Smash Bros. Melee was "too difficult" - New Sakurai Interview

[crismas]

There will never be another like Melee, so sad... this whole interview was severely disappointing. Leaves little hope that the next installment of smash will be something to look forward to (at least competitively). I think how he's going about this, is how games are going down the road right now in general, easy. Older games are generally challenging even the ones we play now in our adulthood from childhood. I'm guessing that Sakurai just wants smash to be another Mario Party-esque game.

Nintendo's classic GameCube scrapper Super Smash Bros. Melee was "too difficult", according to the game's creator, and any future title in the series will not be aimed at the same hardcore crowd.

Masahiro Sakurai told Famitsu (translated by 1Up), "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years. But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then?

"That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance," he explained of the excellent 2008 Wii follow-up.

"There are three Smash Bros. games out now," he continued, "but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was.

"Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

"If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in, then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details.

"That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before," he concluded.

While he might have overdone it with the difficulty curve, Sakurai went on to explain that he's still a big fan of his 2001 masterpiece.

"Melee is the sharpest game in the series. It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

Sakurai also revealed a little about the effect the game's intense development period had on him.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle. Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind.

"I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle - I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

Next up from Sakurai is Kid Icarus: Uprising for the 3DS, due some time next year.

Here's the source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult?

More on Sakurai's thoughts (also posted today as well):

Posted by Rhan:

It's been nine years -- jeez, already? -- since Super Smash Bros. Melee was released for the Nintendo GameCube. The multiplayer fighter wound up becoming the GC's #1 release, with over seven million copies sold worldwide, but as designer Masahiro Sakurai explained in his most recent column for Famitsu magazine, development wasn't exactly fun and games.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle," Sakurai wrote. "Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind. I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle -- I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

What drove Sakurai through all that work? "I seriously felt like a man on a mission," he said. "With the original [Nintendo 64] Smash Bros., there was no guarantee the game would be well-received at all -- I had my hands full just trying to make it into the completely new sort of fighting game I had in mind. With Melee, though, the previous game did well enough that Nintendo and the character designers knew what I wanted in advance. And I wanted a lot. It was the biggest project I had ever led up to that point -- the first game of mine on disc-based media, the first that used an orchestra for music, the first with 'real' polygon graphics. My staff was raring to go, and we plunged in full-tilt from the start. I pushed myself beyond any limit I could think of because I doubted I'd ever have this sheer amount of work in my hands ever again."

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

Source: http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sak...ts-super-smash



Thoughts?

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

This game is sooooooooo haaaaaard


lol

Though hearing he doesn't plan to make another melee couldn't be less surprising.

 

[CloneHat]

SAKURAAAAAAAAIIII!

Where's the competitive love?

 

[Geist]

I find that hard to swallow, considering that at the time I first picked up melee I was completely casual about it. I was 10 when I first played it and to me it was the perfect casual experience at the time. I couldn't even imagine that there was a deeper side to it until a friend introduced me.
So it's weird to me how he sees it as an obligation to keep Smash exclusive to a certain crowd, when one of the biggest things about melee to me was its ability to be appealing to literally any crowd.

Besides all this, I thought Sakurai had said on multiple occasions that he won't be involved in another Smash game.

 

[Wenbobular]

There's a similar thread in the Brawl forums that's degenerated into Brawl vs Melee

 

[Pi]

You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details.

wat .

 

[rhan]

So... I read something completely different today.

It's been nine years -- jeez, already? -- since Super Smash Bros. Melee was released for the Nintendo GameCube. The multiplayer fighter wound up becoming the GC's #1 release, with over seven million copies sold worldwide, but as designer Masahiro Sakurai explained in his most recent column for Famitsu magazine, development wasn't exactly fun and games.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle," Sakurai wrote. "Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind. I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle -- I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

What drove Sakurai through all that work? "I seriously felt like a man on a mission," he said. "With the original [Nintendo 64] Smash Bros., there was no guarantee the game would be well-received at all -- I had my hands full just trying to make it into the completely new sort of fighting game I had in mind. With Melee, though, the previous game did well enough that Nintendo and the character designers knew what I wanted in advance. And I wanted a lot. It was the biggest project I had ever led up to that point -- the first game of mine on disc-based media, the first that used an orchestra for music, the first with 'real' polygon graphics. My staff was raring to go, and we plunged in full-tilt from the start. I pushed myself beyond any limit I could think of because I doubted I'd ever have this sheer amount of work in my hands ever again."

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Totally topic related. This article came out today also.

