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Smash Turn Desync - The next big IC's tech?

aloeknight47

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
6
Location
Canada
Introduction

I'm a Canadian Ice Climber's player who goes by Eidolon. A few months ago I was messing around with various IC's tech in the lab and I came across an interesting attribute of the Ice Climber's synced smash turn. Well this isn't necessarily true, this property was previously outlined in Exarch's "Guide to Desyncing: treating your opponents more coldly" here on SB, where it was explained as follows:
16. Initial dash Desynch- From standing position if you smash the joystick left or right and hit A at the correct time Popo will do a dash attack and Nana will do a forward smash, obviously, you can also hold in A to make her charge it and follow you. You have a 6 frame window for pressing A for this to work.
Which produces this effect: https://gfycat.com/PlayfulNiftyFlycatcher

This desync never held any weight, as it provides little advantage, and is far to slow to be used as a "setup" desync. However, the same desync can be performed with the C-stick.

Which produces this effect: https://gfycat.com/FarOffbeatHawaiianmonkseal

I haven't seen such a technique used or even so much as mentioned, so I assume its not yet discovered. We'll simply name it the Smash Turn Desync, referred to as the ST desync.

The Desync

First, how does this work? Inputing a smash turn causes Popo to go into his dash, before Nana's direction queue updates she is in a forward dash, during which you are able to give a c-stick input and cause her to just smash instead. NOTE: Nana can ONLY forward smash, up or down smash will not be received, but we can FSmash in-front or behind. Smashing too early will cause Popo to pivot>Fsmash, resulting in both climbers doing a standing smash, and smashing too late will miss Nana's actionable window, resulting in both climbers dashing. However, this is an easy widow to hit with a bit of practice.

The ST desync is a "non-buffer", "nana-first" type desync... What, so i'm not allowed to make up my own terminology? Ok fine, let's get into it.

First, this desync makes Nana move first. This isn't necessarily a pro or a con, but it changes our options. For example, ST desync is not a good option for setting up a Nanapult, which would require another Popo action after ST. However, leaving Popo actionable gives us some more interesting options, covered below.

Second, the ST desync doesn't utilize buffering, like a roll desync, but it takes advantage of Nana's lack of ability to pivot. This means that there is no delay (like waiting for a spotdodge) before our action. Secondly, and more importantly, unlike guard desync POPO IS ACTIONABLE IMMEDIATELY. This is the crux of the ST desync: speed.

What does this mean? ST desync can desync the climbers in LESS THAN 6 frames. And furthermore, it can be performed from standing, or out of a wavedash! The only other desync with these properties is a pivot, ST desync gives us the same properties without the technical difficulty (and we don't have to deal with nana's solo movement options).

Application

General Use : The Ice Climbers FSmash alone is a great move, essentially its a mini Marth Tipper. However, like most smashes, it has high end lag and is punishable. No longer! In any situation where you would synced FSmash, now we can ST desync. While Nana is throwing out a potentially punishable FSmash, Popo can be just behind her, waiting to counterattack anyone who goes in for a hit.


Wait, we're inventing tech? Doesn't that mean I'm allowed to make up silly names? Points to whoever gets my naming conventions.

Contingency (ST desync > DashDance) : Option selects! Being able to so quickly split up the climbers means we can quickly cover multiple options, specifically when tech chasing. When your opponent hits the ground, wavedash towards them and ST desync > DashDance. Nana's forward smash can cover Tech in-place, and Popo can be ready to cover the (more reactable) tech roll. While this isn't as optimal as reading tech in place for a grab, it removes the need for the read, or quick reaction.

Mislead (ST desync > Runnnn) : The simplest application, but has proven incredibly effective in my few months of play-testing. This works especially well against PEACH and PUFF. While Nana stands still in FSmash windup, Popo runs and draws your opponents eyes away for just enough time to leave them vulnerable to Nana's impending attack. Not recommended for regular use as you are intentionally splitting up yourself, however leaving Nana behind may be useful for baiting.

Ward (ST desync > Shieldstop) : Can be performed from back-side ST desync, or front-side ST desync > dash back. You're shielding and attacking at the same time, what more do you want??
https://gfycat.com/GeneralNastyGuillemot

Binding (ST desync > Grab) : Affectionately known as the "Instant Fly-trap". While it doesn't share the DI trap properties of its namesake, it IS a true combo into grab. Whether your FSmash hits a shield or not a grab is still guaranteed.
https://gfycat.com/AromaticRareKittiwake

Binding variant : Raise Dead. Discovered while practicing hand-offs on dummys, normally knocked down opponents cannot be grabbed, this makes IC's players sad. But we CAN grab them from hitstun. (NOTE: In most cases jab reset is preferred, however this just looks cool)
https://gfycat.com/GiddyWeakFrenchbulldog

Wall of Force (ST desync > pivot USmash) : Still keen on pivoting? Pivot Usmash (or Fsmash in the other direction, if you need to guard from both sides, for whatever reason) allows the climbers to instantly perform TWO different smashes simultaneously. While this was possible before, keep in mind there is no setup required, this is immediate!
https://gfycat.com/InbornForcefulAnt

Freedom of Movement (ST desync > jump > aerial) : The few frames of startup on Nana's FSmash gives us some time to get airborne and cover area above while she covers in front. Good for covering high/low recoveries.
https://gfycat.com/BoringWiltedAmazondolphin

