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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 19 - Meta Knight - Batpuff & Breadwing

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Welcome to the Meta Knight matchup discussion.

Falco and Meta Knight.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4metaknight:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|7-7, 11-11, 15-15, 20-20, 24-24, (infinite), 30-30
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|7-11
Ftilt|6-8|6-6, 12-12, 19-19
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-10 or 8-14 or 11-14
Dtilt|7-9|3-4
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|24-24
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|8-8, 12-12, 17-17
Down Smash|7-9|4-4, 9-9
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-7 or 8-20
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|9-9, 12-12, 15-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-8, 13-14, 20-21
Uair|7-11|6-6
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|4-4
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10
 
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ItoI6

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
383
Location
Oakland, Cali
mk can hover just below the ledge offstage and tornado falcos side b just like brawl if he gets too predictable. besides that i cant actually think of anything matchup specific but if someone wants to play just shoot me a pm.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
mk can hover just below the ledge offstage and tornado falcos side b just like brawl if he gets too predictable. besides that i cant actually think of anything matchup specific but if someone wants to play just shoot me a pm.
As mentioned in the OP, we have a thread you can use to spar with Falco players. Also, we should take in consideration of customs like if a Falco is running Falco Phase instead of Phantasm, Falco can just dash past Meta Knight if I'm understanding correctly.
 

SoundChow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
86
Location
PA
I don't play this matchup too frequently because I hardly ever win it. From my experiences with Bonk, he's all about getting dash attacks, which follows up into up-air and at later percents, shuttle loop. It's also hard to punish his dash attack because it goes through your shield, but you could challenge it with f-smash. His grab game is pretty good, I know that his down throw leads into up-smash and fair, and his back throw can kill. Be careful with dropping shield because his mach tornado is fast and can do over 20% (though has bad ending lag and weak priority).

It's hard to play against MK because his hurtbox is so small. Bair out of shield and short-hop up-air are difficult to land on MK, and it's not a good idea to challenge MK's dair and u-air which are lagless (bair has significant end lag though but can kill, fair has not as much lag). MK is very fast and can apply a lot of pressure with dash attack and dash grab, so Falco's laser won't be very effective. What Falco has are better kill options and juggling ability. Challenge MK's approaches with f-smash and d-tilt (most often dash attack). Fighting MK in the air is significantly better for Falco, where he can rack up percent with fair and kill with bair. With all this said, I think that this is one of Falco's worse matchups and I'd say it's a 35-65.
 
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warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
I think Falco should be playing like Kirby when facing MK, using their good normals and bairs to tack on damage and wall MK out.

Unlike Kirby, you guys got better damage, better follow ups from throws, kill throw, disjoints and a strong mid range tool. I say like Kirby because Falco has horrible mobility compared to MK and poor disadvantage state his nair despite being disjointed doesn't hit MK when he's throwing Uairs under him.

In neutral i say Falco has the slight edge with his solid normals and sh aerials, problem is that you must commit to each bair due to MKs height. MK has 3 approach options: dash attack, dash grab and landing on you with tornado.

MK can convert a once neutral state to an advantage one so easily because alot of his moves are hit confirms/kill setups. Tornado reliably beats Falco's side b so you must commit hard to snapping the ledge or else you'll get staged spiked, Off stage Drill Rush outranges all his aerials and stage spikes.

Falco can kill MK at ridiculous percents near the ledge, but MK can legit kill Falco with a kill setup starting at 99%.

Don't take MK to battlefield he can live longer and shark Falco hard on platforms using uair and if you sit in shield too long he'll use tornado, i think low ceilings are good because you guys got up throw into uair but MK absolutely wrecks anyone that isn't Diddy on his home turf: Helberd.

60:40 :4metaknight: favor, MU is similar to Kirby imo but you guys got range and a few disjoints on your side. But you lack the ability to pressure MK off stage like Kirby does and your disadvantage state is pretty bad, Falco is combo food for MK due to his absurd fall speed. My vote will change depending on what others say, its without a doubt in MKs favor though.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Meta Knight has a Uair string to Shuttle Loop that will kill you if done correctly and considering Falco's air speed and fall speed, Meta Knight can and will take advantage of that. Falco might want to stay grounded since Meta Knight's aerials hit fast and his Bair from what I remember was described as having the same power as Triple D's, but with less range and less start up.

RAR Bair will work for Meta Knight, but not for Falco unless he can catch Meta Knight in the air. This MU is like Palutena's who also has an impressive air game and can juggle Falco for days.

Anyway, a thing to note: Falco can clank Meta Knight's Drill Rush and "easily" with his Rapid Jab. I say "easily" since it'd be stupid to spam Drill Rush.
 
