Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
Combos, frame traps, set-ups, thoughts on custom moves etc. No nonsense. Just data and facts, What works and how to do it.
Let's go.
Neutral Game strategy
Main neutral game tools are D-tilt, f-tilt, jab, Nair, Fair(yes, it's still good just no longer an all purpose tool) and Dancing Blade. D-tilt has solid range, speed and damage. On block if they roll you get Dancing Blade punish, BUT your reactions must be godlike and you need to be fast. Harder then it was in Brawl since DB is slower and rolls seem to be slightly faster, but still definitely possible. If it's spot dodged you can more than likely just do another or SH Fair and retreat to maintain control without committing, or roll away if you are scared.
F-tilt is strong defensively. Pivot f-tilt is so easy its..its *yawn* ZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZz...yeah...THAT easy. Do it. Love it. Fast characters can punish on block like Sheik, but its tough and they need to be perfect. Very strong anti-air. Space this well or you will get shield grabbed for free. Pivot f-tilt is also strong for resetting spacing.
Jab is...jab. Fast, easy to use. Fairly safe on block. Good arc for covering opponents options. Good for defense or covering yourself. Pretty safe on whiff as well. Decent anti-air.
Nair is what you want if you want to go aggressive with your bulldogging(aggressive space control) Has the least amount of recovery on their aerials. This does not finish it's animation in the air unlike fair, uair and bair. So you really should just SHFF Nair. FF as the second hit comes out and watch your spacing. Jabbing after this is pretty legit and d-tilt if you really want to apply pressure. Any pressure you attempt will NOT be very tight. If you force a roll then reset your spacing and keep pushing your opponent back. But really you want to wait a split second to see what your opponent will do. When spaced well though a poke after Nair is fairly safe, just dont get predictable.
SH Fair is solid. Allows you to stay in control and hop over other characters d-tilts while applying pressure. Space it well and DO NOT FAST FALL IT!!! Only time you do that is when your opponent is wide open. SH Fair still has a use in the neutral game due to Marth/Lucinas great aerial mobility and the arc of the attack. It shuts down alot of low pokes and dash in attacks while still letting you maintain control and spacing.
Dancing Blade is fine. WATCH THEIR VECTOR AS YOU HIT THEM!!! Marth especially. His Up versions have alot of hit stun when they tipper. As long as you watch your opponent and delay the inputs you can nail all the up hits consistently. It was only at higher percents that I struggled to get all the hits. We are talking over 120% and that was vs light to mid-weight characters. This is your main punish, combo tool and even footsie tool. If you know when your opponent likes to poke, try throwing out the first hit of DB. It's transcendent so if you hit a limb your option should beat theirs. Then you can hitconfirm into the rest of the hits. Seriously it has alot of hitstun with Marth. Less with Lucina but this strategy is still viable with her. You just have to be faster.
General Flow
Here are some general tips/advice to speed up your gameplay and help you get a feel for his fundamental strategy.
- Walk alot. You have all your options available. Marth has the fastest walk speed in the game. Remember that. He can walk faster than some characters can even run. Be calm. Be patient. Be in control. Get used to being on the ground.
- Run into shield is a good way to close ground and be somewhat safe if you penetrate someones zone, but you are unsure of yourself. Just remember that a shield drop is 8 frames. That's awhile.
- Do not whiff alot of SH aerials. Marth isn't a brickwalling character in this game in the same vein as his older incarnations. He does wall people, but your goal is to strike a shield or draw out a roll/spot dodge. Whiffing buttons to bait people isn't really viable with him in this game.
- Short Hop to adjust spacing. This allows you to be pro-active with spacing and reactive with your options if you get attacked.
- Full Hop Fair is Marth's best walling tool. Get used to it.
- SH Bair is very nice and can be done even in the opening dash animation. Very easy to space and DI as it comes out to maintain maximum safety and space control. Try dashing > turn around > instant SH Bair. It feels really good and has a nice arc.
