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Post Your Videos Here To Get Them Critiqued

Discussion in 'Samus' started by Corigames, Dec 26, 2007.

  1. 343

    343 Smash Journeyman

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    for #3: aerial interrupt -> shield!
    Corigames likes this.
  2. Kushamo

    Kushamo Smash Cadet

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    Hey everyone! I'm a newbie about to go to my first tournament soon. Right now I want to be concerned with starting good habits/killing bad ones and just get a better feel of everything, so any criticism is much appreciated!

    https://youtu.be/vTECaV04LZQ and https://youtu.be/QMSIuO0TbUI (sorry about the quality)
    These are just netplay matches with random people who may not be the best at punishing bad habits, so go nuts

    In addition, I have a few general questions -
    -First, I understand from threads on this board and high-level videos that wavedashing should be one of my major tools, but I'm not exactly sure how to incorporate it into play. Is it situational, or just something I should do as much as I can? Is it just something you get a feel for as you progress?
    -I know Samus's weakness is approaching from below, but I don't really know what to do against an enemy on the main stage when I'm on the top platform. Is this just part of Samus, and is it generally better to run to the side platforms vs just falling through?
    -What do you do against a good Marth? Specifically, what's the safest way to get back onstage from the ledge? If I try to drop down > jump and aerial, I eat his sword, and get up/rolls get me grabbed.
  3. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    One thing I noticed is that you don't shield enough. It looks like you were just in attack mode the whole time, but you were getting hit with attacks that could have been shielded. I understand it sucks to shield against marth and sheik since they are grab heavy characters. However, if you are shielding and they come in for grab, you could spot dodge or wavedash back out of shield.

    Another thing I noticed is that you use Down Smash alot. I love down smash and I know I spammed it a lot back in the day, but against better competition, players are going to shield it and punish you since its kind of a slow move, but it worked for you against noob players, so I'd keep using it haha. I'm just warning you that it won't work as well at higher level. I also noticed you used Dash Attack alot. What will happen against better players is that they will shield the dash attack and just grab you.

    Getting up off the ledge against marth is difficult. If you can't ledge hop to fair, then I personally think the next best option is ledge roll. Most Marths will space themselves at a distance from the ledge where if you use get up, or ledge attack then they can just tipper fsmash. Ledge Roll will atleast get you behind them. This might result in you getting grabbed again and back thrown into the air above the ledge, but I think then you can do a little bomb jumping to throw off their timing if they are fishing for an fsmash.

    Samus in general is better when she is on the ground and her opponents are above her. Samus gets ****ed by pretty much Marth, Falcon, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Fox, and Young Link if you end up above them on a platform. You can use platforms for movement, but don't stay on them too long because other characters can rack up a lot of damage on Samus that way.

    Wavedashing is an important tool, but don't spam it like the noobs I see at every tournament. They just wavedash into attacks because they think wavedashing is the best tech in the world. One good way to use wavedashing is running at your opponent and then wavedashing backwards when you are close to bait out an attack or shield from the opponent. Obviously, it helps with grabbing ledge quickly.

    Lastly, I think you should use more tilts like F-tilt and U-tilt.

    Hope any of this helps.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015
  4. BillNyeTheSamusGuy

    BillNyeTheSamusGuy Smash Journeyman

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  5. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    For recovery you could have used your double jump/saved your double jump. Against Sheik, you will inevitably get sniped with needles on recovery. Having the double jump is helpful. I think the best way to recover against sheik if they are needling is, assuming you start high, bomb recovering right up until the level of the needles, then fast falling below that level and then double jumping/upB to ledge.

    Good Sheik players will see that coming most of the time and respond by running off fair/nair/bair, but if you know that is coming then you can catch them with a quick upB and grab ledge or get back on stage.

