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Possible Marth tech found? (video inside)

Not_Indigo

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Just as a disclaimer, this appears to be fairly situational. As far as I know, it can be done on all stages, but on all except for two or three, it's not practical. Also, I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere after trying to find it, so I don't think it's been discovered already. I've seen similar ones (namely one that involved dropping of the ledge, then air dodging onto the stage), but none that are the same as this.

While I was in training earlier, I noticed that I had done something that looked like wavelanding. After a while, I was able to find out how it happened and redo it in a match to upload. The quality isn't the greatest since I don't have a capture card, and it's too big to embed (unfamiliar with limitations on embedding here, but it wasn't showing up in preview), so here's a direct link to the gfy: http://gfycat.com/BrownGlamorousAmazondolphin

I dashed after getting up in the gfy, but you can do any other ground option out of it.

To do it, you tilt the stick back lightly to let go of the ledge without moving backwards at all, then immediately mash the stick towards the stage and jump. I ran through the roster and wasn't able to do it with anyone else, including Lucina, but there's a chance other characters can do it (a Duck Hunt main told me he definitely had it happen to him, and Lucina seems like she should be able to do it). After I went through the characters, I tested the rest of the legal stages, and I wasn't able to get it to reliably work on any stage except Smashville and BF. I couldn't do it on the one-sided platforms in Delfino, Halberd, or Skyloft, although stages with a wall extending to the lower blast zone seem to be possible if the jump is done lower than on BF -- I was able to do it on Duck Hunt by falling farther than usual.

Here's the full video of my attempts, for anyone curious (gfy part starts at 1:07; this was right after finding out how to do it):


tl;dr: Marth can do something similar to wavelanding when hanging on the ledge, but it's harder to perform.
 

Langston777

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huh, i've seen this before done on accident but could never tell what it was

i got this to work twice out of like 30 attempts lol

wavelanding is hard to get down too so maybe if we find the exact timing for this we might be able to employ it better

edit: actually tbh i think normal get up and airdodge are good enough recovery options as it is so i doubt this has much use lol
 
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Not_Indigo

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huh, i've seen this before done on accident but could never tell what it was

i got this to work twice out of like 30 attempts lol

wavelanding is hard to get down too so maybe if we find the exact timing for this we might be able to employ it better

edit: actually tbh i think normal get up and airdodge are good enough recovery options as it is so i doubt this has much use lol
I wasn't able to get it often at first, either, but the timing got easier with practice. I can get it around 3 out of 5 times now after minimal practicing (15 minutes at most). And just for convenience, I'll refer to it as ledgedashing for now, since it's essentially the same thing as in Melee.

It's situational, as I mentioned before, but definitely has potential. It lets you do smashes, tilts, or grabs directly from the ledge, which gives huge mixup potential on the stages it works on. I wouldn't quite call an addition to Marth's spacing game useless, either, since anything that can net tippers is well worth using (especially when it has the same function as a ledge hop waveland).

The advantage this has is speed -- normal getup has invincibility frames, but it's slow enough to give the opponent plenty of room to react. Ledgedashing and following up with an attack removes a majority of the getup frames, minimizing the reaction window. Air dodging to the stage and regular getups sacrifice speed for invincibility frames, and although they might fit some situations, they aren't always the optimal choice.
 

Senshu

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Okay, i'm not going to outright dismiss this as a tech, but as I see it if you can't do it 3 times in a row when actively trying to do it, then it's too risky to attempt in the middle of a match that you risk getting read and slaughtered for, especially considering it uses your second jump.
 
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Langston777

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the only thing this would allow you to do is dash grab onto the stage

want to attack immediately off the ledge? you can fall off and fair onto the stage which is probably faster, easier to do, and sets up potential jab lock into free tipper fsmash if your opponent doesn't tech the ground.

i understand what you're getting at but tbh i think marth can cover those options already just as safely and usefully. don't think this is really worth the trouble considering how tricky it seems. wouldn't mind being proved wrong, but i don't see the use.
 

