Shield Pressure Frame Data

[KirbyKaze]

SHIELD PRESSURE DATA

I'm really bored. Let's see where this takes me. Worth noting is that these do not demonstrate realistic pressure strings, because everything is done perfectly. The significance is demonstrating what the windows roughly look like, within a few frames. It's also to show where the shield stun is, and to show (through visuals like colour and crap) where the hitlag and stun are with the various permutations of pressure strings. Use your brain, and take some salt when you look at this. One grain will be insufficient. I suggest three.

Green = Stun
Red = No Stun

Style and colour scheme is shamelessly ripped from the other shield pressure guide. Wasn't sure if I should bump it. If a Mod or whatever wants to move this there, great. If not, whatever.

Nair Shine Variants

All chains assume frame perfection in SHFF timing and perfect jumps out of Shine. Nairs come in many shapes and sizes. This covers two extremes and the closest thing we get to a middle.

Near-Identical Middle Split (8 / 7 split)

01 Shine hitlag
02 hitlag
03 hitlag
04 hitlag
05
06
07 Jump start
08
09
10 (airborne 01) -- (air time for perfect SHFF is 15 frames)
11 (airborne 02)
12 (airborne 03)
13 (airborne 04)
14 (airborne 05) start Nair (1)
15 (airborne 06) start Nair (2)
16 (airborne 07) start Nair (3)
17 (airborne 08) Nair hits (4) Stun 1 - 7 ~ All hitlag occurs here
18 (airborne 09) Stun - 8
19 (airborne 10) Stun - 9
20 (airborne 11) Stun - 10
21 (airborne 12) Stun - 11
22 (airborne 13) Stun - 12
23 (airborne 14) Stun - 13
24 (airborne 15) Stun - 14
25 Land, L-cancel
26 L-cancel
27 L-cancel
28 L-cancel
29 L-cancel
30 L-cancel
31 L-cancel
32 Shine

Earliest Nair Possible (4 / 11 split)

01 Shine hitlag
02 hitlag
03 hitlag
04 hitlag
05
06
07 Jump start
08
09
10 (airborne 01) -- (air time for perfect SHFF is 15 frames) start Nair (1)
11 (airborne 02) start Nair (2)
12 (airborne 03) start Nair (3)
13 (airborne 04) Nair hits (4) Stun 1 - 7 ~ All hitlag occurs here
14 (airborne 05) Stun - 8
15 (airborne 06) Stun - 9
16 (airborne 07) Stun - 10
17 (airborne 08) Stun - 11
18 (airborne 09) Stun - 12
19 (airborne 10) Stun - 13
20 (airborne 11) Stun - 14
21 (airborne 12)
22 (airborne 13)
23 (airborne 14)
24 (airborne 15)
25 Land, L-cancel
26 L-cancel
27 L-cancel
28 L-cancel
29 L-cancel
30 L-cancel
31 L-cancel
32 Shine

Latest Nair Possible (15 middle)

01 Shine hitlag
02 hitlag
03 hitlag
04 hitlag
05
06
07 Jump start
08
09
10 (airborne 01) -- (air time for perfect SHFF is 15 frames)
11 (airborne 02)
12 (airborne 03)
13 (airborne 04)
14 (airborne 05)
15 (airborne 06)
16 (airborne 07)
17 (airborne 08)
18 (airborne 09)
19 (airborne 10)
20 (airborne 11)
21 (airborne 12)
22 (airborne 13)
23 (airborne 14)
24 (airborne 15) Nair hits (4) Stun 1 - 7 ~ All hitlag occurs here
25 L-cancel Stun - 8
26 L-cancel Stun - 9
27 L-cancel Stun - 10
28 L-cancel Stun - 11
29 L-cancel Stun - 12
30 L-cancel Stun - 13
31 L-cancel Stun - 14
32 Shine

Dair Shine

Assumes frame perfection in SHFF timing and perfect jumps out of Shine. Something worth noting is that this model assumes you do the Dair frame perfectly, which means a perfectly fast falled SHFFL Dair produces 4 hits, opposed to 3. I haven't calculated what the difference between the 3 hit chain and the 4 hit chain looks like. Not sure if I will.

