Sabaku No Gaara
Smash Rookie
Only character I have a really hard time playing against is Sheik. Would appreciate any help on this MU.
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All MU threads here or MU threads in other character boards are added here: http://smashboards.com/threads/link-matchup-index.374493/Thanks for the advice. There should be a forum containing all of Link's MU information, would be really helpful.
True. Sheiks I've played wait to use sideB once I'm offstage to get the kill. What do you mean by empty jumps to jab?Actual Sheiks won't use side-B on your for anything but edge guarding, and even then, probably not that often.
Do be wary of her getting you in the air, though. Sheik's juggling capabilities are much better in this game, and with air-dodging being as bad as it is, it can be tricky getting back on the ground and regaining your footing against her. If Sheik does get you in the air, I recommend jumping away and pulling a bomb, or jumping away and fast-falling down.
This matchup isn't as rough for Link as in previous games, but you'll still need to play defensively and be attentive to Sheik's movements. Empty jumps to jabs can throw her (and a lot of other characters, actually) off guard, as she'll often wait for you to do an air attack and then fair, nair, etc, out of shield.
Also, I haven't tested it, but I'm guessing you can block her standing needles while closing distance by slowly walking forward with the Hylian shield. Even if that doesn't work, you can negate thrown needles on reaction by crouching a lot of times. Just something to consider.
As in, short hop at them like you're about to do an air attack, except don't. You land and jab instead.True. Sheiks I've played wait to use sideB once I'm offstage to get the kill. What do you mean by empty jumps to jab?
Looking forward to your post. I totally agree. Based on my experience, Sheik is the hardest MU for Link, right in front of Captain Falcon. I celebrate when I manage to get a single stock off of Sheik. Speed, combo potential, and ability to put constant pressure instills such a fear in me when I play against her.Wanted to revive this discussion because in my personal opinion, this matchup is going to be one of, if not THE hardest matchup you guys will normally face. Keep in mind this is a discussion of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, so the Link in this scenario has just as much skill/knowledge of the game as the Sheik would.
Sheik vs. Link: Easily a disadvantage for Link, at the very least 6/4 in Sheik's favor, probably worse.
I'll edit this post either later tonight or tomorrow and give a full write-up on the matchup (her true combos on Link, edge-guarding situations that Sheiks will commonly go for, common examples of situations in the neutral game).
Also, feel free to post anything you may have in terms of experience and I'll make sure you guys have the correct information and general mindset of what is expected.
I have to agree with you on this one bro.I guess I can try and throw in some words, I've played quite a few good sheiks (Not FG). Hopefully there won't be any misinformation, but if you disagree with something then let me know.
If you are up against a good sheik in tournament you better hope your secondary is warmed up.
If you decide for some reason to stay Link you are going to need 150% of your full focus. A lot of sheiks like to shield because they want to initiate their bread and butter combos through shieldgrabs. You need to space your aerials such that you are never susceptible to getting shield grabbed. Additionally if you ever hit sheik's shield with your jab you need to either get the hell out of there or grab. Never try and finish the jab combo on shield. You need to keep sheik out of grab,tilt and jab range. You have a sword, you have the better reach and you need to capitalize on that. 'Combo DI' is very important in this matchup, head over to the sheik boards and look at some of the info there. They have lists on which percents and so on they can true combo bouncing fish from forward throw. They have other lists as well and you need to be aware of that stuff. In general DI'ing away and spamming nair or jump often works to get out of fair combos. Go into training mode experiment a bit with sheik to find out at which times repeated fairs do not true combo. Don't use zair unless its guaranteed to hit, its basically asking to get grabbed. Be really careful with the boomerang, sheik can basically powershield it to bouncing fish at mid-range and its guaranteed. At close range sheik can dash grab you after the powershield. Be very careful with bomb-pulls, if you do it at a bad time sheik can bouncing fish you or run up and fair or RAR bair you. Do not underestimate the speed of sheik. Respect sheiks KO potential, its a myth that sheik has a hard time KO'ing. Sheik is also really good at gimping Link always have a bomb in hand while recovering and use the boomerang to stop gimping attempts. Some sheiks also like to throw out the uair chaingrab thing, if you DI behind sheik you should get out of it pretty easily.
Remember you want to force the opposing player to play your game at your pace. You want to play inside you comfortable zones because that is where you have the highest chance of winning. The matchup becomes a lot easier if the sheik player respects you too much. Since there aren't too many Links out there a sheik player hopefully has zero MU experience against Link, use this to you advantage to scare the sheik into respecting you. The moment the sheik player realizes that he/she can rush you down and there is not too much you can do about it you will be facing an extreme uphill battle.
