Repository of the Silencing Arts: Lists of Greninja Kill Percents [Forward Smash Percents Added] WIP

[KERO]

Welcome to the Repository of the Silencing Arts. Here, we have several lists (two so far) of how early Greninja can potentially kill every character in the game on Final Destination with each level of rage, using no rage as a baseline. Each move tested also had the 1.05 freshness bonus. Each of these tests involved no DI, however, so please be aware of that. Finally, the bolded percents in each list are the highest and lowest percents that an unmodified character will die at for each level (and non-rage). The italicized percents are the highest and lowest percents that a modified character (Shulk) will die at for each level (and non-rage).

The rage levels are based on the initial tests performed to find the kill percents for Upthrow. Here is a short explanation regarding these rage levels: Through testing, I have decided to divide each "level" of rage (and pre-100% non-rage) by how much earlier each kills at. While there is a gradual curve between levels (so, you may kill a couple of percent earlier at 138% as opposed to 121%), I found that generally there was a solid 7-8% difference between each level for most midweights' kill percent. For example, you can assume that an Upthrow at level 2 rage will kill an opponent about 6-9% earlier than an Upthrow at level 1 rage, and an Upthrow at level 3 rage will kill 12-18% earlier than an Upthrow at level 1 rage and 6-9% earlier than an Upthrow at level 2 rage. Thus, I feel it is appropriate the we divide that 6-9% threshold into those three levels.

These levels will remain the same for each list.
For reference, the levels are as follows:
No rage: 0%-39%
Rage starts building at 40%
Pre-100% Rage Level 1 (not included in the lists but follows the established scale): 57%-71%
Pre-100% Rage Level 2 (not included in the lists but follows the established scale): 72%-99%
Rage Level 1: 100%-120%
Rage Level 2: 121%-148%
Rage Level 3: 149%+

With that said, I hope that these lists prove helpful.
Snatch and Fling: A List of Upthrow Kill Percents

As we know, Greninja... doesn't have the easiest time killing. Sure, his Upsmash can kill extremely early, but landing it is a rather risky affair, especially after the 1.0.4 patch. His other kill moves are similarly risky as well with the possible exception of Fair, but even that has trouble killing from center stage. Things would be so much better if we had a throw that could kill like Ness or Villager.

But we do! Recent testing has found that the knockback of Greninja's Upthrow is drastically increased by rage. Now, unless you're facing a Jigglypuff, don't expect to be KOing people before 120% with Upthrow the moment you hit 100%, but as you accumulate damage, the more knockback your Upthrow is going to do!

Anyway, this is extremely important as it gives Greninja a fairly reliable kill option, provided you are at the right percent. After all, by now we all know how to abuse Greninja's wonderful grab range, right? However, do remember that this is slightly situational. It would seem to be in our best interest to play extremely intelligently when we reach these percents. But, enough blabbering, let's get to the meat of this thread: the list.

Here it is:

Changelog:
2015/01/02: Fixed percents for Shulk's Decisive Arts.

Anyway, I hope this list proves helpful. Now, let's get out there and give them yet another reason to fear that Whirlpool!

"That was Diverted to the Substitute!": A List of Upward Substitute Kill Percents (and General Substitute Information)

Haha, look at how terrible this counter move is guys! It's like Brawl Lucario's Double Team but wor- Did that Diddy just die at 72%?!

Yep, for as much fun as others poked at Substitute, some Greninja mains included, research has found that the supposed worst counter in the game can... actually be pretty useful! Now, given that you likely just want to see the list, I will not go too deep into the intricacies of the move, but I will get a couple of basics out of the way.

Substitute is a very interesting counter move. Since we're just covering the upward direction here, we will stick with that. Generally, however, Substitute assigns a target for Greninja to hit when the move is. If Greninja is within range of the opponent that activated the Substitute, the exact position of that opponent when his or her hitbox activated the Substitute becomes the target assigned. The range in order for this to be the case is about the length of an uncharged Luma Shot from the opponent in any direction. Substitute will always make the opponent the target as long as Greninja is within that range, no matter if Substitute is activated via a disjoint, projectile, or regular attack. Otherwise, if Greninja is hit out of this range, the assigned target is the hitbox the moment it activated the Substitute rather than the opponent. Important Note: If against Rosalina, Luma activates the Sub when Greninja is in range to target Rosalina, he will target Rosalina rather than Luma, regardless of whether Luma and Rosalina are separated or not. If Luma hits Greninja and Greninja is outside of that range, however, he will target the Luma's hitbox but not the Luma itself. Now, this obviously creates an issue with more mobile characters, specifically those that are more adept in the air as often Greninja may completely miss them as he appears where they were rather than where they traveled to in the short delay. Generally, if they don't have good horizontal airspeed, though, upward and downward Substitutes still are fantastic options to go for.

