? (Kid form obviously)

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as Modern, then would we get Matthew?

Just a thought.

 

[Skyblade12]

Hey guys I have a question. How do you think Sakurai will incorporate the Golden Sun Series into Smash Brothers? Basically, does he see as more modern or classical?

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as a Classic, then would we get Isaac? (Kid form obviously)

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as Modern, then would we get Matthew?

Just a thought.

Isaac is more iconic/recognizable. Matthew is an alt skin.

Unless Golden Sun 4 is going to be announced at the same time. Please?

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Isaac is more iconic/recognizable. Matthew is an alt skin.

Unless Golden Sun 4 is going to be announced at the same time. Please?

Do you see Isaac as an Unlockable or Starter character?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Hey guys I have a question. How do you think Sakurai will incorporate the Golden Sun Series into Smash Brothers? Basically, does he see as more modern or classical?

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as a Classic, then would we get Isaac? (Kid form obviously)

If Sakurai sees Golden Sun as Modern, then would we get Matthew?

Just a thought.

Isaac, hands down. It doesn't matter if its a classic or not, Isaac is the most iconic character in the franchise, and one of TWO characters to be playable in ALL THREE games (even if he is only a guest in Dark Dawn).

Here's how I see the difference working:

1.) If its treated as a Classic, its young Isaac from Golden Sun.

2.) If its treated as Modern, we get adult Isaac from Dark Dawn.


Either way, we'll still get Isaac regardless.

Do you see Isaac as an Unlockable or Starter character?

It can go either way. If they have a Golden Sun 4 coming out, Starter. If not, Unlockable.

 

[Skyblade12]

Do you see Isaac as an Unlockable or Starter character?

Unlockable, definitely. Too many starters already.

Although, again, unless Golden Sun 4 is getting cross-promoted, in which case better chance at starter.

C'mon, Camelot...

 

[Electric Tuba]

Kirby changes a single ability, not all of them. The main issue is that it essentially makes a character cycle through (in this case) 12 specials instead of the usual 4. Even transformation characters only had 8 to go through. The entire point was an issue in both balance and playability between multiple forms. I don't think this idea would make it in.

A character with four stances would be a lot to get a handle on for players. Perhaps he could just have Venus and Mars, since they're paired elements.

I also would not call it a transformation or anything close, even though there would be two different movesets. See Gen in Street Fighter or Mitsurugi in soul caliber, even Nu or Litchi in BBCP (I recognize there is little precedent for this in smash, but this is the place for ideas)

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Would this be going overboard for Kirby's Isaac hat?

 

[Skyblade12]

Would this be going overboard for Kirby's Isaac hat?

Probably. But I do think he should have both hair and scarf.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Probably. But I do think he should have both hair and scarf.

Yeah, that may be too much.

 

[Bane84]

Thanks to this thread, I've had frequent dreams lately where Isaac has been confirmed or disconfirmed as playable and have woken up excited or disappointed only to realize that it never happened. My subconscious enjoys toying with my emotions.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Would this be going overboard for Kirby's Isaac hat?

I'd guess the scarf at least. Maybe the hair, too, but that's about it.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Has anyone put any thought to having his specials be one-offs? Each one unleashes a djinn and if you use it again, it's a much weaker attack. Neutral b could be summon, and be more or less powerful depending on the number of specials you've used. They could even differentiate between forward and backwards b to have four djinn and cover each element.

This would have been more unique before Robin, but it would certainly make him different regardless. Of what I remember it seems like the most plausible way to implement djinn and weakening from using them.

 

[Skyblade12]

Has anyone put any thought to having his specials be one-offs? Each one unleashes a djinn and if you use it again, it's a much weaker attack. Neutral b could be summon, and be more or less powerful depending on the number of specials you've used. They could even differentiate between forward and backwards b to have four djinn and cover each element.

This would have been more unique before Robin, but it would certainly make him different regardless. Of what I remember it seems like the most plausible way to implement djinn and weakening from using them.

Well, someone might have thought of that. And posted it up on the thread in the last couple of pages. Maybe.