    If you are recovering below the ledge, still save your double jump because you will probably get sniped by the downward needles. When the bombs get spiked, you can double jump to closer to the stage and try grappling when you are in that space between the range of the needles and the stage.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
  6. Kushamo

    Kushamo Smash Cadet

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    Hey, me again! The tourney was yesterday and I did better than I could have expected! That is to say, I didn't get four-stocked anywhere. My best set just so happened to be the only one that was streamed, and I took two stocks off SS | Nicaboy, who went on to win the event.
    http://www.twitch.tv/typohousegames/b/651276781?t=129m14s
    This was just in pools (I didn't even advance to the bracket), so I was fortunate to get put in the same pool as him.
  7. BillNyeTheSamusGuy

    BillNyeTheSamusGuy Smash Journeyman

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    Wavedashing is a defensive read. When you know your opponent is going to attack a specific position (generally if you read they're going to attack you where you are standing) wd back and punish. Hugs does this incessantly. Also wave dash forward ftilt is a burst option that covers like half of fd. I like to punish foxes with it if they commit too hard to laser camping.
    Coming down is a mixup for samus, you have a lot of options that are all punishable in different ways so yo have to be a little random. Ways to get down: fast fall, bomb, fast fall nair, double jump->fast fall. I generally go to a side platform but the more important thing is to go for the area where their zoning is the weakest.

    Your options depend on the marths spacing

    If the marth is really close to the ledge you can: ledgehop fair->lcancel->upb/dtilt (upb is completely safe whereas dtilt can be punished depending on the situation) or wd onto stage. Maybe air dodge through the marth, just know that you will be punished but at least you'd be back on stage.

    If the marth is farther back you can: do the hugs jump (no impact landing from ledgehop) then shield or dsmash (dsmash is frame 6 and has hecka range so it can beat a lot of options as an unreactable decision), do a plain ledge jump to the platform, or ledgehop->missile.

    Also returning to stage is something that you should heavily mix up. You may find that you get punished for it everytime right now but if you use more options in general you'll find that roll/neutral get up/ledge attack become stronger options as well.

    Also also also, this is only level one edge game type stuff. When your opponent starts getting past stuff like this you'll need to step it up by not only mixing up what action you take but also mixing up your timing on those actions. Do this by empty ledgehopping away from the stage and retaking ledge and/or hax dashing until you feel like attempting to get on stage.

    I know you asked this a while ago but I just now read your old post and thought you had good questions!
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  8. Kushamo

    Kushamo Smash Cadet

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    I've s

    Heh, this actually seems kinda obvious, in hindsight. No option is strictly good enough that it isn't worth it to mix up.

    Thanks for your answers!
  9. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    Again, you were throwing out attacks but were not shielding enough. Wavedashing into and out of shield are good options against Fox. He is too fast for Samus, so you need to be ready to shield. Fox's grabs against Samus don't lead into much unless you somehow fall for his up throw into up air, so getting grabbed and thrown are better options than letting Fox hit you with a bunch of nairs, shines, bairs and uSmash. Eventually when you get good at anticipating when Fox is coming in for an attack you can start mixing in spot dodges to throw off your opponent so they can't automatically go for the grab. You should definitely use wavedashing backwards to bait out attacks from fox and then hit him with dSmash, ftilts, Utilts, etc.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  10. BillNyeTheSamusGuy

    BillNyeTheSamusGuy Smash Journeyman

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    hmm?
  11. Kushamo

    Kushamo Smash Cadet

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    Yeah, this is definitely where I've made the least progress so far, especially the mentality of being grabbed over eating attacks. Part of it is also that I'm not sure when I should shield.

    I was just going to say I've started doing this to help my spacing, and one of my friends even commented on it. I just need to practice doing it more and more until I get it consistently, because right now I flub it a lot.
  12. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    Most of the time fox players opt for nairs, up smash, shines when they approach you. They will grab less often than attack because shine is so fast its like a bail out for them, so they aren't afraid to put on shield pressure with attacks against Samus. Also, Fox doesn't really get any great follow ups on Samus after grabbing her, so thats another reason they don't go for grabs. They'll only really go for more grabs when they realize you are going to shield every time. Thats why you gotta mix it up and use spot dodges too, so that you become less predictable.

