• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Tafo Talks: The Stakeholders Of Smash

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin

California Smasher, tournament organizer, and blogger for MeleeItOnMe Daniel "Tafokints" Lee has released another of his Tafo's Talk videos on the MeleeItOnMe Youtube channel. His most recent video discusses the clash between players, spectators, top level players, streamers, tournament organizers and more: The Stakeholders Of Smash. See what he has to say on how to balance the interests of them all by watching the video below.


Agree or disagree with what was said? Let us know in the comments below and be sure to stay tuned to Smashboards for future video coverage.

SmashCapps really appreciated this video and found Tafo's thoughts to be very insightful. To keep up the discussion on all things Smash be sure to follow @SmashCapps on Twitter.
 

Fanttum

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
62
People need to take these in consideration when making a choice in your community.
If we want the scene to grow everybody has to be happy, not just a certain group.
 

Turrin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
258
Location
Seattle, Washington
NNID
Turrin
3DS FC
4425-1919-5126
Soo... His point was pretty much explaining what each group wants and why they want it. He offered no solution to make everybody happy. "Yes, this is a conflict that has been occurring lately. Have a good day everyone."
 

Acryte

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 30, 2005
Messages
986
So what you're saying is that we need everyone because everyone contributes? Everyone except the dumbasses who post '1st comment' on every video... because they don't contribute anything at all.
 

Iceweasel

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
855
People need to take these in consideration when making a choice in your community.
If we want the scene to grow everybody has to be happy, not just a certain group.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the dynamics of the Smash community change based on the composition of it. If it's mostly viewers, then the community becomes less about its lifeblood, the players, and becomes a mere spectacle for snotty little assholes and ****posters who weren't even alive when (insert game here) came out. Something becoming popular doesn't necessarily improve it. Look at what happened to gaming - Most of the actual innovation has gone away. In many ways, you could say the art form, as a whole, has regressed since gaming became bigger than Hollywood. It's been shown that this move towards esports and viewer culture has harmed the Smash community as a whole, so why do we continue making them matter more than us?
 

Fanttum

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
62
The problem with this line of reasoning is that the dynamics of the Smash community change based on the composition of it. If it's mostly viewers, then the community becomes less about its lifeblood, the players, and becomes a mere spectacle for snotty little ******** and ****posters who weren't even alive when (insert game here) came out. Something becoming popular doesn't necessarily improve it. Look at what happened to gaming - Most of the actual innovation has gone away. In many ways, you could say the art form, as a whole, has regressed since gaming became bigger than Hollywood. It's been shown that this move towards esports and viewer culture has harmed the Smash community as a whole, so why do we continue making them matter more than us?
This is also why we have to allocate value to these groups. Who decides who gets a say?
I'm not sure what you mean by gaming regressing as a whole, as the community has never grown so fast, innovations have never been so plentiful, and those are all good things.
How has growing harmed it? A spectator in any sport does not get to decide the rules of play. They get to decide with their wallet on what to watch.
Saying the lifeblood is the players is giving too much of a stake to them. Sure with no players there is no game, but with no TO's there are no tournaments, and with no viewers there would be no incentive to stream and share.
This video is explaining these types of problems when those groups overlap, and that is the situation we have to fix. We already know that TO's shouldn't play in their own tournaments, but we also have to separate the spectator from the player. Anybody who watches smash, can play smash. Where does that person fit into these groups, and what kind of stake do they get? Our problem is this overlap.
 

Iceweasel

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
855
This is also why we have to allocate value to these groups. Who decides who gets a say?
I'm not sure what you mean by gaming regressing as a whole, as the community has never grown so fast, innovations have never been so plentiful, and those are all good things.
What's wrong with gaming? Microtransactions, DLC, day-one patches. All done for the sake of big business trying to make a quick buck. We've already seen this start to happen in Smash. APEX and EVO banned Skyloft not because it's a bad stage, but because Nintendo threw a fit about copyrights. APEX made this awful 2-stock Smash 4 meta the standard not because they thought it would be better for the community, but because they wanted Nintendo's shekels.

How has growing harmed it? A spectator in any sport does not get to decide the rules of play. They get to decide with their wallet on what to watch.
The group of people in the Smash community who are spectators and not players (a group I just call "spectators") have absolutely had a negative influence. Not on the scene, but on the community. I feel this is self-evident, but if you insist on me being more specific I'll follow up. Forgive me, it's late and I have a very early morning.

