Source Gaming: Clone Characters in Smash Bros.: Truths and Misconceptions

[LiteralGrill]

Source Gaming is constantly finding awesome information on Smash and providing translations for all to enjoy. Previously they have discussed how Alph was once a full blown clone of Olimar and they have returned to discuss clones once again. In a first time article from Frostwraith the truth behind why clones where added and what lead to their inclusion are discussed. A preview is included below:

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Hello, everyone! I am Frostwraith, and this is my first article for Source Gaming. I’ve been a big Smash Bros. fan since I got Melee in my childhood and it helped introduce me to several Nintendo games. I’m also an active member of Smashboards. Having interest in game design, programming and the Smash series itself, my articles will focus on the design choices made on different aspects of the Smash Bros. series.

Notes: This article has content based on the author’s opinion that shouldn’t be taken as fact. Translations in this article were done by PushDustIn, Soma and Masked Man. The original Japanese quotes are provided in the footnotes.

A common fighting game term is “clone character.” Clone characters are characters whose movesets either totally or mostly derive from another existing character. As a result, this is one of the most hotly debated subjects among theSmash Bros. fanbase. Often regarded as “wastes of roster slots,” “laziness,” or “uncreative” by many fans, clones have nevertheless always been a part of the franchise from the very beginning.

Amid the criticism and controversy over the addition of clone characters inSuper Smash Bros. Melee and Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U, a lot of misconceptions have arisen about them. As a result, I hope to aim to shed light on the circumstances that led to the addition of such characters.

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[True Blue Warrior]

I have no real problem with semi-clone characters in of themselves and prefer them over straight-up clones, considering how they tend to take much less development time than non-clone characters whilst providing a more distinct flavour than straight-up clones (regardless, Lucina, Dr. Mario and Dark Pit were never going to be more different than they were)

(It's kinda a shame Alph couln't get promoted like Lucina, Dark Pit and the Doc.)

 

[U-Throw]

Sakurai adds clones to make fans happy, and fans turn around and bite him because they want the clones to be carbon copies as Alts., which, in turn, reduces the amount of content in the game.

Funny how that works.

 

[ChikoLad]

It pretty much boils down to whether or not the clones actually offer something different and feel different to the originals, that's what defines whether or not I am OK with them.

How Dark Pit and Lucina were handled was inexcusable and they definitely could have been handled a bit better, especially in light of DLC being a thing this time around. Lucina in particular is redundant as a "beginner's Marth" since she is unlockable, while Marth is available on boot up. One of Lucina's unlock methods in both version involves using Marth too. It's no different to how Sonic Runners expects you to grind (or use real money) to unlock Silver, Cream, and Big, who are gimped "Easy Mode" characters for beginners, whom otherwise play the same as the other characters in their classes. I'm not OK with it in Sonic Runners, I'm not OK with in Smash.

And then Dark Pit, well, has only small differences in like, 3 moves. They didn't even attempt to hide it like they did with Lucina, he literally has no niche.

Dr. Mario I can admit is more different, but it's not for the better, he is flat out worse than Mario overall. And I still don't think there is a reason to shoe horn a duplicate of a character we already have for no reason (in the sense that Mario and Dr. Mario are the same person), especially if it's just a gimped version. Sheik and ZSS are fine since they at least play completely differently, look completely different, and they only have their own slots this time because the transformation mechanic was axed.

As far as clones go, I feel like they should be more akin to Toon Link.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

huh, Sakurai considers Jigglypuff a clone of Kirby from the context of Smash 64. I never would have thought that now since the two characters are so amazingly different from Melee onward.

I also found it interesting that there was a reason for clones to have their own section of the roster in Smash 4. "Respecting the individuality of the roster". It wasn't like that in previous games.

Finally, the concept of Luigification. With Smash 4 being the first game in the series to receive regular updates, could they not work on such evolution for the three clones in this game over patches? Maybe they haven't since these characters have gotten nothing but flak for their inclusion.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Why don't clones like Dr Mario and Dark Pit get buffed with the patch updates?