- Dolphin Slash is a nice punish. Still very fast start-up with decent knockback. If you block anything, and your opponent is close, let it rip. Only do it when your opponent is around 30% or higher otherwise you may get punished on hit.
- Jab is your fastest button at 4 frames. Use it to shut down quick dash in attempts or as an anti air vs short hop approaches.
- F-tilt kills at tipper around 115%. Safe vs all but the fastest characters. Great anti air. Decent poke. Good move. Use it.
- Dealing with opponents who possess strong rushdown is difficult but not impossible. Dash back pivot ftilt and dsah back pivot grab are very strong vs that fighting style. It will require great reaction and patience but one well placed pivot grab can turn the tide and let you stay in control. Jabs are also great due to their speed and coverage.
- D-throw to Uair is your main combo. After you land it, transition into a trap scenario where you are trying to draw out the air dodge then punish. From there you want to reset the trap or transition to a different trap. If you can't maintain that then allow it to reset to neutral. DO NOT OVER COMMIT i.e double jump fair and ignore your spacing so your opponent just fast fall airdodges through you and lands safely on the ground.
- Your general goal is to push your opponent back towards the ledge. Gain ground and stage control, while not giving up any. Make them respect your pokes and punish mistakes/poor decisions with confidence.
- How you achieve the goal will change according to the match. Some chars outrange you but you move faster on the ground or the air. Some chars are faster, but you have more range or more killing power. Assess each match and recognize where your strengths lie and approach the match accordingly.
Combos
Combos really are just throw set-ups into Dolphin Slash or Crescent Slash. D-throw, Dolphin slash works at basically any percent from 0 to around 110ish depending on who you are fighting, but its not safe on hit until the higher percents so be aware of that. F-throw, Crescent Slash works at low percents and seems pretty safe. D-throw to Uair works at very low percents. Honestly I dont think it works past 10% but I need to test more.
Throw Set-ups
This is what Marth has alot of. Throws naturally put your opponent where you want them. F-throw and B-throw for edge guard set-ups. U-throw/D-throw for air traps. Dancing Blade up version pops them up as well. D-tilt is a natural trap move. On hit it can lead to several options, but nothing is guaranteed so you have to be sure to watch your opponent and pick up on habits.
Traps
Ledge Traps are the same since Melee. Space yourself outside of their ledge attack and you have effectively covered 90% of your opponents options. If they do something stupid punish them. Remember that regrabbing the ledge doesnt reset invincibility. If they do that, ATTACK THEM.
D-tilt Trap In-depth
By abusing D-tilts IASA frames or "interruptible As Soon As" its possible to create very tight traps that are difficult to escape. If this move is shielded, spot dodged or rolled away from Marth/Lucina remain in a strong position to punish or remain in control. Spot dodge is a free almost any punish you want granted you are fast enough to react. Roll behind means grab or Dancing Blade. Shielded means you can do another, Shield Breaker, dash grab or simply...wait. More then likely your opponent will roll. Roll away you can punish with dash dancing blade but only those with the fastest of reaction times will get this punish consistently. If they shield drop and attempt to attack you can just AA them with f-tilt or f-smash if you want the stock and they have enough percent. YOU MUST MASTER THE D-TILT TRAP OR YOU WILL NEVER SUCCEED AT HIGH LEVEL WITH THESE TWO CHARACTERS.
Air/Juggle Traps
Air dodge is worse, but aerials have more recovery. Chasing with Uair to force an airdodge and then fast falling works well. When you land, chase down with a grab or dancing Blade. Your success will vary depending on the character you are fighting. If you have Dashing Assault then you can easily chase down opponents who have moved further away from your zone of control. This is good because the attack pushes your opponent onto the ledge for ledge trapping. Flowing from one trap to another is a core part of Marth's metagame. Going for a d-tilt trap upon an opponents landing is a strong way to remain in control without committing. D-throw is strong for setting up aerial/landing traps since it has the least recovery.