 

[Lovage]

yeah melee is really good

reading sakurai's thoughts about the insane development cycle probably has something to do with it, they just did a really good job creating each individual aspect of the game, that's probably why we're still playing it 9 years later.

and i don't think it's news to anybody here that there'll never be another game like melee, but i'm pretty much fine with that



and god brawl sucks LOL

 

[LLDL]

Doesn't he realize that Melee can be played on the same low level as brawl for new comers? Melee is basically the same as brawl to the new comers. Although you'd have to be stupid to not realize the superior engine even if you don't play advanced at all.

The difference is that Melee can go beyond that, if you push hard enough. wtf is wrong with that man. I mean, I do sympathize. He worked on it 24/7 for a year and a month, no time off. I thank him for that, but he could have easily just ported the engine and made adjustments. EASILY, could have done that.

 

[crismas]

@Rhan, thanks for posting that too. I'll add it to the top!

@Lovage, not surprised either but leaves little hope that anything smash related in the future will be just as good or similar to the level Melee was. Melee will always be amazing though, either way so I agree.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

he wants more people to play so he's dumbing it down. this sounds a lot like how high schools try to pass most of their students. instend of better teaching lets make it easier to reach the bare min. If i've worked for what I have I should be able to enjoy that. also why does he care about high level? most people buy the game not for highlevel but for fun.

also everyone thinks they're great at smash when they play and WILL say it isn't so hard you have to dumbby down the game it's very simple to understadn at low levels this isn't like SF.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

read this http://www.1up.com/news/smash-bros-creator-don-create

sounds like another soulless game maker that didn't get serious till later

 

[Vro]

You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details.

After all, it's just a game.

<3 melee

 

[0Room]

I mean, I understand where he's coming from.
I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

 

[CableCho57]

melee can be for casual noobs with all the items and fun, or serious and intense on another exciting level

brawl can be for casual noobs with all the items and fun, or serious and gay with glitches, spammed attackes, and stalling

 

[LLDL]

don't forget the tripping. LOL.

Nintendo keeps their franchises to themselves. But let's say they gave smash bros to someone else, the way crash bandicoot and spyro were given to that sierra company. I would give smash to capcom.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

why would capcom want smash? also the flaw is the fact they wouldn't give them any of the charcters so they would only use the mechincals and most likly a handfull of nindetdo charcters on the wii verison like holy crap on wii verison you get mario as a serect charcter.

also keep in mind capcom may not like some things about smash and be like WTF? where are all the quarter circles? and making it so falcon can no longer walk the moon. Also I'm pretty sure if they wanted to make a game like it without nindetdo charcters they easily could.

 

[CloneHat]

You can play Melee at a low or high level, but restricting it to a low level is just limiting a deep, fleshed-out game.

Or are there not enough Smash players to find someone around your level?

 

[ArstNeio]

I love Melee as much as the next guy, but I do want to say that a game being slower paced and less technically focused does not preclude it from being competitive.

Also we'll always have community mods. I must say they are all quite excellent

 

[a nub]

I'd saw we all knew that smash 4 is going down the same road as brawl as much as we hope we'll get a true melee sequel

but it's been 9 years and melee ***** more than ever so it's w/e lol

 

[Jonas]

So basically Melee was too good, so he had to make Brawl a little worse.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

melee can be for casual noobs with all the items and fun, or serious and intense on another exciting level

brawl can be for casual noobs with all the items and fun, or serious and gay with glitches, spammed attackes, and stalling

exactly

any idiot can pick up & play melee and have more fun with it then they would with a regular fighter. melee is a rare example of a game that appeals fully to both hardcore and casual gamers. how is that bad?

 

[MuraRengan]

Melee too good.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I posted this in the Brawl forum thread on this topic:

thats a pretty disappointing interview

My sentiment as well. Sakurai seems to think that as a developer, he has to choose between satisfying either the hardcore or the casual crowd. What he ignores is that he can satisfy both, and in fact, he already has with the game that he maligns in the interview. Melee sold 7 million copies, and 99% of those people who purchased the game were not tournament players. Everyone was happy; we tournament players had some great times, and regular players did too.

Like it or not, there is a general trend in the fighting game genre towards easier and more accessible. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Street Fighter IV is easier than Third Strike, but the trade-off is that SF4 essentially revitalized the entire genre, and now we have a major release every year. That seems like a pretty good deal to me, but the key is that Capcom also hasn't forgotten about the people that want something more challenging than SF4. Those people are getting an improved version of Third Strike.