Surely it isn't too hard to change a few things, like giving Dark Pit a faster falling speed and different knockback angles?
Like less BKB and cool down for a wall of pain bair?
Less BKB for a d-throw that combos into up-tilt and up-smash/f-smash at low percents?
A fair that's more difficult to link, but has a strong semi-spike?
A nair that autocancels?
A 2-hit dair that instead launches opponents up, and combos into up air?
More hitstun on arrows so they juggle like Ness's PK thunder?
Much stronger f-smash with more range, but much weaker up smash and d-smash that launches vertically like Kirby's?
Reflector that is more powerful, but breaks more easily?
Multi-hit Up B that works similarly to Charizard's fly?
Slower dash speed and slightly better airspeed?

Pit and Pittoo are so similar that I'd hardly miss the differences.
Or simply apply these changes and give Pit the best parts of Pittoo.

 

[PushDustIn]

Thanks for the post @ LiteralGrill ! We are always happy to provide all this content for fellow Smash fans .

@Frostwraith is on vacation right now, but he'll be back soon! I'm sure he's looking forward to reading all of your comments.

 

[U-Throw]

It pretty much boils down to whether or not the clones actually offer something different and feel different to the originals, that's what defines whether or not I am OK with them.

How Dark Pit and Lucina were handled was inexcusable and they definitely could have been handled a bit better, especially in light of DLC being a thing this time around. Lucina in particular is redundant as a "beginner's Marth" since she is unlockable, while Marth is available on boot up. One of Lucina's unlock methods in both version involves using Marth too. It's no different to how Sonic Runners expects you to grind (or use real money) to unlock Silver, Cream, and Big, who are gimped "Easy Mode" characters for beginners, whom otherwise play the same as the other characters in their classes. I'm not OK with it in Sonic Runners, I'm not OK with in Smash.

And then Dark Pit, well, has only small differences in like, 3 moves. They didn't even attempt to hide it like they did with Lucina, he literally has no niche.

Dr. Mario I can admit is more different, but it's not for the better, he is flat out worse than Mario overall. And I still don't think there is a reason to shoe horn a duplicate of a character we already have for no reason (in the sense that Mario and Dr. Mario are the same person), especially if it's just a gimped version. Sheik and ZSS are fine since they at least play completely differently, look completely different, and they only have their own slots this time because the transformation mechanic was axed.

As far as clones go, I feel like they should be more akin to Toon Link.

Clones don't affect you if you don't like them, so I don't see why they should be removed on the basis that people who aren't affected by the clones dislike them. It's not like you would benefit from their removal in any tangible way. Why can't you just ignore them? People like myself enjoy the clones more than their originals, regardless of their tier placement, so demoting them to Alts. would be detrimental to our experience with Smash 4. Besides, the clones' inferiority can always be fixed in balance patches, so that's really no reason to make them Alts.

Also, I find it slightly hypocritical that you're OK with cel-shaded Link, but you dislike Mario in a lab coat.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I mean, Ken is a clone of Ryu, yet they're still loved, so what's the difference between Ryu and Ken vs. Marth and Lucina?

 

[ChikoLad]

Clones don't affect you if you don't like them, so I don't see why they should be removed on the basis that people who aren't affected by the clones dislike them. It's not like you would benefit from their removal in any tangible way. Why can't you just ignore them? People like myself enjoy the clones more than their originals, regardless of their tier placement, so demoting them to Alts. would be detrimental to our experience with Smash 4. Besides, the clones' inferiority can always be fixed in balance patches, so that's really no reason to make them Alts.

Also, I find it slightly hypocritical that you're OK with cel-shaded Link, but you dislike Mario in a lab coat.

I didn't say I wanted them removed, I said I thought they could have been handled better. Making them alts would have been one method that I would have preferred to just making them worse versions of the originals.