Dealing with Projectiles
Pretty simple stuff really. Powershield works like Brawl and when done correctly you will see a red spark radiate from where an attack struck your shield. You can shield drop with less frames, making advancing much easier. You can also SH airdodge and land without the horrible recovery if you air dodge immediately. Marth/Lucina dash low enough that they can go under high projectiles. They can also easily swat projectiles with their sword, fanning them away. Counter is also good to use occasionally for aggressive projectile zoners that try to use their options to limit you and close in. Focus and stay patient. Projectile zoning wins by breaking down the player mentally and getting them to fall into baits and traps. Don't lose your cool. You have all the tools to deal with it.
Kill set-ups
At kill percents of around 100% Marth has two different set-ups that are fairly reliable. One is grounded grab release the other is out of Dancing Blade. Grab release is easy. After a grab simply keep pummeling your opponent. They will eventually break out. At that point a stutter step F-smash will usually do the trick for you to net a tipper. You may have to dash towards your opponent or away. Depends on the spacing. This set-up can't be abused really since any defensive action will stop it from working, but if you are fighting someone you know likes to hit buttons, this set-up works well as your f-smash will blow through them. Doesn't work vs chars with very long reaching quick normals like little mac and his f-tilt. (3 frames)
The other set-up that is more reliable is the Dancing Blade juggle set-up. After the first hit of DB up version, stop attacking and wait. If your opponent stays in place go for the tipper. you may have to stutter step in either direction. If they try to jump then you can go for a trap. If they try to attack, then you can usually block on reaction then punish. I like this set-up alot because it gives you alot of options and since your opponent is in the air, you have alot of control over the situation. Even if you can't get a kill, you still have advantage.
Remember the set-up is DB(1) > DBUP(2) > stop and wait a split second.
Both Shaya and Eternal vouch for this set-up as well, so that speaks for it's consistency.
Updated: 11/27/2014
Let's go.
Neutral Game strategy
Main neutral game tools are D-tilt, f-tilt, jab, Nair, Fair(yes, it's still good just no longer an all purpose tool) and Dancing Blade. D-tilt has solid range, speed and damage. On block if they roll you get Dancing Blade punish, BUT your reactions must be godlike and you need to be fast. Harder then it was in Brawl since DB is slower and rolls seem to be slightly faster, but still definitely possible. If it's spot dodged you can more than likely just do another or SH Fair and retreat to maintain control without committing, or roll away if you are scared.
F-tilt is strong defensively. Pivot f-tilt is so easy its..its *yawn* ZZZZzzzzzzzzzZZZz...yeah...THAT easy. Do it. Love it. Fast characters can punish on block like Sheik, but its tough and they need to be perfect. Very strong anti-air. Space this well or you will get shield grabbed for free. Pivot f-tilt is also strong for resetting spacing.
Jab is...jab. Fast, easy to use. Fairly safe on block. Good arc for covering opponents options. Good for defense or covering yourself. Pretty safe on whiff as well. Decent anti-air.
Nair is what you want if you want to go aggressive with your bulldogging(aggressive space control) Has the least amount of recovery on their aerials. This does not finish it's animation in the air unlike fair, uair and bair. So you really should just SHFF Nair. FF as the second hit comes out and watch your spacing. Jabbing after this is pretty legit and d-tilt if you really want to apply pressure. Any pressure you attempt will NOT be very tight. If you force a roll then reset your spacing and keep pushing your opponent back. But really you want to wait a split second to see what your opponent will do. When spaced well though a poke after Nair is fairly safe, just dont get predictable.
SH Fair is solid. Allows you to stay in control and hop over other characters d-tilts while applying pressure. Space it well and DO NOT FAST FALL IT!!! Only time you do that is when your opponent is wide open. SH Fair still has a use in the neutral game due to Marth/Lucinas great aerial mobility and the arc of the attack. It shuts down alot of low pokes and dash in attacks while still letting you maintain control and spacing.