True Strike (ST desync > dash jump > aerial) : **My favourite technique** When the opponent is hit by Nana's FSmash Popo can preemptively move in for a followup. At high percentages this leads into tech-chase. But, at low percentages this TRUE COMBOS INTO ANY AERIAL. NOTE This can be done optionally out of a wavedash, with a front-side or back-side ST desync, and with any aerial! Shown below is a back-side ST desync > Fair.
https://gfycat.com/SphericalSelfreliantKomododragon
GET DUNKED

Extended desyncs : The speed of the ST desync allows us to quickly drop Nana off, take an action with Popo, and have Nana ready to cover us with a followup. Here's one example i've found: ST desync (whiffed) > SHFFL Fair > Nana Dash (this input is necessary) > L-cancel + Nana Grab. NOTE The last Z input L-cancel's for Popo and grabs with Nana.
https://gfycat.com/BlackUnimportantCatfish
(Mind the execution, Dolphin is weird)

Conclusion

Situational.

 
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Ol Jim Grizzigsby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Right behind you
Man, this is great write-up and i hate to be the one to say it but im pretty sure these are pivot desyncs. none the less impressive though, some great techniques, the smash grab is really sick, im gonna try and work on that. Also you can desync up/downsmash but its weird, you get a turnaround d/usmash with popo and nana does the dash. its got a way different timing though, dash and smash inputs are almost at the same time.
 

Ol Jim Grizzigsby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Right behind you
knew i saw some stuff on this somewhere.
http://smashboards.com/threads/wavedash-pivot-desyncing.420925/
down the thread a bit i found this, kyu is legit af.
The dash attack/f-smash desynch and the solo dash attack desynchs work for essentially the same reason. On frames 1-4 of dash forward, you can f-smash but can't dash attack. Starting on frame 1 of dash back, you can dash attack but can't f-smash. When you smash turn, Nana dashes forward. If you hit A while holding the same direction, Popo will interpret the input as dash attack while she interprets it as f-smash. If you let go of the direction before hitting A, Popo will dash attack and Nana will simply dash forward (since she can't dash attack during these frames).
you can see some of these things in the video "two climbers, two hands", which also has some other basic desync stuff
 
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Ol Jim Grizzigsby

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
16
Location
Right behind you
yeah, theres talk of making a "desync tech" thread in the general, but i agree, if we had all the glorious gifs and tech info in one place it would be th' bomb-diggidy
 

NTRN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
38
I have been using these for a couple months as a way to cover ledge and surprise opponents. If I'm edge guarding, I will stand facing the edge, dash away last second and either cover a mid stage option or wait in shield and usmash or bair/uair. You can even WD and grab ledge very fast.
I was crafting that you can dash back f smash the ledge, but while Nana is prepping, jump with popo and hold 'a' to charge the smash, then WD to ledge.
Nana will charge until you are falling off stage to grab ledge.

But mad buttons to be pressed. Mad buttons. Cstick to y to a in like.. Very few frames.

I also WD around facing opponent, throw out dash back fsmash and see how they respond. Most times people pay a lot more attention to popo, so Nana surprises them and popo is free to follow up or counterhit.

I do a similar tech with upsmash and dsmash, but popo does the attack and Nana just dashes backwards. She can follow up with aerials or blizzard or WD grab. I mostly use it as a bait, because again, attention is on popo whiffing an usmash, not on Nana sding towards the opponent with a grab or smash.
 
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quindelin

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 30, 2010
Messages
14
Hey! This tech is really good! I've been using it frequently in tournament matches and it has some real potential. I'm trying to integrate it into other moves into my playstyle, though.

I've been trying to integrate a lot of AC Bairs into my play and was playing around with doing a retreating AC Bair when I see a Fox or Falco coming in with an aerial and then right after that retreating bair I want to do a ST desync (to option select me taking back the space that I gave up doing a retreating aerial) but it's not happening like it should.

I don't know that much about auto cancel aerials or the dash input after one or why Nana isn't receiving the smash input during her pivot to dash. Could someone help me out with this or explain to me why this is happening?
 

NTRN

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 8, 2016
Messages
38
Hey! This tech is really good! I've been using it frequently in tournament matches and it has some real potential. I'm trying to integrate it into other moves into my playstyle, though.

I've been trying to integrate a lot of AC Bairs into my play and was playing around with doing a retreating AC Bair when I see a Fox or Falco coming in with an aerial and then right after that retreating bair I want to do a ST desync (to option select me taking back the space that I gave up doing a retreating aerial) but it's not happening like it should.

I don't know that much about auto cancel aerials or the dash input after one or why Nana isn't receiving the smash input during her pivot to dash. Could someone help me out with this or explain to me why this is happening?
Break it in to parts. Once you are standing in neutral position after a landing (like ac bair) just dash back. Work on the dash backs, then the ac bairs, then work on getting them closer and closer together.
Standing/walking animation is standing/walking animation, it doesn't matter what you were doing before it. You just have to be clean.

I actually have a tech spotlight video from a number of months back featuring a number of the applications of this tech (and other not well known applications) on YouTube if anyone is interested

https://youtu.be/T0Wykq16gh4

Edit: posted link to video
 
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