    Once you master knowing when to shield you can start doing UpB out of shield to punish Foxes that get too close with their shield pressure. And then Wavedashing out of shield to get out of some shield pressure.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
    Kushamo likes this.
  13. BK-201

    BK-201 Smash Rookie

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  14. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    you're definitely good and with a few more months of practice and fixing some of your strategy you will be great. I think you mostly need more matchup knowledge.

    I'll comment on your Fox matchup. Full jumping with aerials and being on top of platforms against fox is a bad idea. Sometimes reading when Fox will jump and trying to hit him with an aerial can work, but most of the time you miss and then get punished for it. Also, if Fox is on a platform, on battlefield, YS, PS, or FoD, I would opt for Up tilt from underneath first instead of an aerial like Uair, Nair or Fair. Because what I see from most fox players is that when they are on a platform above samus they see those attacks coming and they jump up very quickly to avoid them. If you go for the aerial and miss they are falling back down quickly with Bairs, and since they fall faster than samus, they will L cancel, jump and bair again or shine you off the stage and put you in bad position.

    Staying grounded against Fox is definitely important because Fox's aerials are quick and he can get multiple aerials on Samus, similar to how Captain Falcon fights samus. Also, trying to stay center stage is important because if you are by the edge and get shined, a good Fox is going to followup with shine spikes off stage, so you don't want to end up battling near the edge.
  15. BK-201

    BK-201 Smash Rookie

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    Thank you for your input. I appreciate the critique.

    So, more or less you think I should use less arials to punish Fox when he gets on the top platform? Do you think the utilt should come into play when I'm reading him and believe he's coming down from the top platform? Or just when he gets on the other two platforms that aren't as high? How should I handle Fox when he is on the top platform already? I always seem to get punished by a fast fall->bair when Fox is on that top platform, so I would definitely benefit from fixing up my strategy there.

    Thanks again.
  16. dietsnapple89

    dietsnapple89 Smash Cadet

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    I use Up tilt when Fox is on the two mid level platforms and I am underneath because it pokes, except on Dreamland. Also, even if Fox angles his shield down to block it and then shield drops through the platform, you can probably hit him with an UpB since it comes out fast and you can rack up a little percentage and the match will be reset to neutral game again. Another reason I won't do an aerial when fox is on the platforms is also because sometimes they shield and Nair,Uair, Fair won't poke them, allowing Fox to shield grab Samus when the animation is over (happened to you here: https://youtu.be/5jnSwH_fxqQ?t=5m3s). You could position your aerial in a way to land behind Fox to avoid being shield grabbed in that situation, but Fox can still shield drop through the platform and jump bair again or they could wavedash into attack/shine out of shield while Samus is in landing lag. None of those options sound good to me, so I think its best to avoid all them by not committing to an aerial attack in the first place.

    Where it is good to use aerials is when Fox is coming back with Firefox or Fox Illusion. Obviously, they are stuck in those animations and they have predictable trajectories, so anticipating where they will be at after those moves and hitting them with an aerial while they are vulnerable and falling back to stage is a good move. You did a good job of this in the match you posted, so you know this already, but I just wanted to write it for anyone else.

    Up Throw to Fair, Nair, Bair is a good time to do aerials as well. Another good combo to use against Fox on YS or FoD is Up throw so they tech on top platform, jump above Fox then read his tech roll or tech in place and then Down air to pop him up again. From there you can Nair, Up tilt, or FSmash while Fox is in hit stun.

    When Fox goes to the very top platform, I let him stay there until he comes down. Chasing him up there will just lead to him quickly falling below you, which isn't a position Samus wants to be in against Fox for reasons mentioned earlier. You can try and read when he is falling from top platform and hit him with an Up tilt. It should be safe, because if you miss then you probably have enough time to put up your shield or spot dodge if Fox tries to punish, and then if he gets to close you can get him with an UpB. So I don't think its risky to try that read.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015

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