Link and Toon Link are actually completely different characters. Different build and art style, different personalities and family, and they come from two different timelines.

 

[U-Throw]

I didn't say I wanted them removed, I said I thought they could have been handled better. Making them alts would have been one method that I would have preferred to just making them worse versions of the originals.

Link and Toon Link are actually completely different characters. Different build and art style, different personalities and family, and they come from two different timelines.

I agree that the clones could've been handled a little better, but I don't think making them Alts. is the optimal alternative. The clones don't affect you in any way, whereas people like myself greatly enjoy them in their current state. If you don't like them, just ignore them. It's not like they really affect you.

That's stretching it, in my opinion. They're both reincarnations of Link, no matter how you twist it. One just happens to have a different art-style from the other. In the same way, Dr. Mario is just Mario in a lab coat.

 

[Phoenix502]

Sakurai adds clones to make fans happy, and fans turn around and bite him because they want the clones to be carbon copies as Alts., which, in turn, reduces the amount of content in the game.

Funny how that works.

if I got a dollar for every "bite the hand that feeds you" sort of comment toward smash's latest installment, I'd be set for life...

that is... until the day Smash fans can rally together some sort of compromise with Sakurai and the devs... which won't happen... cause it's either Sakurai satisfy the tech heavy players, or he does mostly his own thing, and we all know which has priority.

 

[JarBear]

I don't mind clone characters as long is enough difference to make them feel like there own character and not just straight up clones. Luigi is the best example, since he is really just a semi clone... But I will say, personally, Lucina and Dark Pitt are poorly done. I am sorry, I truly appreciate the wonderful work Sakurai and his team has done. Smash 4 is great, it really is ... I just wish that hopefully there will be more patches ... and quite frankly an overhaul on those two characters specifically to make them play and feel different.

Roy is a GREAT example of making a "clone" play and feel different. Roy and Marth play very differently, he is more on the line of semi-clone now.

I am not a programer and but I know it takes some serious time to make a character ... but would it be farfetched to tweak these characters? Change some attack animations like Falco to foxes move sets? A different special like Dr. Mario's Tornado and Mario's FLUDD?

I can feel the frustration from Sakurai who truly puts so much time and energy in making this game. For me, I won't complain if some of my character's never make it in, since again, the amount of time and energy it takes as well as the volume of choices out there .... I don't wan't to be the complainer.... just alter these clones a bit to make them feel a bit different but familiar.

 

[SpandexBullets]

Clones don't affect you if you don't like them, so I don't see why they should be removed on the basis that people who aren't affected by the clones dislike them. It's not like you would benefit from their removal in any tangible way. Why can't you just ignore them? People like myself enjoy the clones more than their originals, regardless of their tier placement, so demoting them to Alts. would be detrimental to our experience with Smash 4. Besides, the clones' inferiority can always be fixed in balance patches, so that's really no reason to make them Alts.

Also, I find it slightly hypocritical that you're OK with cel-shaded Link, but you dislike Mario in a lab coat.

Toon Link has very different moveset to Link and would almost be a totally different character, if the nature of Smash 4 and his nerfs from Brawl didn't force each to adopt basically the same playstyle. (Bair and Up B nerf coz Tlink too stronk im smush4)

He's right about Dr Mario being totally inferior.
He got a huge nerf, possessing a much weaker moveset overall (most of his moves are only marginally stronger than Mario's).
And because none of Dr Mario's moves and movement give him the same fluidity as Mario for combos and follow-ups, the fact that he's stronger doesn't matter any way!

 

[Munomario777]

I agree that the clones could've been handled a little better, but I don't think making them Alts. is the optimal alternative. The clones don't affect you in any way, whereas people like myself greatly enjoy them in their current state. If you don't like them, just ignore them. It's not like they really affect you.