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Joined
Oct 27, 2013
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226
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Illinois
NNID
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I feel like you guys have said what I wanted to say already, so yeah. MK has kill setups off a lot of things, he's short, has a lot of recovery options, various tools to deal with predictable recoveries, and he's quick. Falco gets juggled easily by this kind of character, so I think we need to consider stages like FD and Smashville versus MK. What other stages are beneficial to us in this matchup? We should avoid stages with low ceilings like Delfino and Halberd, and it has already been mentioned how Battlefield is MK's probable best stage.
 

Katakiri

LV 20
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Dec 20, 2007
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967
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Katakiri
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Due to MK's mobility and solid ground- and air-game, it's typically best for a character to go to their best stage rather than attempt to counter-pick MK. He loves platforms and semi-solid floors like Kongo Jungle's, he KOs mostly off the top with Up-B or Up-Smash so low ceilings help him, and he isn't hindered by bad ledges like Lylat's.

As for potential bans & striking,
  • Smashville is actually MK's best stage in almost any MU. MK can camp the platform very well with his fantastic roll and frame 4 D-Air OoS. If Falco has momentum, MK steals it back just by landing on the platform and camping until he has an opportunity to strike.
  • Battlefield is almost always great from MK since landing on a platform against MK puts any character in a very bad spot.
  • Town & City isn't bad for MK either since he mostly KOs off the top so the lower ceiling is nice and he can still abuse the platforms just like Smashville, but Smashville's platform is more ideal.
  • MK doesn't mind Lylat since it still gives him platforms to work with but the stage tilt can mess up his combos occasionally.
  • FD/Omega is by far MK's worst stage on the entire stage roster since MK works with platforms so well that taking that option away hinders him greatly. However, I don't think there's a stage Falco's great enough on to warrant MK using his strikes/ban on anything other than FD/Omega so it's very unlikely you'll be able to go there.

Counterpick stages are where it gets hard to ban against MK since he likes a lot of stages.
  • Kongo Jungle 64 is my personal favorite stage. I believe the only person that's beat me there was Boss and it was still very close at that. MK has very strong Smash Attacks so he can KO quickly even with the distant blast-zones and he has great mobility so the stage is a playground for MK. The dip in the stage invalidates most projectiles as well. Up-Air sharking and Dimensional Caping through the stage give MK some nasty ledge options as well. MK's best stage imo.
  • Halberd is a mixed bag against certain characters that can KO off the top better than MK, but Falco isn't one of them. MKs will probably want to take you here for the platform sharking and low ceiling.
  • Duck Hunt is pretty good for MK even with the high ceiling. The close blast-zones make MK's B-Air gimping and Smash Attacks even more deadly and the tree coupled with MK's frame 4 D-Air OoS gives MK a solid camping game. Landing in the tree when MK is underneath you is kind of a death sentence as well.
  • Delfino is a "meh" stage for MK. The transition platform is very good for MK for the same reasons Kongo Jungle is but pretty much every other location is awful for MK. The islands, pier, umbrellas, stairs, and plaza are all just as bad as FD and the shine gate, rooftop, & pillars ruin MK's combo game. He can still play there just fine since the transitions interrupt the other characters too but I wouldn't bother banning this stage because only MK players fresh off of Brawl are going to think this stage is good for him. This is MK's worst stage next to FD only because half the time it's like Kongo Jungle, the other half is bad for MK.
  • While not a bad as Delfino, Castle Siege won't be a common choice for MK. Each transformation has its upsides and downsides for MK. The rooftop is a lot like Lylat Cruise so not too in the way, the interior is great for camping platforms but MK can't gimp since there is no off-stage, and the underground is just Omega Lylat Cruise which is MK's worst stage anyway.
  • Skyloft on the other hand is decent for MK. Unlike Delfino, most transformations have platforms and he can even shark underneath a few.

So against MK, it would be wise to strike Battlefield and Smashville. Your bans would be Kongo Jungle and Halberd.
 

AmishTechnology

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
374
NNID
KIMPHIE
It seems like some of you birds are showing too much respect/fear of MK's air game.

If a competent MK is beginning to use short hop fairs, bairs, or nairs on you, he's showing you no respect. The range on those are quite bad, and the ending lag is bad too. Short hop fair, bair, and nair all do not auto cancel and are very punishable upon landing. I think Falco can stuff all of these options out with good ftilts or RAR bairs, or simply wait and punish them.

MK can do the Brawl-esque d-air camp on Falco a lot better than on most of the cast because Falco doesn't have broken OoS options or overpowered range/disjoints/tilts. However, the horizontal reach on it is quite awful and should be quite easy to see coming. At the very worst, you should shield them and he'll jump away (actually, he could feint a d-air if you're too conditioned and just fast fall -> grab you aka tomahawk). If he's being cheeky with the short hop d-air/aerial d-air camping, I think a good tilt or bair will beat that too. Aerial MK is much easier to bair than a grounded MK.

