Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 18 - Marth - Ace & King

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Marth matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Marth's Frame Data by @Locuan and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|5-7, 20-22
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|13-16
Ftilt|6-8|8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|6-12 or 9-12
Dtilt|7-9|7-8
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|10-13
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|13-14 or 13-17
Down Smash|7-9|6-7 or 21-23
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-7, 15-21
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-11
Uair|7-11|5-9
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|9-13 or 11-11
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I honestly want to say this is a 60-40 MU, Marth can be a wall of pain when he gets to the sweet spot mid range he wants to be.

Marth does have good air game but it's flawed, he can't move as quickly as he used to at short hop height, he can beat just about anything Falco throws at him with decent spacing. I think a sturdy fair should win in most situations
Marth has approach options, but as a Falco player, you want him to feel confident in approach, so Falco can make a quick defensive move and bair you in the face. It should play right into how you want in neutral game usually. If you stay defensive. If anything I would expect the Marth to play slowly and focus mostly on spacing correctly to get Falco off-stage quickly with ftilts and fairs, where he can attempt the gimp. Which honestly isn't too hard, he can out-space him easily. I expect Falco to try staying back, while throwing out a couple lasers and possibly the shine if the Marth gets too aggressive and punishing when Marth extends too far.

It's all about learning how to punish as efficiently as possible and reading what the Marth will do when he does eventually over-extend. Be that a shield grab or spot dodge or just about anything else a Marth has options for when playing defensively. You have to mix up your punishes and get creative on your approach, it's much harder without lasers to open up ahead of you, so you have to know when and when not to try rushing in.

tl;dr
Spacing is really important in this match-up. Don't get hit.

 

[SoundChow]

A great option for getting away from marth is short-hop phantasm which leads into bair and u-air. He wants to pressure you at close-mid range with his aerials, never challenge them. Stick with ground based options like laser on landing, shield grab, and short-hop phantasm. If you manage to get close to him, going for d-tilt and and u-tilt will set you up for more juggle opportunities. Play patiently, read his airdodges/counters, and keep yourself in shield more often than spot dodge because of his dancing blade. I still see this as a 50-50 matchup, though keep in mind I've only played this MU extensively with one good marth player.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm going to drop this here as well, @ SoundChow .

Personally, I think the Falco-Marth matchup is 50-50. I play Bonk a lot who mains Marth, and I think the matchup basically comes down on getting reads.

For starters, Marth has two grab follow-ups. Forward-throw to f-air, and down-throw to tipper u-air/b-air at low percents. These aren't true combos depending on rage and DI, so it's possible for Falco to airdodge before the follow-up. If Marth reads the airdodge, he can get a charged jc-upsmash so you have to be careful (jump out if you have time). Be patient when juggling Marth in the air, do a full hop, wait a little bit to see if they'll airdodge/counter, and then use your second hop to bair him.

In neutral you'll see him use dancing blade (on the ground or from a short-hop), which you'll have to shield (get in the habit of using shield more than spot-dodge because dancing blade is a safe poke). Be careful with spamming shield because of shieldbreaker, but keep in mind that you can powershield it and that it's almost always used when Marth's coming down from the air. Marth has a higher priority/range aerial game because of his sword, but keep in mind that all of his aerials have decent endlag (except nair).

What Falco has in this matchup are better damage-dealing combos (up-throw to u-air/bair, down-throw to nair/bair), faster frame data (safe jab, quick aerials), laser pressure, and a slightly better edgeguarding game. I'd say that they have even ledge trumps. To win this matchup, don't challenge Marth's aerials in neutral. If he plays a good spacing game, short hop u-air is unsafe to throw out randomly. Play paciently with lasers, get grabs and follow-up with aerials, bait out airdodges/counter, and make your gameplay more ground-based in neutral. This is the extent of my matchup knowledge, but I hope you guys find it useful.

One thing to remember when fighting Marth, Lucina, and Kirby with the Final Cutter custom, Upper Cutter?, is that they can and will ledge spike you fast and hard with Dolphin Slash. With customs, Crescent Slash becomes an option out of a grab, I think. Just fear the Up Special.

Falco's upper hand here is having strong and consistent hits sort of like Lucina, but a bit more like Ike. If read correctly, however, Falco's strength becomes his weakness against Counter which might not come out a lot in high level play, but it's something to be aware.

Both can spike each other, but I think Falco's lingers a bit sooner and is stronger since Marth's the frame 11 hit, right? The difference is that Marth can counter it more easily if he knows with Uair, Dolphin Slash, Counter, etc. while Falco will have a harder time, especially if he's caught charging (Distant) Fire Bird too close to the ledge that Marth can easily get back on.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Sounds about right and I play both characters on top of that.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Falco's got strong attacks, but range is an issue since Marth needs to be at a specific distance from Falco to maximize damage output. On top of that, Marth's aerials are slow so he'll be playing a safe game.

Of course, we'll do the same. Marth's tools up-close include his side-B, a scary Shield Breaker that can be intimidating if you don't know what to do, and a fast f-smash. However, this is one of those times where it's a real good thing we have lasers because we can force Marth to approach, and punishing is where Falco shines. Given you only have so many options to approach, we can watch how Marth approaches and develop appropriate countermeasures to it. Say, jab if you know he'll go for dash-grab (though ftilt might be better.)

This is seriously a match of reads, but I think that it's 55-45 Falco right now because Falco has tools to kill and not too much issue in killing, whereas Marth needs to make real good reads to get his kill from tipper fsmash, or he'll need to rack up damage which isn't beneficial due to rage.

 

[Ffamran]

Sounds about right and I play both characters on top of that.

Anything you'd like to add? It be great if we can get your analysis.

Edit: I forgot to mention this: Marth's rage U-throw is hella dangerous.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Nothing that I can think of ATM. The others pretty much covered it though I see it 50-50 MU and I only got a chance to play the MU once.

 

[Ffamran]

Nothing that I can think of ATM. The others pretty much covered it though I see it 50-50 MU and I only got a chance to play the MU once.

I think you can ask here to spar Marth and Lucina: http://smashboards.com/threads/power-of-anris-legacy-marcina-sparring-thread.392682/.

Maybe the general discussion is a better place for that: http://smashboards.com/threads/seizon-senryaku-marth-general.366765/unread.

 

[kj22]

http://www.twitch.tv/dairtoshine/b/637013926 31:35 KJ vs Dao (marth vs falco)
good falco vs good marth, prolly the highest level of marth vs falco you'll see (and even then we each made lots of mistakes)

 

[roymustang1990-]

and keep yourself in shield more often than spot dodge because of his dancing blade.though keep in mind I've only played this MU extensively with one good marth player.

Staying in your shield more often is a bad idea,since marth can pop it in one hit if tippered unless you perfect shield it,and spot dodging isn't much better if the marth is willing to keep charging it waiting for your spot dodge frames to end. Best thing you can do is give up space and roll away.

And yeah I know you said you only played with one good marth.