That's stretching it, in my opinion. They're both reincarnations of Link, no matter how you twist it. One just happens to have a different art-style from the other. In the same way, Dr. Mario is just Mario in a lab coat.

I think what Sonicbrawler is saying is that, if the clones are worse than the original characters, they'd be more viable if they were simply alternate costumes, so Lucina mains would have Marth's (arguably) superior moveset.

Mario and Dr. Mario have the same exact build, face, size, etc; the only difference is clothing. Toon Link has a completely different art style, he's shorter, younger, has different proportions, is more expressive, has more vibrant colors, and has a unique moveset (for a semi-clone of course). The art style isn't the only thing that defines these characters.

 

[U-Throw]

I'm aware that Dr. Mario is inferior, but I don't care. I enjoy his playstyle much more than Mario's, and I'd drop him if he were demoted to an Alt. In regards to Lucina being a Marth Alt., I know several people that enjoy her tipper-less gameplay. They, too, would drop her if she were demoted to a Marth Alt.

The bottom line is that demoting clones to Alts. isn't the optimal solution for fans of the clones, and, since they don't affect you in any tangible way, there's no reason to demote them to Alts.

 

[JarBear]

Thinking of alts, would it be neat to add alts to characters as DLC like what they have been doing for the Miis and their costumes and such? Personally I would either make them cheap or bundle some.

That way you can get some "easy" to make content that would be fan service for character's that don't really need their own movesets. Like Mr. L over Luigi, Dry Bowser over Bowser or Impa over Shiek?

(Before or after fixing up Lucina and Dark Pit )

 

[ChikoLad]

I agree that the clones could've been handled a little better, but I don't think making them Alts. is the optimal alternative. The clones don't affect you in any way, whereas people like myself greatly enjoy them in their current state. If you don't like them, just ignore them. It's not like they really affect you.

That's stretching it, in my opinion. They're both reincarnations of Link, no matter how you twist it. One just happens to have a different art-style from the other. In the same way, Dr. Mario is just Mario in a lab coat.

Have you even played WW and TP? They are completely different characters. There is no debating that. I'm not speculating, I'm basing it off of what was shown on the games.

And it does effect me when I like Dr. Mario aesthetically, and when I kinda wanted Dark Pit as a non clone.

 

[Shuriblur]

I feel at this point there will always be complaints about clones. If a clone isn't strong enough, a clone is seen as inferior and a waste of time. If a clone is stronger than the original then people complain that the clone got better treatment.

I love Lucina. Connect with the character a lot more than I do Marth, and don't really care about the playstyle differences. You can tell me a million times over that Marth is better, and I'll agree with you but still want to play as Lucina.

The only clone that I kind of scratch my head with is Dark Pit, because the differences are very few. I feel his moves could've had different properties or something.

And hey, if we get more updates or another Smash game, whose to say we can't get these characters some Luigification?

 

[ChikoLad]

I feel at this point there will always be complaints about clones. If a clone isn't strong enough, a clone is seen as inferior and a waste of time. If a clone is stronger than the original then people complain that the clone got better treatment.

I love Lucina. Connect with the character a lot more than I do Marth, and don't really care about the playstyle differences. You can tell me a million times over that Marth is better, and I'll agree with you but still want to play as Lucina.

The only clone that I kind of scratch my head with is Dark Pit, because the differences are very few. I feel his moves could've had different properties or something.

And hey, if we get more updates or another Smash game, whose to say we can't get these characters some Luigification?

Clones won't be Luigified through patches, since "Luigified" clones are generally those with similar specials but mostly completely different otherwise. Like how Falco started off in Melee with the same animations as Fox for the most part on all of his moves, but then was given moves with unique animations along with unique properties. They won't be re-animating characters through patches. They may change frame data on existing animations, but they won't re-animate new moves altogether.

 

[AceGamer]

I mean, Ken is a clone of Ryu, yet they're still loved, so what's the difference between Ryu and Ken vs. Marth and Lucina?