One more thing before we talk about the list itself. Upward Substitute, along with its downward counterpart, are tied for the fastest way to hit an opponent after activating the Substitute. They both also happen to have the most knockback of any of the directions. However, it should also be noted that downward Substitute spikes if the opponent is in the air.

Finally we get to the list. This list took quite a while to put together due to the reactive nature of Substitute and me being stubborn and wanting to test it all by myself. Midway through, because of the nature of Substitute, I decided to add an extra little something to this list in particular. For every character, I tested three things, one of which is not at all associated with upward Substitute and will be moved to the appropriate list when it is eventually created. All of these smaller tests revolve around each character's jab, which tends to be the fastest move with the lowest amount of cool-down for each character (if anyone can bring exceptions to my attention, I'd be glad to test those as well). Basically, I had each character jab to activate the Substitute and tried one of three things: 1. Can they shield afterward (S)? 2. Can they hit Greninja out of upward Substitute with a continuation of jab (H) or even delay it slightly to do so (DH) (Hit and Delayed Hit respectively)? 3. If the jab is continued, will a downward Substitute his them in the direction Greninja was facing when Substitute was inputted or will they be sent in the opposite direction (O)? The results of each of these tests was included next to each character's name in the order that I just discussed them in. For the Mii Characters, since end lag is determined by their height, I included their findings after the list proper.

So, let's get to that list:

Mii Brawler (small) (S) (H) (O)

Mii Brawler (medium) (S) (H) (O)

Mii Brawler (tall) (S) (H)

Mii Swordfighter (small) (S) (DH)

Mii Swordfighter (medium) (S) (DH)

Mii Swordfighter (tall) (S) (DH)

Mii Gunner (small) (S) (DH) (delayed O)

Mii Gunner (medium) (DH)

Mii Gunner (tall) (H) (O)

Changelog:
2015/01/02: Fixed percents for Shulk's Decisive Arts.

Once again, I hope this list proves helpful in our quest to secure that ever so necessary KO! Now, let's get out there and make them realize the appearance of this:

is no laughing matter.

Spinblocking the Gods: A List of Shadow Sneak Kill Percents (WIP)

I do not intend to go too deep into the mechanics of Shadow Sneak, but I will note that Shadow Sneak has two distinctive attacks: the backflip, which does 10% but less knockback then the other variation but has more overall range and the back kick, which does 12% and more knockback than Fsmash but with less range. The backflip comes out if Greninja is facing his opponent when he reappears while the back kick comes out when he has his back to his opponent when he reappears. However, both of these are assuming Greninja is within range of the opponent. If Greninja is not in range, he will always backflip when he reappears unless you hold the opposite direction that Greninja is facing, which will prompt a back kick instead. However, there is a way to circumvent this a little. If you turn around right before you let go of the Shadow Sneak, Greninja will teleport opposite of the direction he is facing which essentially allows him to back kick where he would've backflipped, etc., except if there is no opponent in range, in which case he will still backflip unless you press the direction opposite of where he faces when he reappears. One more thing, it's important to note that there is a minimum distance that the shadow must move before Greninja can actually use the move. However, this is also a blessing as much as it is a curse as it gives us just enough time to turn Greninja around if we want to use the back kick over the backflip.

Finally, aside from damage, knockback, and range differences, both Shadow Sneaks are identical frame wise.

Without further ado, let's move on to those lists!

From Center of FD (Backflip)

From Center of FD (Back Kick)

Decisive Blades: A List of Up Smash Kill Percents

Here it is! One of the most powerful smashes in the games, one of the most satisfying moves to land in Greninja's repertoire! Usmash is a favorite of many Greninjas, and despite its nerf in the 1.0.4 patch, Greninjas still get plenty of use out of this move. Coming out frame 12 (with the second hit coming out frame 18), it's Greninja's fastest Smash attack and easily his most powerful. Anyway, onto the chart.

For this chart, I decided it was important that the chart details the absolute highest percent a Greninja must obtain (per rage level) in order to guarantee a kill from Up Smash. There is about a 3% difference between whether Greninja connects hit one at the tip of the move or inside Greninja's body. Notably, one should add 1-2% to each of these percents for if only the second hit connects. Finally, between rage levels, it should be noted that there is about a 3-5% difference usually, if you wanted to calculate the "pre-rage" percents in your head. Getting these percents was not exactly easy, but I wanted to apologize for my absence with what is one of the more important kill moves that Greninja has. Happy April Fools, everyone!