This matchup is just bad news in general.
Sheik has one of the best dash > shield approaches in the game simply because her dash is very quick. Keep in mind also that Sheik has incredible walk speed allowing her to safely approach anyone in quick fashion along with the fact that she doesn't have to commit to anything while walking.If you decide for some reason to stay Link you are going to need 150% of your full focus. A lot of sheiks like to shield because they want to initiate their bread and butter combos through shieldgrabs.
Yes, if Link wants to win this matchup, your best is to keep Sheik at sword tipper range or farther. One poorly thrown boomerang or grounded arrow can give Sheik an opportunity to get in and deal some serious damage. Be aware that if a Sheik catches on to your projectile patterns, they can indeed use bouncing fish to hit the startup of Link's projectiles (such as a bomb pull, arrow shot, or boomerang).You need to space your aerials such that you are never susceptible to getting shield grabbed. Additionally if you ever hit sheik's shield with your jab you need to either get the hell out of there or grab. Never try and finish the jab combo on shield. You need to keep sheik out of grab,tilt and jab range. You have a sword, you have the better reach and you need to capitalize on that.
Make sure to read above about DIing her throws as DIing away will give her the most options at the low percents for combo potential. You can use Link's nair as a combo breaker, but most Sheiks are generally aware of when fair stops being a true combo and will start to space it better in order to have time to bait that out before going for another follow up. Also, if Sheik decides to go for RAR bair after the fair string, it can beat Link's nair (depending on range and whether her bair sweet spots) or it can trade. I wouldn't say "spam" nair as that's asking to get baited, but you will definitely need to challenge Sheik or else you're just combo fodder. Again, having bombs in these situations helps as it may explode and interrupt her combos/momentum.This 'Combo DI' is very important in this matchup, head over to the sheik boards and look at some of the info there. They have lists on which percents and so on they can true combo bouncing fish from forward throw. They have other lists as well and you need to be aware of that stuff. In general DI'ing away and spamming nair or jump often works to get out of fair combos. Go into training mode experiment a bit with sheik to find out at which times repeated fairs do not true combo. Don't use zair unless its guaranteed to hit, its basically asking to get grabbed. Be really careful with the boomerang, sheik can basically powershield it to bouncing fish at mid-range and its guaranteed. At close range sheik can dash grab you after the powershield. Be very careful with bomb-pulls, if you do it at a bad time sheik can bouncing fish you or run up and fair or RAR bair you. Do not underestimate the speed of sheik. Respect sheiks KO potential, its a myth that sheik has a hard time KO'ing. Sheik is also really good at gimping Link always have a bomb in hand while recovering and use the boomerang to stop gimping attempts. Some sheiks also like to throw out the uair chaingrab thing, if you DI behind sheik you should get out of it pretty easily.
Yeah this is what you need to do in a nutshell. Link needs to control the distance and pace of the match, even if that means you are constantly running away.Remember you want to force the opposing player to play your game at your pace. You want to play inside you comfortable zones because that is where you have the highest chance of winning. The matchup becomes a lot easier if the sheik player respects you too much. Since there aren't too many Links out there a sheik player hopefully has zero MU experience against Link, use this to you advantage to scare the sheik into respecting you. The moment the sheik player realizes that he/she can rush you down and there is not too much you can do about it you will be facing an extreme uphill battle.
This matchup is just bad news in general.
It'll have to be around 8 or 9Laws WiFi me later, I don't have problems with Shield but then again I don't play good ones.
I'm not too familiar with Link's customs other than boomerang and meteor bombs to be quite honest.@ Lawz. have you fought much Sheik with customs on? If so, what loadout(s) do you prefer?
I ask because today when fighting a Sheik I usually lose to, I picked Giant Bombs on a lark. I don't like GBs for the same reason as most everyone else (namely, they don't explode on contact with the target), but it worked for me in this particular MU for a couple of reasons:
1) Sheik can no longer meaningfully catch my bombs and use them against me. If she tries, I approach so that any explosion will hit us both.
2) if Sheik combos me when I have a GBomb, and the GBomb detonates, the explosion is frequently large enough to hit us both.
3) since I so rarely seem to have any control anyway, I went kamikaze and ensured that GBs would at least hit us both, if not Sheik cleanly, as much as possible. This helped because Sheik's Rage destroys her own combos, Link's rage is always helpful, and Link is heavier than Sheik to begin with.
(I also had the Skyward Leap up-B because I was intending to merely outlast her with all the trades, though I'm not sold on it.)
Thoughts? It wasn't a very good Sheik tbh; landings weren't the problem they should have been.