Specials:
Forward B: Venus Djinn. Unleashes a random Venus Djinn to attack. Includes Geode, Flint, Echo, Sap, Steel, and Bane.
These focus on forward attacks that deal damage. The Djinn is summoned above and before Isaac, and swings down with his blade for the strike. The Djinn summoned will determine slight additional effects, such as mild poison or HP recovery, or just more damage.
Down B: Mars Djinn. Unleashes a random Mars Djinn to attack. Includes Fever, Scorch, Torch, Char, Shine, and Fury.
These focus on AOE fire attacks around Isaac. Which Djinn is summoned determines some minor effects, with Shine giving a similar debuff to the traditional flower rod hits, maybe some other minor harassment.
Up B: Jupiter Djinn. Unleashes a random Jupiter Djinn to recover. These include Kite, Gasp, Waft, Whorl, Lull, and Zephyr.
These are recovery moves, with the Djinn blowing Isaac up. Aesthetics may change (I imagine Kite may give him an extra jump), but recovery amount should be near identical.
Neutral B: Summon. Summons Djinn back to Isaac. Power of move depends on number of unleashed Djinn.
Essentially, this Isaac would play as a rotation. You would unleash Djinn with each move. Each time you use a special, the Djinn unleashed becomes unavailable, until eventually you can't perform that special anymore. You see the Djinn floating as little colored dots around Isaac, with color matching the element.
As you unleash more and more Djinn, Isaac's attacks become weaker, and he becomes lighter.
However, when you use Summon, the number of Djinn you have on standby translate into a summon that does extensive damage and restores Isaac's strength. The AOE, exact effect of the summon, etcetera, are all controlled by how many Djinn he has on standby, as summons were managed in Golden Sun. So, while dropping all your Djinn is incredibly risky, since you become one of the weakest and lightest members of the cast, it lets you unleash an incredibly powerful summon.
Unfortunately, Mercury Djinn are left out, but their theme is healing anyway, so it's harder to work them in well.

This does leave out Mercury Djinn and make Isaac-Kirby useless, though, so I refined it to:

Mostly because this ruins one of the critical aspects of Djinn: That unleashing them weakens you.
This is why I've been trying to make a way to make summons work, because that trade off is a really important part of Golden Sun's gameplay that I think Isaac should capture.
So, new build:
Neutral Normal: Sword swing.
Side Normal: Move - Pushes opponent away, as the assist trophy did.
Dash Normal: Force - Fires a fist of force at the foe that knocks them back.
Up Normal: Growth - Grows a vine upwards, hitting enemies.
Down Normal: Gaia - Unleashes a short range earthquake.
Up Smash: Bramble - Growths a massive thorn covered vine upward. Good vertical reach and vertical knockback.
Down Smash: Grand Gaia - Unleashes a wide ranging earthquake. Horizontal knockback on either side.
Side Smash: Ragnarok - Strike with a giant sword. Heavy damage and strong knockback.
Neutral B - Venus Djinn - Unleahes a Venus Djinn to attack nearby foes. Performs a sword strike with a Djinn's added power. Inspired by Flint.
Side B - Mars Djinn - Unleashes a Mars Djinn to attack distant foes. Fires a Mars Djinn out horizontally from Isaac. Inspired by Cannon.
Down B - Mercury Djinn - Unleashes a Mercury Djinn to attack foes nearby. Freezes and strikes surrounding foes. Inspired by Serac.
Up B - Jupiter Djinn - Unleashes a Jupiter Djinn to blow Isaac upwards, attacking nearby foes as well. Inspired by Gale.
Ok, so the setup changes slightly. As with my previous build, unleashing a Djinn weakens Isaac. Up to six Djinn of each element can be unleashed. Now, however, using a Smash-B attack will summon all the currently released Djinn of that element back to Isaac. The more Djinn are unleashed, the more powerful the summon.
Since you can't do a Neutral Smash, Venus is instead summoned by doing an Aerial-Neutral-B, Maybe?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Has anyone put any thought to having his specials be one-offs? Each one unleashes a djinn and if you use it again, it's a much weaker attack. Neutral b could be summon, and be more or less powerful depending on the number of specials you've used. They could even differentiate between forward and backwards b to have four djinn and cover each element.

This would have been more unique before Robin, but it would certainly make him different regardless. Of what I remember it seems like the most plausible way to implement djinn and weakening from using them.

There's got to be some way to balance them out, though. Maybe Isaac has three specials that do that, and another which combines them to perform a Summon. Someone else mentioned this, but here's my take on it:

Isaac has three different Venus Djinn attacks. He can never lose them, but they lose half of their effectiveness when he uses them once (any further does nothing). He can also perform a summon, which is based on how many of his other specials he used (must be different ones, though, or it doesn't count). So that'd be Venus, Ramses, and finally Cybele.