Not_Indigo

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Okay, i'm not going to outright dismiss this as a tech, but as I see it if you can't do it 3 times in a row when actively trying to do it, then it's too risky to attempt in the middle of a match that you risk getting read and slaughtered for, especially considering it uses your second jump.
The same applies for all techniques in any fighting game. You need to practice certain movements before applying them in serious matches, since trying to immediately pick something up, such as wavedashing, will result in failure more times than success. I fail to see how that doesn't apply here as well, since failure should be expected when first learning how to do something.

the only thing this would allow you to do is dash grab onto the stage

want to attack immediately off the ledge? you can fall off and fair onto the stage which is probably faster, easier to do, and sets up potential jab lock into free tipper fsmash if your opponent doesn't tech the ground.

i understand what you're getting at but tbh i think marth can cover those options already just as safely and usefully. don't think this is really worth the trouble considering how tricky it seems. wouldn't mind being proved wrong, but i don't see the use.
The advantages of this are identical to the advantages of ledge hop wavelands. With both, you use your second jump, and both place you on the stage a short distance from the ledge. You certainly could do an aerial in some situations, but the opponent isn't always going to be within range to land an aerial from the ledge. You would need to wait after jumping until coming into range of the opponent, giving more time to react. As I've already mentioned, it also opens up more options from the ledge, such as tilts (which have different roles than the Fairs you're proposing, as should be self-explanatory), grabs, or smashes.

If Marth has better alternatives for this option, how would you cover someone just outside of ledge attack and Fair range more efficiently? Ledge hopping a Fair would require waiting until you get within range, as said before, and the other options would be too slow or ineffective. Rolling would be too slow, although it would put you behind them. Jumping could be a somewhat neutral choice depending on the matchup. Regular getups would leave a large window for reacting, and ledge attacks wouldn't hit, leaving you open for a punish. You could ledge hop onto the stage, but at that point, it would just be a less effective ledge dash.
 

Langston777

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it is NOT identical because you do not retain invincibility from wavelanding onto the ledge as far as i'm aware. regular get-up only sticks you with 1 or 2 frames of recovery making it a pretty safe option. compared to standing up with no invinciblity. if your plan is to attack right off the ledge, they would expect marth to come onto the stage with a fair anyway, so if they read you their option to cover that would probably cover this option too...

if someone chooses to NOT edgegaurd you then just get up on the ledge and defend your position, you don't HAVE to force an attack, especially if you don't have a good read. If you want to dash onto the stage and hit someone out of normal range go for it but it doesn't seem like the payoff would be worth much in this game
 

Pugwest

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huh, i've seen this before done on accident but could never tell what it was

i got this to work twice out of like 30 attempts lol

wavelanding is hard to get down too so maybe if we find the exact timing for this we might be able to employ it better

edit: actually tbh i think normal get up and airdodge are good enough recovery options as it is so i doubt this has much use lol
I can see people getting mind gamed by this and a grab follow up from this would be so fast and almost hard to avoid. I might perfect this if we find a consist way.
 

fox67890

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I'll be honest...

If this was legit mastered, it could be very useful. I think the difficulty of it is too high though. And I understand-- in lots of games, lots of things are difficult, and yet they are mastered by many people. But...I feel like this one pushes it too far imo. Don't get me wrong, if this was mastered, it would be useful, and it would be cool to see it actually mastered.

This kinda reminds me of Marth's dolphin slash cancel in brawl, where if Marth dolphin slashed into the ledge at a super precise angle/position, it would cancel, and you'd get some options out of it. Almost no one was able to do it consistently though, so you never saw it unless it happened by accident.

I get the feeling that this tech will follow a similar fate, in that it's too difficult/unreliable to perform consistently. It may even suffer a worse fate, because it seems even harder to perform than the dolphin slash trick.

Once again, it would be cool to see mastered, but I don't think it'll happen. I'd love to be proved wrong though!
And just as a note, this tech actually has been talked about before, but as far as I'm aware, I don't think anyone knows why it works. At the very least, I don't.
 

cerealkiller

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I guess this is like the snaplegde vulnerability with F-smash. It incredibly useful but incredibly difficult because it's frame perfect. I try it a lot, only managed to do it twice so far.
 

Aunt Jemima

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I'm not sure exactly what causes this, but I believe that Marth's foot is touching the very edge of Battlefield during his double jump animation as he's rising. This causes the game to think he's grounded, so he gets glued down.

Actually, if this is mastered, wouldn't Marth be the scariest ledge trapper in the game? He either gets free trump follow-ups (D-Air!), he can punish the ledge attack with whatever, and ledge rolls could be punished, too. This is just in theory, though. I have no idea what the frame data on ledge rolls are.
 