Ken and Ryu have FAR more differences than Marth and Lucina, the fact that you compare those 2 means you haven't seen or played much Street Fighter. Look at some game play of SF 3rd Strike, SF alpha games and SF5 and tell me Ken and Ryu have the same amount of differences as Marth and Lucina. Plus Lucina literally doesn't present anything different as character, she's just Marth with training wheels and less range

 

[Shuriblur]

Disregard this...Mind was reading too fast and I didn't let everything sink in. XD Still, it can still happen for some clones to be Luigified later, if they make a return.

 

[U-Throw]

Have you even played WW and TP? They are completely different characters. There is no debating that. I'm not speculating, I'm basing it off of what was shown on the games.

And it does effect me when I like Dr. Mario aesthetically, and when I kinda wanted Dark Pit as a non clone.

Yes, I have played those games, but they're both reincarnations of the Hero of Time. They're different entities, not different characters.

Dr. Mario can always be buffed. That's not a viable argument. Furthermore, if it's Dr. Mario's playstyle that you dislike, then that's not ever going to be fixed. It's always been a part of his design philosophy, even if it wasn't properly implemented in Melee, and it's not on track to change anytime soon. If you prefer Mario's playstyle, then stick to Mario. You can't have everything your way. I would've loved to main Iggy, but I hate the way he plays, so I dropped him. I want Iggy to be a character that I can enjoy playing as, but I understand that such a thing would devastate his current players, so I toughened up and moved on. That's just life for you.

There's no reason why Dark Pit can't be de-cloned in Smash 5. That's hardly a reason to complain.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think semi-clones are cool and provide a neat alternative playstyle from their source character to the point they can't really be played the same way.

Toon Link is my favourite character and I'd sooner look for a different character to main than even thinking about maining Link if he where to ever get cut, since I never really enjoyed his playstyle in any of the Smash games really.

 

[Munomario777]

Yes, I have played those games, but they're both reincarnations of the Hero of Time. They're different entities, not different characters.

Dr. Mario can always be buffed. That's not a viable argument. Furthermore, if it's Dr. Mario's playstyle that you dislike, then that's not ever going to be fixed. It's always been a part of his design philosophy, even if it wasn't properly implemented in Melee, and it's not on track to change anytime soon. If you prefer Mario's playstyle, then stick to Mario. You can't have everything your way. I would've loved to main Iggy, but I hate the way he plays, so I dropped him. I want Iggy to be a character that I can enjoy playing as, but I understand that such a thing would devastate his current players, so I toughened up and moved on. That's just life for you.

There's no reason why Dark Pit can't be de-cloned in Smash 5. That's hardly a reason to complain.

They're different characters as much as Luke Skywater walker and Darth Vader are. Whether or not he's a "descendant" or "reincarnation" is irrelevant. They're different people with different experiences, different personalities, different families, different appearances, and different backgrounds. They're different characters.

"Dr. Mario could be buffed" or "Dark Pit could be decloned" is irrelevant to what we have in Smash 4. I'm sure that that's what Sonicbrawler is asking for. But the discussion at hand is how the clones were handled in Smash 4, not how they could be handled in Smash 5.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yes, I have played those games, but they're both reincarnations of the Hero of Time. They're different entities, not different characters.

Dr. Mario can always be buffed. That's not a viable argument. Furthermore, if it's Dr. Mario's playstyle that you dislike, then that's not ever going to be fixed. It's always been a part of his design philosophy, even if it wasn't properly implemented in Melee, and it's not on track to change anytime soon. If you prefer Mario's playstyle, then stick to Mario. You can't have everything your way. I would've loved to main Iggy, but I hate the way he plays, so I dropped him. I want Iggy to be a character that I can enjoy playing as, but I understand that such a thing would devastate his current players, so I toughened up and moved on. That's just life for you.

There's no reason why Dark Pit can't be de-cloned in Smash 5. That's hardly a reason to complain.

