Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 05 - Fox - Pretty Smooth Flying, Fox

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Fox matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Lylat Datalink - Fox Guide and Information Thread by @Zelkam and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2, 7-8, (link), (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|4-7 or 8-15
Ftilt|6-8|6-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|3-5 or 6-7
Dtilt|7-9|7-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-15 or 16-18
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|8-9 or 10-11
Down Smash|7-9|6-7
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|4-6 or 7-25
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27, 32-33
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11
Uair|7-11|9-10, 12-13
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-23
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Are these how many frames the animation is active?
How many frames the hitboxes are active?

 

[Foster J.]

Are these how many frames the animation is active?
How many frames the hitboxes are active?

This is more of a list how fast the move comes out it seems.
http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

Well, Fox is faster than Falco, and his Nair's active hitboxes are quite good at gimping, or any other sorts of off stage play.

In general, as Fox is lighter than Falco, and has a faster falling speed and lower jump height together with out Fox can land with Nair, makes it a slightly tough matchup for Falco if you ask me, so Falco might be prone to being juggled if you don't space yourself.

However, as light as Fox is, and how Falco's moves are pretty okay in killing, Fox can be killed by a rage Dash Attack at high precents, unlike how Fox can't do that against Falco, but would have to rely on a follow up.

Falco also posses the Dair frame cancel AT, which will allow for better killing options against Fox if it should land, as you can follow it up into most Smashes, or a Dtilt, which will also kill at high %.

Falco is slower than Fox, but jumps higher, and his Bair is generally safe to use if he were to catch Fox in the Air, a sweet spotted Bair would probably KO Fox around 70.

So I think Falco takes a defensive approach to this MU, your lasers will stun him if he comes running, Uair also hits behind you and is a great way to throw Fox in the air, though always be mindful of his Nair, and missing a tech at high % will likely lead to your death as Falco.

I'd put this 55-45 to Fox, he might be able to run Falco down, but if Falco gets the punishes right it will likely turn the tide. - Better luck next time Falco

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

I actually play Fox as a counterpick to another Falco main I know.

Basically, you're going to need to be on your toes the whole fight. Fox is fast, has better mobility, and a better combo ability than Falco. He could easily run in and rack up damage before running back out. However, Fox is fragile too. If Falco lands a solid blow on Fox it hurts more than vice versa. So this is a patient game for Falco players, I'd expect.

However, ironically I only know the matchup from Fox's viewpoint. Anyone care to chime in on Falco's view?

 

[Timbers]

Falco's jab makes me hella salty in this MU

 

[Ffamran]

Well, I fixed the frame data a bit, but the issue is that I don't really know Fox's frame data and they don't have a frame data thread over there. I had to rely on this: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

Anyway, I don't really know how to play Fox well in SSB4, but I have fought a couple of Foxes. Fox will rack up damage fast, so he'd be like a DPS class in a RPG while Falco will do more damage and/or knockback per hit, so he'd be the warrior class. Fox needs to keep pressure on Falco or risk a Falco in rage finding an opening and landing a Bair, Dtilt, Up Smash, Side Smash, etc.

Falco's Fair will out-prioritize Fox's Fair, but Fox's Fair will come out much sooner. Here's the thing, whenever I get launched by a Fox and they don't catch up to me in time and I see them starting or feeling like they will use Fair, I start mine immediately and fastfall into Fox. Falco's Nair is faster than Fox's Nair for some reason.

Clashing becomes silly because their Jabs, Ftilts, and Dtilts all come out at the same time. So, either of them could keep clashing or Falco could pull a Utilt when Fox tries a Ftilt or Fox with his Utilt when Falco tries a Dtilt. I think Falco's Ftilt covers more range since he kicks straight forward almost like a front kick or a weird roundhouse while Fox does a regular roundhouse. Also neither of them should prolong their rapid jabs since it will lead to the other shielding and punishing.