"Will this Decide it?! OUTTA THERE!": A List of Greninja Forward Smash Kill Percents

Here we have it, Greninja's Forward Smash, easily our best hard punish. Comes out frame 13 (really good for a move this powerful), lasting through frame 15, but it is very important to note that we cannot act until frame 50, giving us 35 frames of endlag, over half a second! Thankfully, it has fantastic range, meaning it can punish laggy long range moves and is in itself difficult to punish without a perfect shield if spaced well despite that end lag. One issue we do have to be aware of when using it is that there IS a blind spot along Greninja's arm with this move, meaning an opponent helpless in the air can fall into us in order to avoid a Forward Smash punish. Note: Oddly enough, this does not apply on the 2D stages (and their respective omegas) Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, and Pac Land.

Like with Shadow Sneak, this list was created by placing a person in the middle of FD, using Fox to rack up damage without moving the opponent, and then launching the opponent with an uncharged fresh Forward Smashes. As such, these percents act more as an expected average kill percent, but do note that depending on stage position these percents can vary wildly. I found that Forward Smash killed up to 33-36% earlier the closer to the blastzone the opponent was on stage from the center kill percents while Greninja can kill up to 26-28% later the farther away from the blast zone the opponent was on stage from the center kill percents. With this information, one should be able to make a fairly good educated guess as to when Greninja's Forward Smash will kill based on one's stage position (for instance, if Greninja is at 0% and halfway between the center and the edge, if Greninja Forward Smashes Mario, Mario should die at around 91-94%). Without further ado, here is that list.

Hey, batta batta batta, swing batta batta batta batta....

The Lists by Themselves:

Upthrow Kill Percents

Upward Substitute Kill Percents

Shadow Sneak Kill Percents

From Center

Backflip

Back Kick

Up Smash Kill Percents

Forward Smash Kill Percents

Once half of a list is completed, it will be added.


Update

Next List: Down Smash Kill Percents (middle of stage).

Projected Date: Mid-July

Forward Smash Percents have been added.

 

[David Galanos]

Really? I think he doesn't have much trouble killing. Yeah he's better at killing off stage with back air and fair but all his smash attacks can kill and shadow sneak is a good kill move too. As long as I'm not throwing them out at random, cause they are punishable, Greninja is great for killing and can kill early with up smash like you said. Up air is a good kill move too sometimes. I just read back and saw you said from center stage, with that I can agree with for the most part, But this is a very helpful thread so thanks

 

[Eddy]

Nice work! really useful

 

[tofu951753]

Idk how useful this is, but for many characters, sourspot nair > usmash kos at 83% (minus a few % for lighter chars and plus a few % for heavier chars)

idk if u can di out of it, but sourspot nair > usmash is a true combo in training mode (it probably wasn't escapable before 1.04 with the bigger usmash sweetspot, but it might be di-able in the current patch)

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Can we get the smash moves ASAP as well? Great start!

E: I find Dsmash to be really powerful and a move that my opponent seems to least suspect coming. Definitely has kill potential imo.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

Pardon the noob question, if I don't ask now I wont figure it out for a while. But when you say an attack kills at X% does that mean that is the opponents % before or after you perform the attack? For example, say Uthrow does 7% damage and kills at 150%, does this mean you have to grab the opponent at 150%, and their final % when they die is 157%? Or does it mean you can grab them at 143% and that final 7% is enough to get them to 150% and that is their final% when they die?

Thanks for answering such a beginner question in such a good thread. I am not new to smash in the slightest but some more advanced terminology is still a bit above my head.

 

[Spirst]

I've always seen KO % threads done like your first example in which the number is the minimum value needed for the executed move to KO once the move is done AFTER the number is reached.

 

[AlexAnthonyD]

I've always seen KO % threads done like your first example in which the number is the minimum value needed for the executed move to KO once the move is done AFTER the number is reached.

TY Sir once again, I guess ill just message you directly next time I have a question. This is what I assumed at first, but just wanted to clarify and make sure I wasn't wasting my time getting my opponent to slightly higher %s than required.

 

[KERO]

Yeah, all percents listed are the absolute minimum percents each character can die at (i.e. I grab Mario at 138% on FD when I'm at 100% and he can potentially die from Upthrow). Although, please note that DI can possibly increase any of these values by at most 5% (but on average more like 2% for Upthrow and Upward Sub because of their 90 degree knockback angle).