It's a spoiler, but WW Link is not a reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Please don't talk about Zelda lore if you don't understand it.

Dr. Mario is always gonna be worse than Mario by design, because they are not gonna make him any faster or even match Mario's speed. And if he is stronger, he automatically can't combo as well.

I don't even think there will be a Smash 5 personally, so that's kinda irrelevant.

 

[U-Throw]

It's a spoiler, but WW Link is not a reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Please don't talk about Zelda lore if you don't understand it.

Dr. Mario is always gonna be worse than Mario by design, because they are not gonna make him any faster or even match Mario's speed. And if he is stronger, he automatically can't combo as well.

I don't even think there will be a Smash 5 personally, so that's kinda irrelevant.

I see now that I was incorrect about WW Link being a reincarnation of the Hero of Time, but he's still related to the Young Link in OoT. This should explain everything.

That's simply not true. They can buff Dr. Mario's recovery, make him heavier, boost his defensive capabilities, further increase his damage output to the point where his combo potential is less important to his playstyle than Mario's, and much, much more. It's not that black-and-white.

Then you shouldn't be complaining about Dark Pit not getting a unique moveset, because there's no way he could've gotten it this time around. It was either Dark Pit as a clone or Dark Pit as an Alt. Dark Pit as a unique character was never a possibility for Smash 4.

 

[ChikoLad]

I see now that I was incorrect about WW Link being a reincarnation of the Hero of Time, but he's still related to the Young Link in OoT. This should explain everything.

That's simply not true. They can buff Dr. Mario's recovery, make him heavier, boost his defensive capabilities, further increase his damage output to the point where his combo potential is less important to his playstyle than Mario's, and much, much more. It's not that black-and-white.

Then you shouldn't be complaining about Dark Pit not getting a unique moveset, because there's no way he could've gotten it this time around. It was either Dark Pit as a clone or Dark Pit as an Alt. Dark Pit as a unique character was never a possibility for Smash 4.

If they buffed Dr. Mario like that, he would straight up be broken, like Brawl Meta Knight.

And why do you keep acting like your opinion is absolute, like you know the dev team? "There's no way Dark Pit would be unique" is a grand statement. They could have easily made him DLC and gave him a unique moveset.

And as I said, I would still prefer Dark Pit as an alt. As the one we got was worse. At the least, I would not mind him being more like Brawl Pit, but they didn't do that. I am criticising what they did, not what they could have done.

 

[Munomario777]

I see now that I was incorrect about WW Link being a reincarnation of the Hero of Time, but he's still related to the Young Link in OoT. This should explain everything.

Luke and Vader are related, and yet they're different characters.

That's simply not true. They can buff Dr. Mario's recovery, make him heavier, boost his defensive capabilities, further increase his damage output to the point where his combo potential is less important to his playstyle than Mario's, and much, much more. It's not that black-and-white.

Improving Doc's recovery would go against his concept of a less agile, yet stronger Mario. Making him heavier or increasing his damage output could work, but again, that didn't happen in Smash 4. The discussion at hand is about what these characters are, not what they could have been.

Then you shouldn't be complaining about Dark Pit not getting a unique moveset, because there's no way he could've gotten it this time around. It was either Dark Pit as a clone or Dark Pit as an Alt. Dark Pit as a unique character was never a possibility for Smash 4.

Just because there's a reason for something being how it is doesn't mean that we can't "complain" about it (as you put it). Case in point, Sonic 2006. That game was rushed for Sonic's 15th anniversary, and is still regarded as one of the worst in the series. It had to be an anniversary title, so there wasn't time to make it good. Does that mean that the criticisms and complaints about its (lack of) quality are invalid?

 

[Pazzo.]

Sakurai adds clones to make fans happy, and fans turn around and bite him because they want the clones to be carbon copies as Alts., which, in turn, reduces the amount of content in the game.

Funny how that works.

We then complain about less content.