Fox's Dash Attack is incredible. It's fast and I believe it combos into stuff like Fair. In general, Fox can combo off of F-throw to Fair. That's the only grab combo I know Fox has unfortunately, but it's pretty good because of his grab speed. Falco's grab game, however, is more varied since he can F-throw to Phantasm, D-throw to Dash Attack, Up Smash, Utilt, Nair, Fair, whatever, or U-throw to Uair, Nair, Fair, and Bair. I bet that Fox can do the same thing; Fox can probably pull off the U-throw to Uair.

Falco will usually aim for horizontal and vertical kills while Fox is more vertical. Falco can also meteor Fox while Fox can't without customs - Wolf Flash. So, this is one of those situations where Fox should try to not recover low a lot since a Falco could catch and and follow to Dair Fox while he's charging Fire Fox - it's one of Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's weaknesses against Falco as well. Also, the Falco Phantasm trick of running off and Phantasming back might be an issue for Fox if he keeps recovering predictably.

Both should avoid being under the other, especially Falco whose horizontal air speed is horrible. Both of them can juggle the other with their Uairs or combo off of their Fairs and Nairs. That said, Fox can reduce this issue with his Dair more reliably than Falco can Dair meteor back Fox to the stage or to the blast zone if Fox gets too greedy.

Both of their Bairs and Down Smashes are good, but I think Falco's are much stronger along with the other having a faster one over the other; Falco's Bair is faster while Fox's Down Smash is faster. If Falco ledge trumps Fox, then expect a Bair which will likely kill and fast, so Fox should avoid getting ledge trumped - Ganondorf and Captain Falcon can do this as well. Fox can probably do the same... So, don't get ledge trumped. Falco's Bair is essentially a pseudo-sex kick and basically, Wolf's Bair. Fox's Bair will kill, but I don't see it often for some reason.

Fox can use Blaster to chip damage, but don't stand there since Falco will either walk up and punish or shoot his Blaster to interrupt Fox's shenanigans. I don't really know what Fox can do with his Reflector in this MU other then stall his fall since Falco probably won't be using his Blaster a lot. Falco's Blaster at least remains a good spacing tool.

I feel like this is one of the more even fights between the two because they have similar frame data, similar builds - height/weight -, and range, but they polarize each other by Fox being the speedster while Falco the brawler.

That's all I got for now. I feel the most comfortable fighting Fox as Falco and it makes sense since it's like Mario vs. Dr. Mario or Luigi or in terms of Street Fighter, Ryu vs. Ken.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

This is a pretty tense match-up for both sides.

I feel like my guy Lombardi has the upper hand, better air game, along with his lasers actually having a slight bit of use as well.
Even so, Fox is so fast, Falco has to be a bit passive, he punishes the player for trying to push him too far.
I want to say 50-50 or 45-55 Falco on the low end, being able to jump around and having space is a playground for Falco to annoy the heck out of you and make you slip up.

I think it comes down to reads, and being able to punish effectively more than anything else, it's a game of cat and mouse.

 

[Zionaze]

just a reminder. on FD, smashville flat stages, if fox starts the game with grounded lazers or grounded reflector you can sh phantasm right into foxes face and jab or grab. you recover fast enough to not get punished.

 

[gameplayzero]

I love this match up as well as fighting captain falcons. Since fox is a fast faller there is some serious combo potential that can happen from up tilts and such. Obviously he out speeds us so ground combat is in his favor, but once we take to the skies we clearly have the advantage. Since fox's recovery is predictable like ours once they are below the stage its rather easy to gimp them with a stage spike or a dair. Just don't go directly above fox since thats kill opportunity for him and his bair is strong as well. I'd still say its in fox's favor though, but very slightly.


I can't give a general strategy since I haven't fought any "great" fox players yet so take this with a grain of salt, but I would definitely say just mainly do what you normally do against rush down characters. Safe pokes, smart baits, and space properly. Not that useful I know, but I plan on fighting some people on smash boards to help further our match up discussions.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Just to let you guys know, I play Fox as a secondary and did pretty well against a fellow Falco main who, in my opinion, plays a better Falco than I do. Won some, lost some. If you want to explore the matchup you can hit me up, or I don't know maybe hit up the Fox board.