Once he performs a summon, all of his Djinn are powered up more than they were before, depending on the level of the summon. He can't use the ultimate Venus summon, Judgment, because he can only use up to 3 Djinn. Instead, Judgment is his Final Smash.


His standard attacks would consist of a few sword strikes and Venus Psynergy. His grab would combine the various types of Grab moves, and he even has a Tether recovery.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Well, someone might have thought of that. And posted it up on the thread in the last couple of pages. Maybe.



This does leave out Mercury Djinn and make Isaac-Kirby useless, though, so I refined it to:

Ah, really sorry about that, I must have missed a line or two

I wonder if the summon shouldn't be too powerful? It might end up being a bit much to have a very strong attack that buffs Isaac as well. What about recovery time? Maybe the stronger summon, the longer the wait before full power.

 

[JaidynReiman]

There's got to be some way to balance them out, though. Maybe Isaac has three specials that do that, and another which combines them to perform a Summon. Someone else mentioned this, but here's my take on it:

Isaac has three different Venus Djinn attacks. He can never lose them, but they lose half of their effectiveness when he uses them once (any further does nothing). He can also perform a summon, which is based on how many of his other specials he used (must be different ones, though, or it doesn't count). So that'd be Venus, Ramses, and finally Cybele.

Once he performs a summon, all of his Djinn are powered up more than they were before, depending on the level of the summon. He can't use the ultimate Venus summon, Judgment, because he can only use up to 3 Djinn. Instead, Judgment is his Final Smash.


His standard attacks would consist of a few sword strikes and Venus Psynergy. His grab would combine the various types of Grab moves, and he even has a Tether recovery.

This does leave out Mercury Djinn and make Isaac-Kirby useless, though, so I refined it to:

So, in response to this, I'll additionally say in regards to my prior post that the Summon should actually be his Down special. Isaac's standard special could be Flint, since that's his most iconic, but Flint would fit better as a Side Special.


EDIT: Here's my specials idea...

Up+Special: Ground, call upon the Djinn Ground to levitate a floating rock into the air. Loses half its effectiveness after being used once.
Side+Special: Flint, call upon the Djinn Flint to deal a powerful rock-cleaving jump slash. Loses half its effectiveness after being used once.
Standard+Special: Vine, call upon the Djinn Vine to entangle foes in vines. Loses half its effectiveness after being used once.
Down+Special: Summon, use the power of the djinns to summon a powerful ally. For every other special used in between Summons, the Summon's power will get stronger. Summoning takes a while to activate, but the charge can be held. Isaac only does a basic attack if no Djinn have been used yet. Using the same Djinn twice does not increase the counter. All of Isaac's Djinn are restored after Summon is used, and they have an additional temporary bonus to damage for each level of Summon used.

Final Smash: Judgment, obviously.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I like it. But what about a 5 second period after the summon of weak attacks as well?
That's really staying true to the game, a summon rush followed by dullahan wiping your party

 

[Haik]

What did you think about the concept of the specials being summons? A character can have 9 Djinn so we could easily have somewhat powerful specials that can't be spammed, but also aren't one offs with a huge cool-down, like Wario's fart.

I kinda like the concept of making Isaac the Samurai class from the game, giving him psynergy smashes accordingly, and making his specials the ability to set Djinn or summon. It would be a great way to represent the unique aspects of Golden Sun's system and make a 'summoner' which we haven't seen. Plus the number of set Djinn could alter the power of his smashes, which would make using your specials require a bit of forethought if you wanted to keep optimal damage.

Special Moves:

• Neutral: Set Djinn
  • Up to 2 Djinn of an element that are in recovery are set unleashing a small burst of energy around Isaac of its element; if no Djinn are recovering one is unleashed for a slightly larger burst; Djinn will hover around Isaac when in recovery and will reset themselves over time
• Side: Summon Ramses
  • A rocky fist is summoned in front of Isaac traveling some distance before exploding into smaller rocks; if an opponent is hit the fist will explode early; this puts two Djinn in recovery
• Up: Summon Kirin
  • Kirin appears under Isaac and then charges a short distance in whatever direction inputted; this move can be done twice if no Djinn are recovering; Isaac can attack out of this move; this puts two Djinn in recovery
• Down: Summon Atlanta
  • Atlanta appears above Isaac and briefly rains arrows down diagonally on either side of him; this move can be done twice if no Djinn are recovering; this puts two Djinn in recovery

 

[Skyblade12]

Manually setting from Recovery is an odd use of the mechanic. I'm also wondering why you chose those three summons specifically.