As a game designer, you pretty much have to realize with feedback, you're much like a politician.

You can never win.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I personally hate when people excuse Sakurai's design laziness as "Lucina posed as Marth in Awakening, so her being a clone makes sense!" and "Dark Pit is a clone of Pit in Uprising, so him being a clone makes sense!". No, they're just poorly executed clones. Lucina is basically a transgendered, tipperless Marth and Dark Pit is basically a goth Pit with red contacts.

They have so little move variation that they play nearly identically. If they were something like Falco, where they have a cloned moveset, but different attributes on all their moves, I doubt we'd be complaining. It's how similar they are that irks me, not that they're in at all.

 

[JarBear]

I personally hate when people excuse Sakurai's design laziness as "Lucina posed as Marth in Awakening, so her being a clone makes sense!" and "Dark Pit is a clone of Pit in Uprising, so him being a clone makes sense!". No, they're just poorly executed clones. Lucina is basically a transgendered, tipperless Marth and Dark Pit is basically a goth Pit with red contacts.

They have so little move variation that they play nearly identically. If they were something like Falco, where they have a cloned moveset, but different attributes on all their moves, I doubt we'd be complaining. It's how similar they are that irks me, not that they're in at all.

I do agree with that last part. They are just so nearly identical ... I would be ok if they Falcon-ised them if it helps to save on time and resources. I won't plaster the Smash team for being "lazy" ... that would be far from the truth ... I would just say they didn't execute those two properly.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate the idea of "complete uniqueness". It's stupid.
All clones do is give X-Player an alternate way to play their character. It's like having a character with built-in Customs/Equipment. They also make the game more interesting because they bring previously unrelated characters (like Captain and Ganon) closer together, which supports the whole Smash Brothers gimmick, unlike having everyone be unique in which it would be Smash Friends. Huge difference
Also, Semi-Clones are the real wastes of slots.

The day Clones leave Smash is the day I stop buying their games.

 

[Munomario777]

I hate the idea of "complete uniqueness". It's stupid.
All clones do is give X-Player an alternate way to play their character. It's like having a character with built-in Customs/Equipment. They also make the game more interesting because they bring previously unrelated characters (like Captain and Ganon) closer together, which supports the whole Smash Brothers gimmick, unlike having everyone be unique in which it would be Smash Friends. Huge difference
Also, Semi-Clones are the real wastes of slots.

The day Clones leave Smash is the day I stop buying their games.

If clones are like characters with built in customs and equipment, then why not just use the customs and equipment instead? It's redundant, and unnecessary.

Players don't need an "alternate way to play their character"; players practice learning the nuances of one character, and when those nuances are changed by a clone, the player is thrown off/doesn't do as well as they would with the original character. And if the clone truly does have no differences, they'd work just as well if they were an alternate costume.

I don't see how having identical characters makes the game more interesting than actual varied characters (or semi-clones, even). I also don't see how semi-clones are a "waste of slots" more than near-identical characters that aren't as viable as the originals.

That's a strange reason for leaving a series.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Also, Semi-Clones are the real wastes of slots.

I'm not really sure how semi-clone characters are a waste.

I personally hate when people excuse Sakurai's design laziness as "Lucina posed as Marth in Awakening, so her being a clone makes sense!" and "Dark Pit is a clone of Pit in Uprising, so him being a clone makes sense!".

I personally thought that Lucina was more likely to be as similar to Marth as Wolf is to Fox, given the trend in Brawl where there were at most only semi-clone characters, than a character with even less differences to Marth than Roy had in Melee. Suffice to say, I expected Lucina to be similar, but not this similar considering that whilst she took up Marth's name in Awakening, her actual fighting style is more like Chrom's (who doesn't actually fight at all like Marth.)

 

[JarBear]

Not sure where that one comes from either ...

May not need to "luigi-fy" each clone, but at least "falco-nize" the clones.

