Playing against Marth?

[DJCrinkleCut]

Hey guys, I'm an amateur Peach player, and one thing I seem to not be able to deal with at all is a Marth. Even when my friend is ****ing around with Marth (he doesn't play him at all) I have a tough time dealing with his range advantage.

So what is the best way in dealing with a Marth without switching characters? I mean, I'm working on a Ganon, but I'd rather stick with my main girl.

 

[rje457]

I'm not that great in the MU right now either, unfortunately it's a MU that is possible but it takes a while to truly master so stick with Peach and you will figure it out. Advice I got from other players is that turnips is very key in this MU, Armada told me personally that you should keep your turnips grounded, and use float cancelled bairs if possible. Watch Armada vs PewPewU from MLG Anaheim this past summer for a great example. Against amateur Marth players who like to fsmash a lot, bait it and punish with a insta-float cancelled nair.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

Thanks. Conveniently enough, Armada just made a guide for the MU.
I would post the link, but I don't have enough posts yet .-.

 

[rje457]

Lol I was thinking the same thing when he posted it as well. I think Armada wrote about the Peach VS Marth MU first because it's the MU that most Peach main's ask about.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

It's most certainly a tough matchup, I think it's her second toughest after Puff.

 

[†ang]

Oh yeah, the matchup, totally.
This one sucks.
Just don't play against Marth,dude.

 

[Meredy]

Marth is actually not as bad a matchup as it first seems. It all comes down to spacing, and more importantly, turnips. I had the pleasure of meeting Armada recently and he gave me that advice exactly. If you're not holding a turnip, get some space between the two of you and pull a turnip. Don't throw it for the sake of throwing it, and when you do, it's best to throw it with a retreating short hop for the best mobility.

Try to bait out the Fsmash and go in for a grab after dodging it. Grabbing is your best bet, because it's otherwise difficult to go in on a Marth.

 

[Dominus Felis]

In my opinion glide tossing a turnip the opposite way you slide is very helpful. I am king against puff so if anyone has any questions against jigglypuff I would be happy to answer.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I'm also having serious problems with Marth now. I faced a Marth back in a tournament and he would corner me, preventing me from pulling turnips, and spam forward smashes. I read Armada's guide and saw dozens of videos of Peach vs Marth... Yet I can't seem to do it! XD

1. How do you deal with this match-up?
2. How do you "bait" and avoid Marth's forward smash? How do you punish him accordingly after that?
3. How do you prevent Marth for cornering you near the ledge? How do you force him to space you?
4. What are the best throws against Marth at which percentages?
5. Besides Dreamland, what are the best stages for Peach in this match-up?
6. When Marth comes back on stage from a stock lost and he's invincible... What to do to avoid him?


Thank you very much! ^^


Edit : Also, if you guys are wondering what my average skill level is like, here's a video of a match I had. I am pink (default) Peach. Commentary is in French, but English subtitles are available. I really appreciate any form of critique!

 

[TL_MissingNo]

The Peach vs Marth MU is all about the neutral game. People say Marth is easy to combo, but that's only true with fast fallers and characters who combo easily like sheik. With Peach it's harder because her second jump takes too long, so when Marth is at low percentages he has little to no hitstun up until about 60-70%, but I would say this is true for most MUs.

Anyway, while it's true that pulling turnips is the best way to win the neutral against a Marth player it's bot your only option. It's just most optimal. Dash dancing and wavedashing back out of your dash animation when faking an approach cab bait Marths into wiffed grabs and dash attacks, plus floating at higher heights can give you a sort of dash dance esque baiting situation where you can float slightly forward and then back off as they wiff and aerial or tilt. These are all good examples of things you can do to bait a Marth into a bad and laggy situation. You can get creative with these and never forget that trading is Peach's bread and butter, so you can use her Nair to trade when a Marth hits you with a weak hitbox, and her Bair to out prioritize Marth's aerials.

However there are going to be those aggro Marths that will keep try to get the next Fair as if their life depends on it. In this situation rely on DI and trading to get out of the the combo and when/if you get out run away and if he chases you then punish with a quick float canceled Bair to show him he can't play without neutral game.