Finally, I doubt if he shows up, he'll be a Samurai. He'll be his iconic Squire/Lord class, I'm sure.

 

[Haik]

I completely agree that he'd likely be the Squire/Lord class, but I figured Samurai would be the best choice that keeps his Smashes and Specials completely in line with the actual game (I realize that is not required for Smash, but my brain likes to do things that way).

So the reason for those Summons specifically is that they are summons you'd have access to as a Samurai using 2 Venus, 4 Mars, and 3 Jupiter, they are beyond the basic Venus, Mars, and Jupiter summons, and using a summon below the maximum amount possible allows the move to be used more than once without manually setting.

The reasoning behind the manually setting from recovery is that leaving an Isaac player without specials if they used their summons for however long it takes to reset enough Djinn seems unnecessarily punishing.

 

[Skyblade12]

The reasoning behind the manually setting from recovery is that leaving an Isaac player without specials if they used their summons for however long it takes to reset enough Djinn seems unnecessarily punishing.

Maybe this is the Robin in my speaking, but I consider it all part of playing tactically.

Also, it does massively hurt Isaac-Kirby.

 

[Electric Tuba]

Manually setting from Recovery is an odd use of the mechanic. I'm also wondering why you chose those three summons specifically.


Finally, I doubt if he shows up, he'll be a Samurai. He'll be his iconic Squire/Lord class, I'm sure.

I have to second this. I love the samurai and disciple classes (almost as much as chaos lord!), but if he's in it's almost guaranteed that he'll be the standard all Venus djinn class (maybe with extra psyenergy from other elements, but..)

 

[Electric Tuba]

I think the recovery, especially after a powerful summon, is very important. Otherwise, players will build up a summon as quickly as possible and just use it with no penalty

And like I said earlier, that's equally an equally important part the djinn cycle (unleash, summon, recover)

 

[Haik]

I don't know. I just don't like the concept of being knocked off twice and then not having a recovery anymore.

As for Isaac-Kirby, my proposed Isaac would still unleash a Djinn(think basic summon) if none are recovering for an omni-directional burst of the appropriate energy around the character. Fairly standard for a basic special at least in my mind.

Edit: I completely agree that a recovery should exist, but I think if the player wants to take downtime from the offensive to accelerate the recovery that should be an option.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Even though it would be faithful to the series, Isaac should not have any attacks that weaken him after using Djinn, since it would just be unnecessary stress for Isaac players.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Even though it would be faithful to the series, Isaac should not have any attacks that weaken him after using Djinn, sine it would just be unnecessary stress for Isaac players.

Yeah, I agree. At worst, weaken just that one attack, but not Isaac as a whole. All things considered, he may not include a weakening system at all, since Robin's tomes can regenerate, obviously that's not an option in Fire Emblem. When a Weapon dies, its DEAD, period. The only exception is in Geneology of the Holy War, where you can repair items at a castle for a fee, otherwise the only way to regenerate items is with the Hammerne Staff. Which only has 3 uses and only one exists in the game (if it exists at all).

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Yeah, I agree. At worst, weaken just that one attack, but not Isaac as a whole. All things considered, he may not include a weakening system at all, since Robin's tomes can regenerate, obviously that's not an option in Fire Emblem. When a Weapon dies, its DEAD, period. The only exception is in Geneology of the Holy War, where you can repair items at a castle for a fee, otherwise the only way to regenerate items is with the Hammerne Staff. Which only has 3 uses and only one exists in the game (if it exists at all).

How about when he uses Djinn it would make Special attacks that are relative to that Specific Djinn more powerful?

Like if Isaac uses a Venus Djinn then the next time he uses the Venus Djinn Special Attack the attack would be more powerful.

 

[Haik]

I dunno, I basically look at that as the same as weakening the moves because the damage/knockback/range/whatever isn't what it could be if fully powered.

Also, as for the Djinn specific move powerups, that was my basic line of thinking in the moveset I was thinking of. Isaac's Quick Strike is more powerful the more Jupiter Djinn that are set, Rockfall the more Venus, and Dragon Cloud the more Mars. I was also only applying them to those specific moves. That in my mind is probably the best way to implement it and means that Isaac is likely not going to be a spammy character by any means.

