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Stale moves: The exact numbers

Toomai

Smash Ace
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Actually found this out by accident when doing research on projectile hitboxes. Don't remember a similar topic being around.

When you connect with move X, it is then considered stale. Connecting with a different move increases the power of move X by one stage; there are three different stages between "stale" and "fresh".
  • Stale: 0.75x
  • Level 1: 0.82x
  • Level 2: 0.89x
  • Level 3: 0.96x
  • Fresh: 1.00x
The damage done by a move is multiplied by these factors and rounded up. Because of this:
  • Moves that deal 24% or less are basically fresh at level 3.
  • Moves that deal 9% or less are basically fresh at level 2.
  • Moves that deal 5% or less are basically fresh at level 1.
  • Moves that deal 3% or less are basically immune to staleness.
The knockback calculation ignores the staleness factor of a hitbox. It does however work on the victim's damage after the hit, so a non-fresh move will deal less knockback because it dealt less damage.

I'm having trouble testing this, but I believe the staleness of a projectile is determined on creation. This would mean that if you can fire two projectiles without either hitting, they'll both be fresh if they do connect.
 

Battlecow

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Good stuff. I didn't know that there were 3 levels before full freshness, but then again, it pretty much only applies to the Giant Punch, no? (I forget how much charge shot does lol)

Anyways, helpful ****.

I wonder why they chose .07 as the way to go. Seems... arbitrary.
 

Sempiternity

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Hm, my general rule of thumb when doing combos and stuff is to hit with other moves three times before staleness goes away. Good to see some validation.

I also didn't know that moves get immediately stale after one hit. I always thought it worked the same way as freshening up, i.e. moves become progressively more stale with each consecutive hit.
 

Battlecow

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Really you should hit two times before the staleness is gone, as a rule of thumb. Charge shot/Giant punch aren't really twice-in-four-moves types of things anyways.
 

MATTS!

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I had a calculator out the other day while I was playing online, never figured out how to subtract a Kirby from a Luigi.



The Great MATTS!
 

mixa

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The knockback calculation ignores the staleness factor of a hitbox. It does however work on the victim's damage after the hit, so a non-fresh move will deal less knockback because it dealt less damage.
So, I've been suspicious about this for a while, and I've decided to test it out to get numbers instead of impressions.

I tested out Fox's Uair (both hits) vs Pikachu on DL, middle platform.
Turns out:
With a fresh Uair, Pika dies at 93% (+15 = 108%)
With a stale Uair, Pika dies at 123% (+12 = 135%)


Which reminds me of some dialogue I heard between commentators about Fox's Uair staleness (no names though I somehow remember the exact match this was talked about).
It was something like "if you connect the first hit of the up air, the attack will become stale, but if you connect both of them, the attack won't become stale". Which is not true. Whatever hit of the Uair you connect will make the attack stale. And by attack I mean the 2nd hit, because the first has set knockback, so it's always the same.
 

The Star King

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I remember already proving that false, but I guess it was in another thread lol. Possibly Ask a Question or Things You May Not Know
 

Madao

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Stalesness only effects the damage portion of knockback, so Toomai is correct
 

Han Solo

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Yeah, that was me. I MEANT to say the first hit of the uair stales the second hit of the uair except the immediate second hit that's coming. I watched that set again a while ago, and I said to myself, "Wait, that's not right."
 

sman865

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This was cool to find out! Good thread, even if it's a 1.5 years old.

I was testing it out, and I realized that damage is halved when your opponent is laying on the ground (not sure if there's a technical term).
...I had no idea.
 

mixa

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This was cool to find out! Good thread, even if it's a 1.5 years old.

I was testing it out, and I realized that damage is halved when your opponent is laying on the ground (not sure if there's a technical term).
...I had no idea.
hm... I remember it as: the knockback is halved (reduced, not sure if halved), but the damage is the same.

oh wait, that's crouch cancel. you're right. Is the knockback the same though? I mean, after the %.
 

Madao

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Yes. Discussed in "Things You May Not Know" thread.

Except if you test with any vertical KO move, like in mixa's post, this is shown to be clearly wrong.
I was confused at first because I didn't understand how the formula worked, but after a while of debugging, I finally understand it now.

The damage of the move is part of the equation. A 15 damage attack vs a 20 damage attack, makes a significant difference in the total knockback. Really, I think it's just a misunderstanding of words. I guess that Toomai wanted to make it clear that the only difference when it comes to staleness is the damage part of the formula.