I want to point out, by the way, that this matchup is heavily dependent on reading the opponent, and bad moves from Fox will get him killed. This isn't an easy matchup for either side, because Falco has to deal with Fox's constant pressure and overbearing presence. I'd say 55-45 Fox on stages with closer blast zones, 50-50 on stages with large blast zones.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox's Dash Attack is incredible. It's fast and I believe it combos into stuff like Fair. In general, Fox can combo off of F-throw* to Fair. That's the only grab combo I know Fox has unfortunately, but it's pretty good because of his grab speed. Falco's grab game, however, is more varied since he can F-throw to Phantasm, D-throw to Dash Attack, Up Smash, Utilt, Nair, Fair, whatever, or U-throw to Uair, Nair, Fair, and Bair. I bet that Fox can do the same thing; Fox can probably pull off the U-throw to Uair.

*D-throw combos into F-air.

F-throw is still one of Fox's useful throws though. It's fast, has decent knockback to push offstage, and can be used to DI trap opponents expecting a D-throw because of it's low trajectory.

I agree with everything else you said. I think this MU is 50:50, perhaps slightly in Fox's favour.
Falco has the tools to stop Fox, but Fox can also zip circles around Falco if he fails to stop him.

And yes, Fox can ledge-trump to B-air, though the timing is much stricter since the hitbox comes out a tad slower and doesn't linger. In fact, when playing as Fox, I find it easier to just go back onstage after a ledgetrump, and wait for Falco to make it back onstage: edge invincibility is gone this way, and since Falco's horizontal air speed is bad, he'll either eat a D-smash or get his option back onstage punished.

 

[Zionaze]

The only thing I'm salty about is that Fox has his F-air spike but Falco lost his.... WHY??

 

[Foster J.]

The only thing I'm salty about is that Fox has his F-air spike but Falco lost his.... WHY??

Cause Falco's Fair's will launch you somewhat diagonally and can KO and you have to fast fall out of the remaining hits as it's only the 2nd hit that spikes

 

[Ffamran]

With Falco and Fox being able to pull of Fire Slides and Fire Rolls and customs in general like Falco's Reflector Void, Burst Blaster, Explosive Blaster or Fox's Impact Blaster, Charge Blaster, Wolf Flash, and Twisting Fox, how would the matchup work with customs?

For reference on Fire Sliding with Fast Fire Bird done by Lavani.

And Fox's "Fire" Slide with Flying Fox.

 

[Foster J.]

Frame perfect.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame perfect.

It's more of angle perfect, especially on the ground while the aerial one I think is just short hop and side Fast Fire Bird/Flying Fox (at the right height).

Edit: I don't remember mentioning this in the past, but both of them should be wary of run off aerials: Fox can get Fair, Dair, Bair ledge spiked, Falco Phantasm spiked, and maybe Nair gimped while Falco can get Fair spiked, Nair gimped, Bair ledge spiked, maybe Dair gimped.

 

[The Elephant]

I feel like Fox has hella time getting back on stage. Falco gimps him pretty hard. A laser and Dair later and it's game over for Fox

 

[BlueBirdE]

You can pull some early damage at 0 with uthrow uptilts. Between 10 aand 20 you can net a a full hop uair to bair. Around 80-90 uthrow uair can kill fox off the top. All without rage. Falco has the superior grab follow ups and boxing game but foxs speed is the biggest problem. Hard to catch him and he can literally run past you avoiding your hits so i definitely prefer to have a solid defense and use my jump height to my advantage and try not to stay in one place. Lasers are great to stop momentum but careful with spacing since foxs speed can cover great a distance .Off stage falcos fair can trade with fox fire and send fox straight down i use that to catch my opponent off guard. Ill lab this mu and see what else i can find but i feel its in foxs favor.