I had thought about that, but then realized it's true for all of his bombs, and even moreso for Meteor Bomb. How important to landing is his bombs? GBs alone won't assist in this much, because we don't have time to cook them before it's time to feed the ninja again. It's really my only worry. So far.The strategy makes sense in some ways, but I could see Sheik using that against you, especially if the Sheik opts to not pursue you mid combo and rather let the bomb explode on you after a fthrow (for example), Sheik can bouncing fish the aftermath of the explosion and deal more damage.
I wouldn't call Link's frame data bad in terms of anything but startup, overall he only has two frames less landing lag than Sheik which is actually godlike considering the power in his aerials. I also wouldn't call his combo game poor, if you look into it its actually pretty damn good considering the type of character he is (zoner)I think I can contribute a little to his.
As stated Shiek is far and away Link's worst matchup, being the literal opposite of him if you think about it.
Link is a slow heavy disjoint character with few true combos, a lot of setup, downright bad frame data (by comparison) and a surprising amount of kill potential in his move set.
Shiek is a fast light brawler with a lot of true combos, less overall setup (I only say because Link can setup off of almost all his moves), god tier frame data, and an underwhelming kill potential.
Of all the traits we have to deal with the most it's Shiek's raw speed and frame advantage over Link, she can punish almost everything we do in the right conditions and with the right prediction. Because of this she beats us hard in neutral and forces us to play with caution as a single grounded bow or wiffed tilt can lead to strings from one side of the stage to the other ending with a fish kick to death because we have a predictable if reliable recovery.
What I've done to avoid that, though I'm by no means an expert and what I say is entirely my opinion backed up by my perception and game time, is to limit her movement, in my case I always have a bomb ready and I constantly keep a Gale out to push her in the position of having to dodge and move around a maze of hitboxes to get to the soft squishy Link at the center. In the process I watch how the player moves and as the match progresses I just adapt the wall of Gales and bombs to match their movements, it's by no means optimal, and if shiek get's through I have to get her out fast, usually by throwing out a tilt on a read or just jabing to get her off for a second and going to the air as we still have a fast, and strong aerial in our nair and shiek fears our fair because it can off her at eighty from midstage with rage and is pretty much a confirmed kill at edge with rage. Thankfully because we have such massive kill power any Shiek that doesn't respect it will often get reckless and fall for a lose f tilt or even a solid bomb to dash attack or faair. For the smart ones it's best to keep her spaced since nothing she has is a true disjoint save possibly uair, which means constant cat and mouse is the name of the game.
Alternatively you can try going HAM and just pounding at Shiek until it dies or breaks your offensive.
Above all I think the biggest thing we have to do is maintain focus and watch our transitions from ranged camping to melee as we lack a truly safe way to do this outside of bombsliding into the target.
Thanks for the input.I wouldn't call Link's frame data bad in terms of anything but startup, overall he only has two frames less landing lag than Sheik which is actually godlike considering the power in his aerials. I also wouldn't call his combo game poor, if you look into it its actually pretty damn good considering the type of character he is (zoner)
Other than that this is pretty spot on, the way Sheik operates is insanely hard to deal with as Link. I personally
If you can consistently keep up a wall as well as use his combos its going to be a lot more effective since some of the payoff for his combos are huge. Soft dair -> bounce -> soft dair -> bounce -> dair spike is a true combo that can potentially kill extremely earlyThanks for the input.
I really don't try much for combos with Link, I fin that just keeping up his wall does enough dammage.
Wait what? By bounce do you mean like a Pogo stick? Because you are really only going to get two of those and if you can get a third it won't spike. From 0-10% Sheik can shield before the 2nd hit. From 15-25 Sheik can DI down and away from Link to avoid or shield the 2nd hit. From 30% and above Dair will bounce her too hard and the second hit won't connect.Soft dair -> bounce -> soft dair -> bounce -> dair spike is a true combo that can potentially kill extremely early
Yeah I debunked this a while ago. He must have watched the video of misinformation and then not read my post about it, both of which can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/link-social-the-triforce-of-doin-work.370194/page-365#post-20915938Wait what? By bounce do you mean like a Pogo stick? Because you are really only going to get two of those and if you can get a third it won't spike. From 0-10% Sheik can shield before the 2nd hit. From 15-25 Sheik can DI down and away from Link to avoid or shield the 2nd hit. From 30% and above Dair will bounce her too hard and the second hit won't connect.
With no DI from 15-25 the two hits will connect but the second will pop her up as it will connect at the hilt. If timed perfectly one can combo into an Up-B which the counter reads as true but I am not sure that it is, I didn't look too far into it.