As for specific advice towards your MM:

Use dashdancing and wavedashing a bit more in neutral. You were oobviously better than the other Peach so you opted to just keep approaching and trading, but I'd suggest mixing up your neutral game a bit.

And the other thing I noticed is sometimes you would start floating with out any prior momentum. This is kind of awkward looking and also gives your opponent more time to react to your float so try to dash into float or jmp after dashing into a floar cancelled aerial.

I hope my advice is helpful.

 

[Meredy]

For dealing with the Fsmash, a good thing to do (but it easy to adapt to by the Marth, try to mix it up) is to run into tipper range, shield, and after he sends out the Fsmash and your shield catches it, wavedash out of shield to grab him or get some other form of punish. As I said this is easy to adapt to so don't rely on it. Mix it up with FCed aerials, because to adapt to the shield he'll try to go for a JC grab instead of an Fsmash.

 

[Captain Jenny]

It seems unnatural, but you need to stay on the ground in most situation & only really jump (with your back to Marth) to bait out an approach from Marth (he WILL approach you with whether DTilt, grab, FSmash or an aerial). If you baited the approach with a jumpe (NOT a fulljump-float mind you, this is way too easy for Marth to punish on reaction with a second jumpe aerial or sth. like that) you gotta take a close look at what you've got there. If he throws out an aerial you most likely will have to retreat & facing backwards would mean you can BAir which is like REALLY good to punish the small window of lag Marth has after his aerial, if he grabs you're up for a free FAir or BAir (depending on the direction you're facing) to punish the empty grab he did since you're in the air & if he DTilts you should try to stay away from his follow up on that one. Even missing the DTilt doesn't have to mean he's screwed. Since the DTilt stays out so long with active hitboxes it's hard to punish it, so watch his next move to decide what to do.

If you can FAir him, there is a chance you get the opportunity to pull a turnip, which is important for your neutral-game in general, since throwing them from the ground is pretty reliable (but not always the single best option of course, since it's Smash) to defend yourself. The thrown turnip buys you some time in most cases, with the only thing that could screw you up is the opponent grabing the turnip. In this case you will need to watch out for the projectile in his hands, but his option to grab you is negated what leaves you with the option to shield (which is normally pretty rare in neutral against Marth, since his grab is hella good).

Recking up chips of damage with turnips is one side of the medal, but getting the hard punished off is the other. Hard punishes on Marth are quite rare if you ask me, you most likely will get 3 hits or something similar until he can recover from your Little combo. Don't overextend - this will leave you open for hard punishes from Marth, which can result in you losing a stock or at least being airbound for half a minute. Coming down vs Marth is like really hard. You basically gotta trick / mindgame him in throwing out a move & then either counter it with FAir / BAir or airdodge through him (away from him would be bad if he's facing you, since it leaves you open to more followups on his part).

 

[Fakes]

At least in my experience, DD is super important in this matchup. A lot of lower level Marth's start swinging for the fences after they put a decent amount of damage on you. I like to bait out the fmash and punish from there. Whenever I catch myself reaching too much, I start chucking turnips. Sure Marth out-spaces you, but he doesn't have any projectiles. You definitely need to watch out for the first hit of dancing blade too. A lot of Marth players study PP and I notice that against Armada, PP loves to use side-b to up tilt. Again, bait it out and punish accordingly. Off the stage you gotta watch out for the ken combo... my local Marth tells me he thinks Peach is one of the easier characters to pull it off on, take that as you will.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

So... It's been nearly two months since I posted on this thread to ask for help. The response has been amazing and I was able to have a much better understanding of the match-up. Thank you so much, guys. =)


@ TL_MissingNo : I noticed you registered quite recently on Smash Boards, so welcome aboard! Your advices have been tremendously helpful and they mean a lot to me. Also, thank you for your comments regarding my video! I was able to improve my neutral game a lot by adding wavedashes and dash dances into it.

@ Meredy : This is, indeed, a very good option to encourage Marth to leave a large opening. x) Thank you for this important input!