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Not_Indigo

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I'm not sure exactly what causes this, but I believe that Marth's foot is touching the very edge of Battlefield during his double jump animation as he's rising. This causes the game to think he's grounded, so he gets glued down.

Actually, if this is mastered, wouldn't Marth be the scariest ledge trapper in the game? He either gets free trump follow-ups (D-Air!), he can punish the ledge attack with whatever, and ledge rolls could be punished, too. This is just in theory, though. I have no idea what the frame data on ledge rolls are.
That sounds like the best explanation for it. I found out that Wario has a similar tech with his bike, and the slowed-down footage at 0:32 in this video showed that his jump was cancelled as his foot hit the stage. It seems like this works the same way.

It definitely would be an awesome mixup for ledge trapping. However, it's worth keeping in mind that out of the non-omega legal stages, it only works on BF and Smashville. If it does work the same way as Wario's bike trick, those are definitely the only two non-omega stages that it can be done on reliably. There's a list of all stages, including omegas, the bike AT can be done on at 1:07 in the video I linked above. I haven't gotten around to testing the omega stages, so there's a chance it works differently, but my guess is that they function the same, although I have been able to do it on Duck Hunt by slightly changing the double jump's angle.
 
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Solutionme

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Let's just hope, we know Marth needs some ATs, I mean just imagine the mix-up with a shield breaker on someone who left their shield on too long.
 

Vipermoon

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I did this yesterday. I was jumping back on stage (never grabbed the ledge) and it happened, it was more in the beginning of the jump when it was cancelled it seemed. I forgot which aerial I was doing but I landed with a Jab.
 
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JANKX

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Is this possible in the 3DS version? I've been trying to do it, but the only odd thing that happens is the dust animation as if I dashed on the ground (Marth still jumps normally).
 

Not_Indigo

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Is this possible in the 3DS version? I've been trying to do it, but the only odd thing that happens is the dust animation as if I dashed on the ground (Marth still jumps normally).
I can't test it out on the 3DS, otherwise I'd try. Mine died a while ago after trying to unscrew it (pressed down too hard on the inside screws). I assume it's doable but harder on the 3DS, though, since the controls aren't as good as the Wii U. There aren't any ATs that are exclusive to one version, as far as I know.
 

isaiah :)

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after spending the better half of five minutes testing this with no enemy (no joke only spent five minutes ) i learned a few things.
first, this tech allows marth to have a strong trump because he can attach and detach himself from the ledge rather quickly and and throw aerials out after, this will probably be used a lot more in the later meta game when people learn to get better off stage, so i also learned its a sweet spot tech, basically i have had success after the second try with this movement (stage ledge to the right of marth = :GCR: -> :GCD: -> :GCUL:) and (stage ledge to the left of Marth = (:GCL:->:GCD:->:GCUR:) i've bee getting it down almost every time and its basically an amazing ledge trump, it gives marth a lot of off stage potential.


edit: did anther quick two minute test, you can dash in to the tech as well, just apply the same directions i listed.
 
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Admiral_Dante

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after spending the better half of five minutes testing this with no enemy (no joke only spent five minutes ) i learned a few things.
first, this tech allows marth to have a strong trump because he can attach and detach himself from the ledge rather quickly and and throw aerials out after, this will probably be used a lot more in the later meta game when people learn to get better off stage, so i also learned its a sweet spot tech, basically i have had success after the second try with this movement (stage ledge to the right of marth = :GCR: -> :GCD: -> :GCUL:) and (stage ledge to the left of Marth = (:GCL:->:GCD:->:GCUR:) i've bee getting it down almost every time and its basically an amazing ledge trump, it gives marth a lot of off stage potential.


edit: did anther quick two minute test, you can dash in to the tech as well, just apply the same directions i listed.
Wait... aren't you just grabbing the ledge with this tech? I just use a big semicirle motion...

I thought this thread was about dashing back on stage after hanging from the ledge. I'm still finding it hard to do on purpose. Did it a couple times in matches when i didn't want to though (i.e. dashed into a falcon punch -____-)...
 
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isaiah :)

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ill test some more tonight to see which direction inputs may give the most success
 

ReturningFall

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I wonder if anyone else can do this. Could be fun. More ledge getups are always kinda cool because ledge is a pretty disadvantaged position as is and anything to help turn it to an advantage is helpful.

Opponent thinks they can trick you into rolling into something by dash dancing in and out? Out yomi-them with a counterattack! Opponent waiting outside range to come in for a punish on your getup? beat them to the punch with a quick dash in.