Dancing Blade is fine. WATCH THEIR VECTOR AS YOU HIT THEM!!! Marth especially. His Up versions have alot of hit stun when they tipper. As long as you watch your opponent and delay the inputs you can nail all the up hits consistently. It was only at higher percents that I struggled to get all the hits. We are talking over 120% and that was vs light to mid-weight characters. This is your main punish, combo tool and even footsie tool. If you know when your opponent likes to poke, try throwing out the first hit of DB. It's transcendent so if you hit a limb your option should beat theirs. Then you can hitconfirm into the rest of the hits. Seriously it has alot of hitstun with Marth. Less with Lucina but this strategy is still viable with her. You just have to be faster.
General Flow
Here are some general tips/advice to speed up your gameplay and help you get a feel for his fundamental strategy.
- Walk alot. You have all your options available. Marth has the fastest walk speed in the game. Remember that. He can walk faster than some characters can even run. Be calm. Be patient. Be in control. Get used to being on the ground.
- Run into shield is a good way to close ground and be somewhat safe if you penetrate someones zone, but you are unsure of yourself. Just remember that a shield drop is 8 frames. That's awhile.
- Do not whiff alot of SH aerials. Marth isn't a brickwalling character in this game in the same vein as his older incarnations. He does wall people, but your goal is to strike a shield or draw out a roll/spot dodge. Whiffing buttons to bait people isn't really viable with him in this game.
- Short Hop to adjust spacing. This allows you to be pro-active with spacing and reactive with your options if you get attacked.
- Full Hop Fair is Marth's best walling tool. Get used to it.
- SH Bair is very nice and can be done even in the opening dash animation. Very easy to space and DI as it comes out to maintain maximum safety and space control. Try dashing > turn around > instant SH Bair. It feels really good and has a nice arc.
- Dolphin Slash is a nice punish. Still very fast start-up with decent knockback. If you block anything, and your opponent is close, let it rip. Only do it when your opponent is around 30% or higher otherwise you may get punished on hit.
- Jab is your fastest button at 4 frames. Use it to shut down quick dash in attempts or as an anti air vs short hop approaches.
- F-tilt kills at tipper around 115%. Safe vs all but the fastest characters. Great anti air. Decent poke. Good move. Use it.
- Dealing with opponents who possess strong rushdown is difficult but not impossible. Dash back pivot ftilt and dsah back pivot grab are very strong vs that fighting style. It will require great reaction and patience but one well placed pivot grab can turn the tide and let you stay in control. Jabs are also great due to their speed and coverage.
- D-throw to Uair is your main combo. After you land it, transition into a trap scenario where you are trying to draw out the air dodge then punish. From there you want to reset the trap or transition to a different trap. If you can't maintain that then allow it to reset to neutral. DO NOT OVER COMMIT i.e double jump fair and ignore your spacing so your opponent just fast fall airdodges through you and lands safely on the ground.
- Your general goal is to push your opponent back towards the ledge. Gain ground and stage control, while not giving up any. Make them respect your pokes and punish mistakes/poor decisions with confidence.
- How you achieve the goal will change according to the match. Some chars outrange you but you move faster on the ground or the air. Some chars are faster, but you have more range or more killing power. Assess each match and recognize where your strengths lie and approach the match accordingly.
Combos
Combos really are just throw set-ups into Dolphin Slash or Crescent Slash. D-throw, Dolphin slash works at basically any percent from 0 to around 110ish depending on who you are fighting, but its not safe on hit until the higher percents so be aware of that. F-throw, Crescent Slash works at low percents and seems pretty safe. D-throw to Uair works at very low percents. Honestly I dont think it works past 10% but I need to test more.