The way knockback physics work is, it calculates based on the formula in the picture. After that, you factor in angle for the X and Y knockback velocity. So you just get that number you got from doing the formula and then multiply with sin(angle) to get the Y Knockback velocity and cos(angle) to get the X knockback velocity. Then all that's left is acceleration / deceleration. So far I've paid more attention to Y velocity, since I wanted to understand the fall speed mechanics, so I don't fully know about the acceleration of X. Keep in mind there's 2 different velocities for X and Y. There's a knockback velocity and a jumping / falling velocity. When you get hit, your regular Y velocity starts at 0 and then keeps subtracting by your fall speed acceleration, until you reach your max fall speed. So every frame you add Knockback velocity to your Y coordinates and also subtract from the other Y velocity.

Here's a run down of the whole formula. I'll use Fox's Uair vs Mario as an example, and assume it's fresh. Lets say Mario has 70 damage before getting hit. First hit of Uair will do 2 damage, second hit will do 13 damage. Second hit has an angle of 90 and a knockback of 135. You plug in the 13 damage into formula and you end up with a total of 144.7875. Then for Y knockback velocity, you multiply 144.7875 with sin(90) (which happens to be 1.0). Note that everytime you get hit, your falling velocity automatically goes to 0. Now, all that's left is acceleration and deceleration. In the updating process of the Y coordinate during each frame, you add Y-Knockback velocity to the Y Coordinate, then subtract (1.7 x sin(angle)) to knockback velocity, then you subtract falling velocity by fall speed acceleration and subtract Y Coordinate with fall speed acceleration. When the character reaches max fall speed, then you stop subtracting Y velocity by fall speed acceleration.

I didn't write down the exact order when it came to adding and subtracting for acceleration and deceleration, but you get the general idea.

Now if you were to do Fox's U air vs Mario at 70 damage before getting hit while it's stale, the velocity would be 117.288 instead of 144.7875, so that would be the difference between fresh and stale.
 
Last edited:

clubbadubba

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so basically you're saying that the damage of the move effects knockback in 2 ways:

1) The total damage of the character AFTER the move occurs and

2) The damage of the move itself
 

Madao

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so basically you're saying that the damage of the move effects knockback in 2 ways:

1) The total damage of the character AFTER the move occurs and

2) The damage of the move itself
Yes. p = total damage of character after getting hit and d = damage of the last hit.
 

The Star King

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Mmmm. Interesting read.

I suppose this means that when hitting with a move on someone knocked down on the ground, the game actually takes into account the full damage, not the halved damage.

For example, Fox USmash kills Jigglypuff from the bottom of Dreamland at 52%+16% or 60%+8% (half damage from knockdown). Looks like damage only affects the "1)" of clubba's post, but not "2)". We see 8% but the game takes 16%.

It didn't work out to be at the same % that way for stale moves, so that's what I was disputing, that it was just "1)" when I knew it wasn't.

So for the X side of the spectrum, is it just adding X knockback to the X coordinate, then subtract (1.7 x cos(angle)) to knockback velocity, and until you reach 0 velocity that's it? Since falling speed isn't a factor?
 

Madao

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Edit: The X-Knockback Deceleration is actually simple. I guess me hacking the knockback value is what caused the numbers to glitch up.
The deceleration formula is X-Knockback Velocity - cos(angle). So every frame, it simply subtracts cos(angle) from the X-Knockback Velocity.

I'll break down the Y-knockback formula. I'll use kirby's first hitbox of usmash vs mario at 70 damage before getting hit.
Kirby's first hitbox for usmash does 16 damage fresh, 12 damage if stale, 90 angle, 20 base knockback, and 1.2 knockback scaling. Mario's weight is 1.0.
Fresh usmash - ( ( ( ( 86/10 + ( 16 x 86 / 20 ) x 1.0 x 1.4 ) + 18 ) x 1.2 ) + 20 ) x sin(90) = 171.632
Stale usmash - ( ( ( ( 82/10 + ( 12 x 82 / 20 ) x 1.0 x 1.4 ) + 18 ) x 1.2 ) + 20 ) x sin(90) = 138.032

Turns out that the formula is different if you hit mario while he's laying down. I did 6 damage while stale and 8 while fresh.
I guess it uses the regular damage numbers.
Fresh usmash - ( ( ( ( 78/10 + ( 16 x 78 / 20 ) x 1.0 x 1.4 ) + 18 ) x 1.2 ) + 20 ) x sin(90) = 159.536
Stale usmash - ( ( ( ( 76/10 + ( 12 x 76 / 20 ) x 1.0 x 1.4 ) + 18 ) x 1.2 ) + 20 ) x sin(90) = 130.976
 
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