Sakurai has overlearned the lessons of the industry. Brawl being more accessible is not the problem. The problem is that the design choices made for Brawl gutted what made Melee such an enjoyable experience for everyone, tournament and non-tournament players alike. And I suppose that someone would argue that Brawl has sold three million more copies than Melee. That's true, but is that because it's "more accessible," or because the Wii is selling like gangbusters in comparison to the Gamecube?*

*

Spoiler

Or put another way- Melee sold 7 million copies on a system with a 21 million unit install base (33% adoption rate) versus Brawl which has sold 10 million copies on a system with a 77 million unit install base (12% adoption rate)

 

[Anth0ny]

so disappointing.

and i think sakurai is truly ********:

“Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult.”

“If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in, then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can’t let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details.

1. Really? That's why all my non-competitive friends still refuse to play Brawl? The gameplay was not hard, and if you think so you're an idiot who can't play games worth a damn. Waveshining is one thing, but playing Smash the level most players play is not hard. At...all.

2. Melee has sold over 7 million copies. Of those 7 million players, probably a whole 5 percent of those people played the game competitively. So... why are we dumbing it down again? I've never heard "Melee sucks compared to 64, I can't stand this ****ing game"... whereas I've heard it the majority of the time for Brawl in comparison to Melee.

It's not just the hardcore players you dimwit, EVERYONE was disappointed with Brawl.

 

[-Final-]

I think that melee is the better game competitively, but I agree with Sakurai completely with this. With all the games that have been coming out recently, I think Brawl appealed more in general the way it was. And I agree that it is an easier game to get into.

There is nothing bad about Brawl at all except a lower level of competitivity and slight character imbalance. Both games can be fun for both competitive and casual smashers. Besides, what the hell were you all expecting from brawl? A game more competitive than melee?

 

[omgwtfToph]

there's a misconception among nintendo and several other video game publishers these days that they have to appeal exclusively to the casual crowd to do their business. that's the whole point of the wii

sakurai unfortunately buys into this belief, even though i'm glad he said what he did about melee. although i suspect that the nigh-excessive level of technical detail in melee probably gave him a bad impression about designing games like that. (from a programmer's point of view, i can definitely attest to brawl probably being much more fun to make compared to a game like melee)

like, melee is truly too good. and to make it too good, it sounds like sakurai went through hell. and it's less of "i'm lazy so i don't want to make another game too good" and more of "after all that work, i would prefer to just cater to the more casual fanbase." most game designers work far too long to be hardcore gamers themselves, so it's only natural that they would adopt more of a casual mindset

fun fact on sakurai, btw: from what japanese players told me, he's a falcon main in melee and a metaknight main in brawl LOL. figures, right?


anyway

i believe that, like most things in history, gaming will prove to be cyclical, and that in 10 to 20 years, there will be a new resurgence of hardcore-type games and we'll start to see new fighters as technical as Melee and GGXX come out again

and there are plenty of other game design studios right now that share the sentiment of hardcore gamers and are pushing gaming back in that direction. i just hope they're successful



edit: another thing I'd like to point out. i suspect that, because sakurai sees smash from the point of view of a developer, when he says "melee is too difficult" he's acknowledging melee in its entirety. that is, "competitive melee is too difficult." when you build a program, or design a game, you consider all possible events that could happen in your game - and going through long design periods, i'm sure the smash developers noticed a lot of the stuff that made melee what it is today and tweaked those things. have you guys seen the video of the beta version of melee where falcon's dthrow doesn't bounce an opponent, and behaves more like a faster version of fox's dthrow where the opponent stays grounded WITHOUT bouncing? falcon could've jab reset techchased like sheik for days with that ****. it's gone now, as we know.

so i have a suspicion that sakurai's primary opinion is "balancing all that bull**** was way too much trouble considering my original motivations for creating smash bros., because my goal has always been to please kids and the casual crowd."

i guess i see where sakurai is coming from, although i really, really wish he didn't have that mindset.


edit: btw, if you want a smile, check out the comments on this page haha. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-12-08-smash-bros-melee-was-too-difficult? they're like 90% casual gamers who are like "man melee was so much better than brawl, i loved watching the pros play, it was so beautiful" etc

there's hope after all, lol

 

[LLDL]

why would capcom want smash? also the flaw is the fact they wouldn't give them any of the charcters so they would only use the mechincals and most likly a handfull of nindetdo charcters on the wii verison like holy crap on wii verison you get mario as a serect charcter.

also keep in mind capcom may not like some things about smash and be like WTF? where are all the quarter circles? and making it so falcon can no longer walk the moon. Also I'm pretty sure if they wanted to make a game like it without nindetdo charcters they easily could.

you're missing the point. Capcom's games in general have tight controls. Meaning you can cancel your moves and are able to do anything and move after you land. If they devised their own smash engine, I am sure it'd automatically be better to brawls. Of course you wouldn't wavedash or moonwalk because they would have their own engine.