Saying the lifeblood is the players is giving too much of a stake to them. Sure with no players there is no game, but with no TO's there are no tournaments, and with no viewers there would be no incentive to stream and share.
The scene would grow without viewers. Just not as quickly. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, since a large influx of newbies who aren't well-versed in the culture and social code can have long-term, even permanent effects on the community. For more information on this topic, do some research on the "Eternal September" phenomenon.

I'll agree that TOs are very important, yet not nearly as much as players. You can still have clusters of players that gather at a community center or somebody's house, who play to push the game and characters to their limits. It's far from ideal, but it can work if nothing else will. I'm personally not a TO, but if my local TO decides to hang up his hat and not nominate a successor I'll be glad to try and keep the scene alive. People that organize gatherings of players are inevitable. It's how you can tell there's a scene in the first place.
 

BigShad

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
494
Location
River City High
3DS FC
0602-6501-8253
In all honesty, I think everything should always bend to what the majority of the players want. They're by far the biggest cog in the machine, no matter what fighting game.
 

Pippin (Peregrin Took)

Formerly “ItalianBaptist”
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
949
Switch FC
SW-0542-4021-7641
So here's the question, if we want to be recognized as a legitimate esport: how do other sports, e or otherwise, cater to all of these different groups?

Probably the biggest thing I've noticed is that I don't recall top nfl players tweeting (read:whining?) about the rules being unfair (though said players make headlines often for trying to bend said rules) the way smashers on every level have blown up this customs debate. It makes us look very unprofessional, and it's not even what we say, it's how we say it. Though truly, how tactful can we be with a 160 character limit?

Edit: I want to make myself perfectly clear, I do believe players have the right to express negative opinions about the ruleset. This isn't a dictatorship. But it seems that we've gone from healthy debate to whoever's louder and more obnoxious gets their way. I def appreciate what they tried to do with the panels at smash con for this reason. Does anyone have the transcripts for the custom debates there?
 
Last edited:

Phoenix502

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
706
Location
Chipley, FL
NNID
Phoenix502
3DS FC
4811-6967-8095
I want to make myself perfectly clear, I do believe players have the right to express negative opinions about the ruleset. This isn't a dictatorship. But it seems that we've gone from healthy debate to whoever's louder and more obnoxious gets their way. I def appreciate what they tried to do with the panels at smash con for this reason. Does anyone have the transcripts for the custom debates there?
who ran the panel, again? I've tried asking about that customs debate myself, but I've got no luck with anyone else, figure I'll ask the showrunner himself...
 

Delzethin

Character Concept Creator
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
3,966
Location
St. Louis, MO
NNID
Delzethin
There's a lot to balance...but at the same time, you don't want to give vocal minorities too much of a sway in things. For example, I've noticed a lot of viewers can be really uninformed and make knee-jerk judgments based on it. It's one of the reasons you see more defensive players get bashed so much for "playing the wrong way". Give them too much of the reins, and you end up with a metagame based around hearsay and first impressions rather than one based on informed decisions.

It's not just uninformed viewers that could tamper with things, though. Focus too much on TOs and you might end up with rulesets based more around their convenience than on what would work best for the meta. Give high level players too much power and some might be tempted to alter the rules to something they personally benefit from.

There's a lot to balance...and hopefully we can figure it out. Our first step is to stop giving vocal minorities so much sway in things.
 

Boss N

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
296
Location
Connecticut
NNID
Boss-N
3DS FC
0044-3869-2757
What's wrong with gaming? Microtransactions, DLC, day-one patches. All done for the sake of big business trying to make a quick buck. We've already seen this start to happen in Smash. APEX and EVO banned Skyloft not because it's a bad stage, but because Nintendo threw a fit about copyrights. APEX made this awful 2-stock Smash 4 meta the standard not because they thought it would be better for the community, but because they wanted Nintendo's shekels.