Throw Set-ups
This is what Marth has alot of. Throws naturally put your opponent where you want them. F-throw and B-throw for edge guard set-ups. U-throw/D-throw for air traps. Dancing Blade up version pops them up as well. D-tilt is a natural trap move. On hit it can lead to several options, but nothing is guaranteed so you have to be sure to watch your opponent and pick up on habits.
Traps
Ledge Traps are the same since Melee. Space yourself outside of their ledge attack and you have effectively covered 90% of your opponents options. If they do something stupid punish them. Remember that regrabbing the ledge doesnt reset invincibility. If they do that, ATTACK THEM.
D-tilt Trap In-depth
By abusing D-tilts IASA frames or "interruptible As Soon As" its possible to create very tight traps that are difficult to escape. If this move is shielded, spot dodged or rolled away from Marth/Lucina remain in a strong position to punish or remain in control. Spot dodge is a free almost any punish you want granted you are fast enough to react. Roll behind means grab or Dancing Blade. Shielded means you can do another, Shield Breaker, dash grab or simply...wait. More then likely your opponent will roll. Roll away you can punish with dash dancing blade but only those with the fastest of reaction times will get this punish consistently. If they shield drop and attempt to attack you can just AA them with f-tilt or f-smash if you want the stock and they have enough percent. YOU MUST MASTER THE D-TILT TRAP OR YOU WILL NEVER SUCCEED AT HIGH LEVEL WITH THESE TWO CHARACTERS.
Air/Juggle Traps
Air dodge is worse, but aerials have more recovery. Chasing with Uair to force an airdodge and then fast falling works well. When you land, chase down with a grab or dancing Blade. Your success will vary depending on the character you are fighting. If you have Dashing Assault then you can easily chase down opponents who have moved further away from your zone of control. This is good because the attack pushes your opponent onto the ledge for ledge trapping. Flowing from one trap to another is a core part of Marth's metagame. Going for a d-tilt trap upon an opponents landing is a strong way to remain in control without committing. D-throw is strong for setting up aerial/landing traps since it has the least recovery.
Dealing with Projectiles
Pretty simple stuff really. Powershield works like Brawl and when done correctly you will see a red spark radiate from where an attack struck your shield. You can shield drop with less frames, making advancing much easier. You can also SH airdodge and land without the horrible recovery if you air dodge immediately. Marth/Lucina dash low enough that they can go under high projectiles. They can also easily swat projectiles with their sword, fanning them away. Counter is also good to use occasionally for aggressive projectile zoners that try to use their options to limit you and close in. Focus and stay patient. Projectile zoning wins by breaking down the player mentally and getting them to fall into baits and traps. Don't lose your cool. You have all the tools to deal with it.
Kill set-ups
At kill percents of around 100% Marth has two different set-ups that are fairly reliable. One is grounded grab release the other is out of Dancing Blade. Grab release is easy. After a grab simply keep pummeling your opponent. They will eventually break out. At that point a stutter step F-smash will usually do the trick for you to net a tipper. You may have to dash towards your opponent or away. Depends on the spacing. This set-up can't be abused really since any defensive action will stop it from working, but if you are fighting someone you know likes to hit buttons, this set-up works well as your f-smash will blow through them. Doesn't work vs chars with very long reaching quick normals like little mac and his f-tilt. (3 frames)
The other set-up that is more reliable is the Dancing Blade juggle set-up. After the first hit of DB up version, stop attacking and wait. If your opponent stays in place go for the tipper. you may have to stutter step in either direction. If they try to jump then you can go for a trap. If they try to attack, then you can usually block on reaction then punish. I like this set-up alot because it gives you alot of options and since your opponent is in the air, you have alot of control over the situation. Even if you can't get a kill, you still have advantage.
Remember the set-up is DB(1) > DBUP(2) > stop and wait a split second.
Both Shaya and Eternal vouch for this set-up as well, so that speaks for it's consistency.
Updated: 11/27/2014
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