Not that that would ever happen, but if Nintendo were to pass on smash to another company. Capcom would be the one.

 

[Pita]

It's already well known that Sakurai simply HATES competitive gaming. Brawl can't be as competitive as it could have been due to the random tripping (All in good fun, right, Brawl players?) and the only reason Sakurai is so against having any game similar to Melee is because he saw what the Melee Competitive Scene did with the game that he intended to be for casual play only.

He got Nintendo fever, if you ask me. "Screw hardcore gamers, we need to have the KIDS! The kids who will grow up to be hardcore gamers will love our non-hardcore games for sure!"

Seriously Nintendo, there's a reason everyone over the age of 13 has a PS3 or an XBox360, it's because your games are lackluster and above all, childish... Sakurai wants the same with the sequel to Melee-I mean Brawl.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

The main reason why I like smash over all other fighters i've ever checked in to is because in melee you have sooooo much control and you can STILL lock people down like crazy just think if you didn't have DI, powersheilding, as many tech options, sheild options like so, and etc. falco would never let you go and he even still doesn't let go with all these escape routes.

but you get a lot of offense options you normally don't get also. melee has so much control it's amazing.

 

[omgwtfToph]

incidentally, i sort of think that if melee stays strong throughout the lifespan of "smash 4" while the brawl community moves on, there will be a good case for a competitively-geared "smash 5" for two reasons:

1. melee will have proved the longevity of a deep fighter
2. as i said before, i think gaming is going to start moving in a more hardcore direction in the future

 

[Anth0ny]

I think the saddest thing is that Sakurai doesn't strive to top the "sharpest entry in the series". I mean, what kind of mindset is that?

 

[Gamegenie222]

Why does Sakurai hate us? What does he see wrong with us? I'm a competitive brawl player but I love melee more because of more options, speed, combos and no gay defensive campy play but I'm glad he made melee fast and hard on purpose but he never gave us a specific reason why he doesn't like competitive smash?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it's because he wants noobs to have chance. which in truth even in brawl if they know what they're doing they'll win hopefully. being a noob to brawl or at least close to it's lowest level I was able to at least take a stock off a MK and sheik as puff. I played somewhat like melee in the way of using airspeed like A DD but no bairs that may miss like other puffs in melee.

duck rest XD even in brawl. you have to understand game theory and junk to even have a chance in the games it doesn't matter if you can do all the tech skill if you don't get pin them down or that missing a move gets you punished hard you will lose. If I can SHFFL that doesn't mean i'm going to land crap if I keep mindlessly approaching.

even if bralw had more problems noobs would still get kickedin the nuts by people who play serious.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Guys, that's business.

If I was in his shoes it would be highly illogical to make a game for a fansite than a proportionally greater group praising their Wii Sports and stupid 3DSs which they haven't seen in person yet.

 

[Bing]

If Melee = Too Difficult

Then us Melee players = beasts?

 

[Metal Reeper]

We have Melee, we Don't need another. Thanks for the post Crismas.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

pretty much bing

 

[DippnDots]

You guys are dumb, sakurai is clearly mindgaming us, just like he mindgamed us with brawlol.

 

[omgwtfToph]

i think working 40 hour shifts with no sunday vacations probably has something to do with it LOL

plus smash is a kids series so think about it like this:

let's say that Bandai hired you, as an aspiring film director, to direct the new Power Rangers movie coming out, and this was your big break. you pour your heart and soul into it and make it way too amazing for its own good - it wins several awards and somehow ends up being one of the best films of the year. you become an accomplished director, and years later when you are asked to create the sequel to the movie, you step back and go: "wait, power rangers is a kid's series for christsakes. do I REALLY have to go through all that again?" wouldn't it be more natural to tailor it more towards its original audience, now that you're a more matured filmmaker and your vision is more clearly defined?

sure, the diehard fans of the first Power Rangers movie you directed are going to be upset at you for not dedicating yourself so wholly to making another incredible movie. but so what? those fans only constitute like, 3-5% of your audience. and besides, there are other awesome film franchises out there that cater to serious moviegoers. why can't they just go watch THOSE movies instead?


i think that analogy isn't perfect, but holds on several levels.