It'll never work every time, but then again, is getting up or jumping every time a good option either? Having the threat of an attack can be a help on it's own as the threat of an attack can push the opponent farther back and makes any responses on other getups slower.
 

Darklink401

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I feel that with some practice, this will be able to be done consistently. The inputs at least seem to make sense, which is great.
 

Vipermoon

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Yeah I can see this being used to punish opponents for a smash attack or something. It seems to save a lot of time from a normal get-up and since you're already dashing just Dash Grab and throw them off-stage (or up if it will kill) or Usmash.
 

Gemba Board

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I made this video thinking I found something new and found this thread. I wish this could be performed more deliberate on every stage.
 

Not_Indigo

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Wow, just realized that it's been over 2 months since I've come here. I've stopped using Marth as much (I used to play him in almost every match). I main Ryu now, and Marth is a sub. I thought of using Roy over Marth once he was released, but using one of them destroys how I play with the other, so I decided to stick with Marth.

Back on topic, I actually used this intentionally in a match and landed a tippered Fsmash from the edge a while ago. I'll dig around to see if I saved the replay. It was pretty satisfying to do it in an actual match, though.

Yeah I can see this being used to punish opponents for a smash attack or something. It seems to save a lot of time from a normal get-up and since you're already dashing just Dash Grab and throw them off-stage (or up if it will kill) or Usmash.
You technically aren't already dashing when you do this. The gify I made for the OP ended up with me mashing the stick again after getting up, although you can get up without dashing. You could even do a jab or tilt from the ledge (especially with the 1.0.8 buffs to jab and Utilt).
 

Darklink401

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It'd be cool to use this for edgeguarding since you can get onstage and offstage for repeated gimps much faster, and with the ability to use that first grounded jump as opposed to just releasing the ledge XP
 

Xelion

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Back on topic, I actually used this intentionally in a match and landed a tippered Fsmash from the edge a while ago. I'll dig around to see if I saved the replay. It was pretty satisfying to do it in an actual match, though.
What are the other possibilities, can you do any move out of this? I haven't had time to practice it, so I was wondering what you found out.
 

A_Kae

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What are the other possibilities, can you do any move out of this? I haven't had time to practice it, so I was wondering what you found out.
Since you're in a standing position after this, you can do any move.
 

Admiral_Dante

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I see it now. Looking at Ryukio's vid if you keep your eye on the ring that gets made from an aerial double jump, you'll notice that when Ryukio does it correctly the ring is right under where Marth's feet hang from the ledge. And when he messes up the ring is lower. Basically meaning you have to do the the jump as fast as possible. I imagine you have to also have to press forward as fast as possible after letting go of the ledge as well.
 
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Izaw

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I really like this actually... I'll try this at home asap to see how hard it actually is.. this is actually really good if it can be consistent.
 

Darklink401

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I really like this actually... I'll try this at home asap to see how hard it actually is.. this is actually really good if it can be consistent.
It's not THAT hard, after 10-15 minutes of practice, one should be able to do it semi-consistently.
 

Izaw

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Wow.. Can't believe I haven't seen this before.. This seems to be Marths best get-up option from the ledge since he literally can do anything from it, and punish quicker than normal. Just the fact that he has another option on the ledge is crazy..
 

Attila_

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I'm having trouble with this one.

Just so we're clear, you press:

1. Back
2. Forward
3. Jump

Really, really quickly.

Do you need to hold forward, or return the stick to neutral?
 
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Darklink401

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Wow.. Can't believe I haven't seen this before.. This seems to be Marths best get-up option from the ledge since he literally can do anything from it, and punish quicker than normal. Just the fact that he has another option on the ledge is crazy..[/quo
I'm having trouble with this one.

Just so we're clear, you press:

1. Back
2. Forward
3. Jump

Really, really quickly.

Do you need to hold forward, or return the stock to neutral?
You have to doubletap jump. (hold after the second tap) Once to position yourself closer to the ledge, another to, as soon as you jump, begin running.
 

Attila_

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So then:


1. Back
2. Forward
3. Jump
4. Forward

Are all inputs performed as quickly as possible? Or is there a slight delay somewhere?

Do you have to return the forward inputs to neutral fully?
 

Vipermoon

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But is step number 4 even necessary? I thought you could do it without immediately running on stage.
 
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