HUGE EDIT: Turns out I made a big mistake regarding Shulk's Decisive Arts. I believed that they were all the same based on the no changes to jump, but there are tiny percent differences with each. I will remedy that as quickly as possible.

Alright, I got all that sorted out, but jeez, this means Shulk is basically adding an extra fifteen characters to everything I do. I must've not selected his Decisive Arts the first time I messed with them and accidentally led myself to believe there's no difference. Welp, I think I'll go ahead and make his Decisive Arts the lowest priority when releasing lists from now on. Unfortunately, this also prevented me from finishing up the Shadow Sneak 0% kills from the center. I will try and finish them by midnight tonight, though.

Update: Got all the 0% from center stage Shadow Sneak percents done. Thus, we move on to the level 1 rage Shadow Sneaks! Sneak (seriously did not mean to do that) preview for the backward hit of Shadow Sneak at 100%. It kills Mario at 93%! That's a sixteen percent difference between rage and no rage, more than the 13ish percent of Upward Sub but less than the massive 22-24% difference of Upthrow.

BY THE WAY: For those that want to, help on this would be greatly appreciated. As much as I want to help us out with these, realistically, we aren't going to get data really all that fast. If you have any interest in helping me, just PM me and state what you'd like to help me with. It can be what I'm currently working on or an entirely different move. For the sake of consistency, I have a couple of rules that I ask be followed when testing, but they are definitely doable. Any help at all, even if you just feel like doing three characters and quitting, is absolutely appreciated.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Good to know that we have a kill option in up throw. Seeing as i now know that this should be kept fresh, what are our best throw setups for racking damage? I've been doing a lot of standard d-throw to up air most of the time but that's obvious. Do we have anything more technical off of a grab for more damage early on?

 

[KERO]

Just updated with an Up Smash chart! Reef, I personally find that Bthrow is the most reliable for damage past when Uthrow to Uair stops comboing, but you can also get some potential reads off of Dthrow and Fthrow as well.

 

[hewhoamareismyself]

Do you want help updating anything in particular with this patch? I also notice that the upsmash chart is missing standard monados and plain ol' Shulk, is that intentional?

 

[KERO]

Do you want help updating anything in particular with this patch? I also notice that the upsmash chart is missing standard monados and plain ol' Shulk, is that intentional?

Oh... whoops. I use Snagit to capture these from Word and just combine them in one giant png. Thank you so much for catching that (I have all of those recorded haha. Must've been tired when I was capturing them). Thankfully, none of Greninja's moves seemingly got any increased/decreased knockback or damage, so the most I gotta do is go back and get Mewtwo. However, I'd really appreciate help with Fsmash percents if you're up to it!

Alright, got that oversight fixed!

 

[bc1910]

Hey @ Gunla any chance of getting this thread stickied? I think it's so useful, especially the Up Throw kill percents, but it can be annoying to find sometimes because you have to dig through the rest of the forum. I think this thread is good/important enough to be stickied though.

 

[Gunla]

Hey @ Gunla any chance of getting this thread stickied? I think it's so useful, especially the Up Throw kill percents, but it can be annoying to find sometimes because you have to dig through the rest of the forum. I think this thread is good/important enough to be stickied though.

While I've hit my cap for stickies (8 threads), I can freely give a Data Tag to it. (However, since it says WIP, I'll give it a Work In Progress tag. @ KERO , how goes progress on this?)

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Superb thread

 

[KERO]

While I've hit my cap for stickies (8 threads), I can freely give a Data Tag to it. (However, since it says WIP, I'll give it a Work In Progress tag. @ KERO , how goes progress on this?)

I have half of the Fsmash percents finished actually (I'll add what I have so far soon). I actually got someone else to help me with this now, so once they get up to speed on the process, we should be able to get through things like Fair and Dsmash fairly quickly.

 

[Dooms]

I have half of the Fsmash percents finished actually (I'll add what I have so far soon). I actually got someone else to help me with this now, so once they get up to speed on the process, we should be able to get through things like Fair and Dsmash fairly quickly.

I can help if you want (especially since I'm using Greninja more now). If you give me an idea of what I need to do to test these things, I can also go through the process on a move as well.

Thanks for making these lists, Kero! Posting here so I get the sub to the thread. :x

 

[PokemonyeWest]

In hopes I could help get more kill percents, I did minor testing with Fair's kill percents. I'm on a 3DS so I'm not able to test things like Shulk's monado arts so if someone (cough @ KERO ) would be so kind...