The group of people in the Smash community who are spectators and not players (a group I just call "spectators") have absolutely had a negative influence. Not on the scene, but on the community. I feel this is self-evident, but if you insist on me being more specific I'll follow up. Forgive me, it's late and I have a very early morning.
On your first point:
Now laws aren't my specialty, but the way I believe music in smash works is that they need permission from the original composers to get them remixed and put into the game in the first place, some of those composers aren't part of nintendo anymore, if ever, so to get their music live streamed will basically result in a very convoluted process with another company. Nintendo is just avoiding all the hassle. (And from what I can tell, people probably would've complained about sky loft being a legal stage at all so…)

Also, Nintendo hasn't done any of these money grabbing schemes you described, they've never released a half-baked game & DLC is always developed after the completed product and is always a reasonable price, nor is it ever a requirement to enjoy the full experience.


As for your first point:
That certainly is true, but out of the pool of crap there are still people who genuinely enjoy the show and will want to pick up the game, and that's how we get new players, which is how we keep the game alive. This is why we need to appeal to a larger audience cuz it garuntees constant supporters.

Now due to bullcrap internet culture toxicity is going to be inevitable, but it can be reduced, but the only feasible way is to set proper role models. The problem is that too many top players aren't acting professionally, so that becomes the standard that everyone thinks they can get away with in this scene when it shouldn't be.

But we shouldn't be afraid to grow just because there's a subset being obnoxious. Instead of letting them harass us to the point of retreating back into the underground we need to show better regulation.
 
Last edited:

Iceweasel

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
855
On your first point:

...

Also, Nintendo hasn't done any of these money grabbing schemes you described, they've never released a half-baked game & DLC is always developed after the completed product and is always a reasonable price, nor is it ever a requirement to enjoy the full experience.
I didn't say Nintendo has done that. Someone asked why I said that gaming has gone down in quality since it's become such a massive juggernaut of an industry, and I said that this has become a mojor problem with the industry as a whole. I was merely illustrating that, despite how much something may seem like a good thing at first glance, unforseen (or in this case, ignored) circumstances can render it an overall bad thing. Big business corrupted gaming, and it's been demonstrated that Smash is being affected too.

As for your first point:
That certainly is true, but out of the pool of crap there are still people who genuinely enjoy the show and will want to pick up the game, and that's how we get new players, which is how we keep the game alive. This is why we need to appeal to a larger audience cuz it garuntees constant supporters.
Smash would grow regardless, just at a much slower rate. I first heard about (and became interested in) competitive Smash by reading an article from 2010. Kappa Spam: The Website isn't the end-all, be-all for introducing new members to the community.

Now due to bullcrap internet culture toxicity is going to be inevitable, but it can be reduced, but the only feasible way is to set proper role models. The problem is that too many top players aren't acting professionally, so that becomes the standard that everyone thinks they can get away with in this scene when it shouldn't be.
But the effect of "internet toxicity" can be reduced if new members are coming in at a slow enough rate to become acclimated to the existing standards of community. If one or two people from, say, /pol/ became interested in the Smash community and decided to join, they would learn pretty quickly that saying certain things that are alright to say where they come from aren't acceptable here. But if everybody on /pol/ showed up at once, it would be a bigger problem, and would completely change the dynamics of small communities.



But we shouldn't be afraid to grow just because there's a subset being obnoxious. Instead of letting them harass us to the point of retreating back into the underground we need to show better regulation.
I'm not concerned with harassment. I've been on the Internet for way too long to start caring now. I just feel like the Smash community was doing just fine (or at least well enough) before monkeys with suits and fat wallets came in and tried to run the place. In this race to be taken seriously by the FGC and esports organizations, we may lose focus on what nakes the Smash scene so great to be a part of. If we give viewers, who only see us as cheap entertainment, a voice, then "This stage is competitively viable, but it's boring to watch someone play on" becomes a good argument for banning it (and one I've actually seen, more than once in fact). If we give a voice to businessmen, who know nothing about us except that we can be exploited for profit, we can have our ruleset dictated to us (which has already happened). We're an established community with our own culture and rules. Newbies need to understand this and adapt, not demand that we all conform to or interact with them on their terms instead of ours.



Your comments on regulation and proper role models concern me. How would this be enforced? Would you just be a **** to top players who don't fit your definition of polite? Or would players that talk a little trash get ejected from the venue and DQ'ed? Are you going to suggest that players' sponsorship contracts should have clauses to allow the contract to be terminated for dissing other members of the community? When I was talking about Eternal September, I was mostly concerned with meme-forcers like Lenny/Kappa/Press 1 spammers, MLG remixers, and Shulk players, but this suggestion could potentially have some pretty horrifying implications. Would you care to elaborate?
 
Top Bottom