01 Shine hitlag
02 hitlag
03 hitlag
04 hitlag
05
06
07 Jump start (1)
08 (2)
09 (3)
10 Airborne, Dair start (01)
11 (02)
12 (03)
13 (04)
14 (05) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
15 (06) Stun – 5
16 (07) Stun – 6
17 (08) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
18 (09) Stun – 5
19 (10) Stun – 6
20 (11) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
21 (12) Stun – 5
22 (13) Stun – 6
23 (14) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
24 (15) Stun – 5
25 Land, L-cancel (1) Stun – 6
26 (2) Stun – 7
27 (3)
28 (4)
29 (5)
30 (6)
31 (7)
32 (8)
33 (9)
34 Shine

Bair is in the other thread.

Resources used:
SuperDoodleMan (SDM) frame data, just google it if you really want it
Seanson Hitbox System, mostly for verifying SDM's stuff, it's somewhere in Melee Discussion
Phanna's shield stun, hitlag crap

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The return of the dair shine shield pressure. 06 techs ftw

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nobody will look at this rofl.

I was supposed to use this as my 8000th post but I figured I'll probably get banned or something and have to wait or lose track of time.

 

[Kanelol]

<3<3<3

I was wondering about this earlier

 

[KirbyKaze]

Silence, Falco player.

 

[Charlesz]

Sweet now I can pull off that Mango **** on armada!

 

[Metal Reeper]

I've actually been meaning on posting a thread similar to this, wondering on how to do this, and the frame data, thanks Kirbykaze

 

[Lovage]

your late nair shield pressure is exactly what i had in my head when mango taught this to me a few weeks ago. the two hitstuns of the shine and nair link up but create a bigger space in the middle.

i don't think either early nair shield pressure or late nair shield pressure is better than the other, but to me it's an insanely powerful mixup. by switching from one timing of nair to the other your opponent's oos timings get FUKED, and it takes most people a really long time to figure out how to get out when you keep changing your pressure timings.

i think thats dat 2012 sht when people are gonna be able to correctly mixup their pressure strings as well as read how they're being pressured and know the best way to get out.

this is why playing mango for the first time is such a frustrating experience. it's not just "the mango effect," it has a lot to do with him playing outside your comfortable timings. it's really easy to feel this when he has you in your shield (90% of the game) because he really has a sense for how you want to escape, and he knows what to do to totally c0ckblock you

 

[MaNg0]

why the *** do you make threads like this

i dont even understand


haha

 

[mastermoo420]

I think Mango searches his name because he came in right when Lovage talked about him.

 

[skrach8]

awesome thread, now if there was something like this for every character.

More information like this never really hurt, heck.... it could only help.

FRAME PERFECT PLAYERS? maybe...............?

 

[KirbyKaze]

The only point of this is to show roughly where the vulnerabilities are in different shield pressure variations and how big the gaps are.

That's it.

Other characters suck and don't have strings like this, except Falco, where everything is already made and calculated for him because of the existence of Mogwai, SCOTU, and a few others. And Peach, I guess, but her strings are different and have too many variations (float heights, etc.) for making exact calculations to be worth anything at all.

 

[skrach8]

i bet i can keep you in your shield, and i play marth.... get me!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Raynex posting:

I love this thread.


Now if only we could all perform perfect shield pressure at will.

 

[D1]

This thread is a nice thread! *saves*

 

[Roman.]

so if i'm reading this correctly, shine hitlag on the shield is 9 frames?

 

[Kyu Puff]

Shine hitlag is 4 frames, hitstun is 8 frames.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i bet i can keep you in your shield, and i play marth.... get me!