Anyway, the way I tested this was to set the cpu to jump, reset training mode so their position would be default, and then I set them to jump and then to stop. It doesn't matter if the opponent is airborne or not. With vectoring, I think some of these percents might change. So, I apologize for half-assing it.

Forward Air kill percents (default stage placement, FD)

(no rage) (tested on Level 9 computers) (except for Shulk, who kept switching to Jump Monado after being hit. Shulk tested on Level 3 computer.) (CPU Behavior set to Jump and then Stop for all tests)

Mario/Dr. Mario 135%
Luigi 135%
Peach 130%
Bowser 156% (Highest)
Yoshi 142%
Rosalina & Luma 122%
Bowser Jr. 139%
Wario 143%
Mr. Game and Watch 118%
Donkey Kong 154%
Diddy Kong 130%
Link 139%
Zelda 125%
Sheik 124%
Ganondorf 143%
Toon Link 132%
Samus 144%
Zero Suit Samus 121%
Pit/Dark Pit 134%
Palutena 129%
Marth/Lucina 129%
Ike 141%
RObin 132%
Kirby 122%
King Dedede 147%
Meta Knight 121%
Little Mac 122%
Fox 118%
Falco 122%
Pikachu 122%
Charizard 146%
Lucario 135%
Jigglypuff 116% (Lowest)
Greninja 129%
Duck Hunt 130%
R.O.B. 144%
Ness 133%
Captain Falcon 138%
Villager 135%
Olimar/Alph 122%
Wii Fit Trainer 133% (not accounting for Deep Breathing)
Shulk 137% (Vanilla Shulk, no Monado Arts tested)
Pac Man 134%
Mega Man 138%
Sonic 132%

 

[KERO]

In hopes I could help get more kill percents, I did minor testing with Fair's kill percents. I'm on a 3DS so I'm not able to test things like Shulk's monado arts so if someone (cough @ KERO ) would be so kind...

Anyway, the way I tested this was to set the cpu to jump, reset training mode so their position would be default, and then I set them to jump and then to stop. It doesn't matter if the opponent is airborne or not. With vectoring, I think some of these percents might change. So, I apologize for half-assing it.

Forward Air kill percents (default stage placement, FD)

(no rage) (tested on Level 9 computers) (except for Shulk, who kept switching to Jump Monado after being hit. Shulk tested on Level 3 computer.) (CPU Behavior set to Jump and then Stop for all tests)

Mario/Dr. Mario 135%
Luigi 135%
Peach 130%
Bowser 156% (Highest)
Yoshi 142%
Rosalina & Luma 122%
Bowser Jr. 139%
Wario 143%
Mr. Game and Watch 118%
Donkey Kong 154%
Diddy Kong 130%
Link 139%
Zelda 125%
Sheik 124%
Ganondorf 143%
Toon Link 132%
Samus 144%
Zero Suit Samus 121%
Pit/Dark Pit 134%
Palutena 129%
Marth/Lucina 129%
Ike 141%
RObin 132%
Kirby 122%
King Dedede 147%
Meta Knight 121%
Little Mac 122%
Fox 118%
Falco 122%
Pikachu 122%
Charizard 146%
Lucario 135%
Jigglypuff 116% (Lowest)
Greninja 129%
Duck Hunt 130%
R.O.B. 144%
Ness 133%
Captain Falcon 138%
Villager 135%
Olimar/Alph 122%
Wii Fit Trainer 133% (not accounting for Deep Breathing)
Shulk 137% (Vanilla Shulk, no Monado Arts tested)
Pac Man 134%
Mega Man 138%
Sonic 132%

While I greatly appreciate the effort, and these are definitely good ball-park percents for that stage position, especially as our Fair is often a little stale, because of how moves stale in Smash 4, most moves never do their 1x damage/knockback seen in Training mode (rather, the closest they get is 0.98x after one use of Fair and then 8 uses of other moves, if I'm understanding stale move negation correctly). Thus, a lot of this is probably about 1% off from a fully fresh Fair connecting at that position on the stage.

Another thing to note is that the 3DS blastzones are larger on most stages compared to the Wii U version. Although, as this still may be useful to 3DS players, I may include it in the Fair section once we get to that (I am planning on Dsmash after Fsmash is finished, but Fair may come after that).

 

[FullMoon]

We have the kill % of our most important move now:

 

[l_wan]

This guide is really making me think about picking up Greninja.