 

[PhantomShab]

Sakurai adds clones to make fans happy, and fans turn around and bite him because they want the clones to be carbon copies as Alts., which, in turn, reduces the amount of content in the game.

Funny how that works.

If I'm a fan of a character with unique moveset potential, I'd rather the character not get in at all over being a clone.

they bring previously unrelated characters (like Captain and Ganon) closer together

Ganondorf is easily the biggest example of wasted potential due to being made a clone.

Also, Semi-Clones are the real wastes of slots.

This statement might be just as asinine as the theories that one guy made about Mewtwo being developed as a super OP non-toruney viable character.

 

[zeldasmash]

The clones in Melee, despite the big number of them, actually played differently then their original counterparts. Ganondorf does not play like Falcon due to being much more focused on power and less on speed, Falco does not play like Fox due to much worse mobility and attributes on his moves, Roy does not play like Marth due to the different mechanics of their swords, ect.

In Smash 4, Dark Pit & Lucina especially function nearly identically to their original counterparts, to having the exact same custom moves. This makes people question "why have them in there at all if they are just the same?". I have no problem with characters like Lucina making it in the roster, but having her like this? I would much rather have her as a Alt for Marth or make her DLC ala Roy. The way she is right now, Lucina is not a good addition to the roster and is basically irrelevant since Marth is just better then her in every way. Meanwhile, Dark Pit and Dr. Mario are basically costumes that were given their own character slots for no reason and both are worse then their original counterparts as characters.

If you're gonna have clones, at least give them different properties that are noticeable so that they can play differently. If you are gonna have a clone that plays exactly like the original, don't even add them as it adds nothing to the roster.

 

[U-Throw]

If they buffed Dr. Mario like that, he would straight up be broken, like Brawl Meta Knight.

And why do you keep acting like your opinion is absolute, like you know the dev team? "There's no way Dark Pit would be unique" is a grand statement. They could have easily made him DLC and gave him a unique moveset.

And as I said, I would still prefer Dark Pit as an alt. As the one we got was worse. At the least, I would not mind him being more like Brawl Pit, but they didn't do that. I am criticising what they did, not what they could have done.

I never said they should buff all of those areas. If they just buff one or two areas, or maybe even buff each area a little bit, he'll be balanced. It's that simple.

Sakurai didn't plan for DLC. He made Smash 4 without DLC in mind. Dark Pit, as far as we know, was never considered a candidate for a unique character. He was planned as an Alt. from the very beginning, and Sakurai and the development team decided to make him a clone at the last minute. Dark Pit, as far as we know, was never intended to be a unique character, so why would he be considered a candidate for DLC? There's no rhyme or reason to it.

Hardly. In most tier lists, Pit and Dark Pit are a spot or two away from each other. In a game like Smash 4, that's barely anything. Furthermore, Dark Pit can always be buffed.

Also, in regards to the "Luke and Darth Vader" analogy for Link and Toon Link, that's not very accurate. Every Link is a reincarnation of the previous one, and, thus, they are essentially the same character. However, this particular debate is irrelevant at this point, so I'm prepared to simply drop it.

 

[JarBear]

With the game established and now they are rolling out DLC and patches, I would think it is not as hard to update some of those characters, especially after so much time observing characters. What's wrong with buffing certain areas of Dr. Mario? Maybe change up some of his standard moves so they vary a little bit like Falco and Fox? Maybe a different tilt and back air?

I know Sakurai wouldn't do this, but in FE:A, Lucina can learn Aether, so that would be an idea of a different up-special, and mix up her standard moves, like maybe a spinning down-a move similar to Shulk?

What if Dark Pit was slightly slower but had slightly stronger standard moves? Maybe a spike for Down A? or a lingering neutral air? Or like Falco his down b can throw a reflecting guardian shield?

I am not saying those are the fixes, but you can see some slight-sh changes makes them more unique, especially post launch of the game and they are making money with the paid DLC.