On a side note, the Djinn recovery/set and summon idea could still work for the Lord class and only earth summon. Ramses would still be the side, Cybele would likely be a tether recovery, and Judgment could be a down special that sends Isaac upwards to shoot a blast downwards. The Final Smash would have to be an Unleash or even series of Unleashes from his various weapons which could still be quite cool.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I dunno, I basically look at that as the same as weakening the moves because the damage/knockback/range/whatever isn't what it could be if fully powered.

Also, as for the Djinn specific move powerups, that was my basic line of thinking in the moveset I was thinking of. Isaac's Quick Strike is more powerful the more Jupiter Djinn that are set, Rockfall the more Venus, and Dragon Cloud the more Mars. I was also only applying them to those specific moves. That in my mind is probably the best way to implement it and means that Isaac is likely not going to be a spammy character by any means.

On a side note, the Djinn recovery/set and summon idea could still work for the Lord class and only earth summon. Ramses would still be the side, Cybele would likely be a tether recovery, and Judgment could be a down special that sends Isaac upwards to shoot a blast downwards. The Final Smash would have to be an Unleash or even series of Unleashes from his various weapons which could still be quite cool.

The more Djinns that are used could make the Special Attacks more powerful the next time it is used.

 

[Electric Tuba]

I think making him weaker, or at least one attack weaker whenever he uses a djinn special would make him one of the more interesting characters in the game. It could make a really nice balance between offense and defense.

I could be convinced of the sped up recovery, if it were something like Lucas' offense up charge in PM. It would fit fairly well, I agree.

 

[Your Hero]

There's two ways I'd like to see djinn incorporated into Isaac's moveset:

Option A: Make djinn his specials. Each directional special uses a different djinn. This makes custom moves for Isaac easy as well as he can simply switch to a different djinn of the same element, incorporating different effects. This also allows Jupiter djinn to work as his recovery, which I like a lot more than Retreat, Growth or shooting a stone spire out from underneath him (although the latter would be my preferred psynergy-based recovery).

Earth would be neutral B (also gives Isaac Kirby an earth-based attack), side B and down B are Fire/Water (depending on how they want to work it), and up B is Wind.

The only issue with this is that it would be too similar to Robin's specials, which is a shame because this feels more natural to me on Isaac than it does on Robin. In a sense this is also a blessing if they choose to make Isaac a DLC character, as it gives the devs something to work with, simply changing it up a bit.

Option B: Make djinn his smash attacks. The first time you use the smash attack, it is very powerful. However once used the djinn are put into recovery mode, rendering continuous versions of the same smash attack weaker until the djinn recover again (in which they are set in the order they were used). Side smash would be Earth based, down smash would be Fire based, and up smash would be Wind based. Either that or they could set Mercury as up/down and put Jupiter as an aerial attack.

I personally think if djinn are incorporated into Isaac's moveset, he should use all four djinn and not just Venus djinn. Simply because it represents the series better and adds more diversity to is moveset. He is representing all of Golden Sun, not just Venus adepts after all

 

[Electric Tuba]

I second the all four elements. What if Jupiter was side b, and mercury was up b? He could create a pillar of water underneath him, or use good old overworld freeze to rise up. That would by help differentiate him from Robin a little more

 

[Your Hero]

I kind of feel like water recoveries have already been done with squirtle and greninja, ditto with Charizard and Fox/Falco with fire. Robin is the only one to use a wind recovery iirc and I feel it works better with Isaac too. That's just my opinion though.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I kind of feel like water recoveries have already been done with squirtle and greninja, ditto with Charizard and Fox/Falco with fire. Robin is the only one to use a wind recovery iirc and I feel it works better with Isaac too. That's just my opinion though.

Nah, Isaac needs something even more unique. Earth recovery!

 

[Haik]

I could see that, either a plant based recovery or Isaac rides a stalagmite/ctite (depending on how they'd prefer him to stand/ride) upwards

 

[Electric Tuba]

I'd say he could use growth as a tether recovery, but it'd be pretty similar to Ivysaur's. Floating rock/gaia-like attack could work, though.

 

[Your Hero]

Like I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of Retreat or Growth as recoveries. If we had to get a psynergy-based recovery I like the stalagmite idea that I posted many pages ago (the one the guy on Reddit posted).