@ Captain Jenny : Your post perfectly detailed the importance of the neutral game. I also agree that you must stay grounded as much as possible. Thank you so much!

@ Fakes : I remember I got spiked quite a lot when trying to come back on the stage. It is very stressing to recover against Marth! xP Thank you!


As I gained experience, I was able to answer several of my questions myself! They might be helpful to other people, so I will share them! If I am wrong, please do correct me!


Best throws?
Note : The percentages at Marth's.

0 - 50% : Up throw. Marth is unable to retaliate when sent upward at these percentages and will eat an up aerial or a neutral aerial. Above 60%, Marth is sent too high and is able to jump out before Peach can land a follow-up.
50% - 80% : Down throw. Marth is sent at a perfect height for a follow-up. Plus, Marth's increased hitsun grants you a sufficient time to land a neutral aerial, back aerial or dash attack, according to his DI.
80%+ : Forward throw or back throw toward the nearest ledge. At this point, you want to send Marth off the stage and proceed to edgeguard him.

Best stages?

1. Dreamland is by far the best stage in this match-up. It is so good that Marth players will unanimously ban this stage. You can survive longer and have an easier time to recover from above thanks to the large blast zones. Furthermore, Marth's forward smash being unable to reach the side platforms is quite a large game changer. To make matters better, "camping" Marth with Vegetable has never been easier.
2. I do not like Final Destination much. However, there is no doubt that this stage is surprisingly good against Marth. Excluding Dreamland, platforms will attract tippers over combo opportunities. No platforms also mean Marth will have an harder time approaching you if you manage to spam turnips.
3. I have trouble deciding which stage between Battlefield and Pokemon Stadium is better. I might consider them to be equal. Pokemon Stadium is Final Destination-like stage with a lower ceiling, two small platforms and moderately helpful transformations. Meanwhile, Battlefield has a remotely acceptable size and good blast zones.
4. Fountain of Dream a.k.a. Fountain of Down smashes is my favorite stage against Fox and Falco. However, unlike them, you cannot "blend" Marth with the low platforms. Instead, they will aid him much more than you. Like I stated above, platforms are tipper-catchers.
5. I will always ban Yoshi's Story against Marth. There is no room to run away if you wish to pull a Vegetable. In addition, Marth's sword will cover a large portion of the stage, including platforms above. A well-placed tipper will kill you at stupidly low percentages. Forward throw > Forward smash once killed me at 40%. ;_;

 

[palespectre]

I keep getting f throw chain grabbed by marth?! Is this a true chain grab or am I DI'ing wrong? I also get Ken Comobed all the time. Where should I DI the f-air?!

 

[MisterCTM]

I keep getting f throw chain grabbed by marth?! Is this a true chain grab or am I DI'ing wrong? I also get Ken Comobed all the time. Where should I DI the f-air?!

Is it at 0% If so, it's legit, he has it on every character at 0% (as far as I know). Either way, it's legit with bad DI (so, not legit, lol, but you get the point). You've gotta DI the fthrow away.

For the ken combo, first off try to not get yourself in the position to be Ken combo'ed, and if you do find yourself in the position, you've gotta DI the fair (the fair that will set up the dair) slightly up and away.

 

[Captain Jenny]

On Yoshis you have a much better punish game as Peach against Marth, since he doesn't wanna go offstage recovering from your followups to combo-break / strike back, he will most likely try to retreat to platforms via DI since Peach has a hard time following up vertically, because of her less optimal second jump in regards of speed. This however leaves you more opportunities to follow up you combos with safe coverage options (if Marth techs on a platform, you will have an easy time to cover much of the space with your reaction on the tech). Yoshis is pretty dangerous because of Marths ability to kill you super early & his range factors in to the maximum on that stage, however it does grant you the advantage of a much more favorable punish game against him, which is always a point to consider. My least favorite go-to stage against Marth might actually be Battlefield, since the platforms are so close, it's hard to avoid getting caught on them, which leaves you open with the even harder task of getting to the bottom middle again, which is always where you wanna be at the very least: On the same level with Marth.