Often, the way a high-tier character with a good neutral beats our bread n' butter dash attack/dash grab approaches is either by walling us off with aerials (C Falcon bairs, Sheik fairs), jabs (nonsense jabs like Lil Mac, Captain Falcon, ZSS), or just being better than us at our own game (C Falcon dash attack/dash grab lol on top of the rest of the aforementioned). Actually, Meta Knight is at his peak when his enemy approaches him and he's able to bait and punish their mistakes. Falco is similar because Falco's own approaches are meh... but his ability to force approaches is alright against most of the cast because LASERS (despite how nerfed they are). I don't know how Falco's jabs interact with MK's dash attack, but I'd imagine that to be a huge part of the MU. Otherwise, it honestly seems like dtilt, ftilt, RAR bairs (really precisely timed to hit him grounded, can be sloppy against aerial MK) will be your BnB here, because I feel like that's just Falco's general walling off options against most of the cast (+ jabs and the seldom reflector for short hop approaches). Falco dtilt should clank or outrange any of MK's stuff except for aerials (and remember, MK short hop approaches are bad!), ftilt should outrange anything from MK and seems to be superbly safe when spaced properly and not whiffed or power shielded, and RAR bair should beat his aerials and even grounded if he's greedy.

The really sucky thing is that one of Falco's coolest and most powerful assets, his off-stage game, is ridiculously risky in this MU because... Meta Knight. If you go really deep to edge guard Meta Knight and he air dodges you... expect a counter b-air or d-air from him because lol 5 mid-air jumps. He will almost certainly never get hit by your d-air (almost no one does, curse Falco d-air nerfs...), a quick drop -> bair may catch some MKs off-guard if they're recovering low, fair seems too telegraphed to hit any MKs imo. You can't really scare him when he has so many jumps and very extreme recovery means via shuttle loop or drill. Oh, and be aware that Drill can STAGE SPIKE you! It spikes you towards whatever angle he is directing it. But if he does a very obvious one, that may be your cue to actually use dair lol.

MK edgeguarding against Falco goes like this. If you keep using phantasm to go on-stage, he'll just prime Tornado or, if you're REALLY too predictable, spaced F-Smash it. If you use it to grab the ledge, that should be safe most of the time. If you're too obvious, he may just Tornado the edge of the stage instead. So phantasm recovering becomes this weird 50/50 thing sometimes if MK is in range to tornado either the ledge or the stage instead of just the stage. If you're recovering low and do an obvious Fire Falco (e.g. you foolishly wasted your double jump and are still low for whatever reason), he can melee shine spike you with his d-air on your windup and possibly even during flight lol. Or meet you with a bair, which is also really bad to eat while recovering. If you've grabbed ledge, his optimal punishes are to use shuttle loop if you ledge jump, otherwise a tornado, spaced f-smash, or grab (or lol dash attack because MK) to meet your roll/getup/attack options. But that all happens really fast, don't be predictable and it shouldn't be too bad. He can YOLO Drill you too on last-stock or unfair stock trade situations with either the spike or knockback similar to Ganon side-b suicide.

Sorry for theorycrafting so much, I main MK and play Falco quite a bit but I've never Falco vs MK and very rarely play MK vs Falco. The only Falco who has beat me soundly only played once before leaving. He utilized Perfect Pivot Jabs very often and extremely elegantly, which is why I felt that his Jab is a decent-good option against MK's approaches. When I play Falco myself, I feel his dtilt and ftilt are great stuffing and enemy-halting options, and RAR bair is such a good option against characters with GOOD aerial approaches like Jigglypuff, so I see absolutely no reason you can't contest MK's cruddy air-to-ground game with it as well. Force MK to approach you through whatever means. MK making you approach is what he wants you to do, and even a top tier approaching MK isn't fun for the top tier (well, except for Diddy). Falco himself doesn't have the greatest approaching tools :\.
 

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
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Gamegenie222
3DS FC
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I haven't played many MK's in this game yet as for the ones I did play it was run of the mill ones or actual good ones but I can see some advantage MK have over Falco in this MU. I would love to play one of you MK players and grind to figure it out cause I always been curious bout this character?
 

warionumbah2

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,077
Location
Playing KOF XIV
Just dropping this here, F-Smashing near the ledge wrecks Falco.

  • The tip of the hitbox goes at a low angle so even if you aim for the ledge sometimes it will clip you so long as the F-Smash is well spaced and timed
  • You cannot afford to miss the ledge nor recover low
  • It has very low end lag so MK will come out unpunished
  • Because of the low end lag even if you go above, MK can punish you
  • 60% = Death regardless of DI
  • Very easy to time with practice
 
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