I will get you

 

[Roman.]

I will get you

i miss you

 

[jugfingers]

so basically what your saying is that perfect dairshine shield pressure is unstoppable.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Is it unstoppable? If it has a 7 dead frames after the d-air couldn't some characters shield grab it? I actually have a question about that:

Pillaring (w/ dair):
Shine puts +2 advantage after jump, drill comes out on frame 5, and has a 3 frame disadvantage.
Drill lands w/ 4 frames of shield lag (past the hitstun on the drill), so after l-canceling (9 frames) you have a 5 frame disadvantage.

Is it a 5 frame disadvantage or a 7 frame disadvantage?

 

[Nø Ca$h]

im pretty sure u can shine oos in the 7 frames opening from the dair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there are many quick OoS options that you can do in 7 frames.

 

[Kyu Puff]

That's why it's important to know whether it's 5 frames or 7 frames...

 

[Falcinho]

Why even bother about how big the window is for dair-shine-pillaring, when you can easily shield DI away to grab (or whatever)?

 

[Kyu Puff]

If they d-air deep into your shield, shield di usually won't get you out of shine range. Not all grabs can outrange it anyway, and it would be easier to just press A.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you shield SDI you can go much farther than fox can.

 

[KirbyKaze]

so basically what your saying is that perfect dairshine shield pressure is unstoppable.

Not at all.

Why even bother about how big the window is for dair-shine-pillaring, when you can easily shield DI away to grab (or whatever)?

Because it might be worth initiating shield pressure with Dair Shine, when people aren't ready to shield DI immediately. Also it gives insight into your relative safety when you're behind someone.

 

[Falcinho]

Of course if get what you meant, i rather was responding to the posts before mine.

And imo its not hard at all to react to (multihit)-drill-shine shieldpressure,
i think it would even be enough if you just ASDI (so you dont have to SDI, just hold the stick)

But maybe that's because I've been playing Pasi for 3 years now and I'm biased =P

 

[Nø Ca$h]

if ur shield gets daired by falco u should shine oos>thunder>grab/upsmash/ect. if a fox dairs u its much easier to shield sdi it cuz the multi hit.

 

[Kyu Puff]

17 (airborne 08) Nair hits (4) Stun 1 - 7 ~ All hitlag occurs here

When you say "all hitlag occurs here," can you ignore the hitlag like that? In other words, does Fox fall during the hitlag or just stay frozen in the air?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

during hitlag both characters freeze for the same amount of time. No animations proceed and no gravity or momentum happens. The only thing that can cause movement is SDI during those frames.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When you say "all hitlag occurs here," can you ignore the hitlag like that? In other words, does Fox fall during the hitlag or just stay frozen in the air?

Yes, I'm perfect, don't question me.

 

[Kyu Puff]

nvm i figured it out already

 

[omgwtfToph]

I don't usually do this, but ****ing bump, because I just spend 15 minutes looking for this thread before finally finding it via Google. Before this post, you couldn't look at this thread from the main Fox board o_O

someone should sticky this **** btw haha

and for the record the reason I was looking for this thread is I wanted to see how safe it is to drill -> shine somebody's shield... cuz it seems like you get shieldgrabbed pretty often for it (there's no such thing as a "early" or "late" drill after all, same **** lol)

 

[KirbyKaze]

no shut up why didn't you let this thread dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

it's all been outdated by az canceling anyway

 

[shadrach kabango]

someone should sticky this **** btw haha

qft

and for the record the reason I was looking for this thread is I wanted to see how safe it is to drill -> shine somebody's shield... cuz it seems like you get shieldgrabbed pretty often for it (there's no such thing as a "early" or "late" drill after all, same **** lol)

really? could you elaborate?

thanks for this kk

 

[shadrach kabango]

wasnt there another shield pressure thread? having trouble finding it.

i want to know if you can jump out of double shine (fox and falco's) pressure.