"Plasma Kirby": The Kirby v. Zero Suit Samus MU Thread

[SapphSabre777]

"Plasma Kirby": The Kirby v. Zero Suit Samus MU Thread
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Welcome to the Kirby vs. Zero Suit Samus MU thread! This thread is an open-discussion thread detailing the matchup between Kirby and Zero Suit Samus. The beauty from outer space has had a major overhaul since her introduction in Brawl, while Kirby remained relatively untouched. What can the Ultimate Star Warrior anticipate from the mightiest bounty hunter without her armor? Discuss!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Just a warning, if anybody says crouching completely obliterates Zero Suit Samus without an extraordinary explanation they're getting smited.

 

[Altair357]

crouching completely obliterates Zero Suit Samus

mod note:

 

[ezm1100]

crouching completely obliterates Zero Suit Samus

Lol I know you're probably joking but this is something people were saying for Sheik as well. Kirby can't just crouch the whole match.

 

[Quarium]

Typical answer: crouching and sweetspotted D tilt to whatever punish or chase.

Crouching agaisnt stun gun as with any projectile that goes over Kirby's height while he crouches can be easily powershield if crouching and pressing shield at any moment,(frame one shield boyz and the shield hitbox still covering a lotta space around you even if you crouch) allowing you to get rid of the projectile easier and faster.

A few other things I like to take notice generally when describing the matchup is that if you hit ZSS's shield it is mostly recommending to do so from behind, as she doesn't have terribly powerful or reliable options to react to an attack on shield from behind, always respect her space as she can hit you way harder than you can hit her most of the time! lots of patience, defensive play and spacing will surely help you out as long as you don't give up stage control.

Flling up airs can help you combo greatly at low percent if you don't feel too safe running for the grab.

Properly placed dair pressure(once again, not from the front plz)

Being a floaty there isn't as big chunk of percents where Upairs will safely combo into each other for UpB. Pay attention to your percent and keep your DI up and away from those.

I could add more detailed things and general observations but I'm currently at work </3

 

[Burgundy]

I'll try to post some general pros/cons for Kirby but I haven't fought any good 's so my analysis might not be very accurate. Also I'm doing this based on memory at school so please don't quote me on anything xoxo


Pros:
- We can duck under a lot of ZSS's moves. Ftilt (unless angling down), Fsmash, Usmash, Dash attack, Standing Grab(?), Standard and Charged Neutral B, and maybe others I'm forgetting. (I know we can duck under some aerials but I can't remember which exactly)
- Due to Kirby's weight its pretty easy to DI out of UpB
- We can copy her neutral B which is very beneficial. If you land a charged paralyzer shot you can punish with just about anything.
- I thiiink ZSS is a fast faller and she doesn't have extremely quick aerials so Utilt is great
- We have multiple jumps so if we get spiked by DownB it's pretty easy to make it back, unless you're at a high %
- ZSS's ponytail looks fabulous on Kirby. Dancing with it is the ultimate taunt.
Cons:
- The obvious, Kirby dies very early to ZSS
- We can't duck under Dsmash, which is very fast and stuns, which can lead into a Fsmash or Usmash or a lot of things that KO us.
- Uair strings will murder us.

Copy ability:
Go for it. Projectile, stuns into kill moves, and fabulous as ****

Stages:
- DO NOT go to Halberd. Do not. Plz.
- Delfino has low ceilings too right? Yeah don't go there either.
- Uhh maybe not Smashville or T&C. Unless you like dying at like 40% lol
- FD / Omegas aren't bad.

Eh I tried. The crouching doesn't destroy ZSS but it does help. I think it may be slightly in Kirby's favor. Maybe 55:45

Sorry, didn't realize you don't want ratios

 

[Wintermelon43]

Lol I know you're probably joking but this is something people were saying for Sheik as well. Kirby can't just crouch the whole match.

I think reserved simply edited the post to that

 

[SapphSabre777]

This is an important post to everyone, so listen up!​

It should be noted, that these are open discussions, meaning that we are not asking or wanting match-up ratios! We want an analysis of what each character can do to each other to help with how this match-up goes. Please stick with discussing all of the possible things that each character can do to each other.

 

[TimG57867]

From experience, I'd say that Kirby certainly has the advantage in this matchup. Of course many think it's silly to say that being able to crouch under moves is a good justification for winning a matchup. But look how much of her kit gets negated by such a simple maneuver. More of her kit becomes useless when we crouch than Captain Falcon's which is saying something. When crouching, her Grab, Stun Gun, N-Air, Dash Attack, Jab, F-Smash, etc all go right over us. The stun gun is an especially big one as it means that we have safe way to avoid her stun gun without having to use our shield and risk getting grabbed which is the last thing you want when facing ZSS.

And just like Sheik, we have more going for us here than simply being able to duck under half her arsenal. We happen to be light and small: the combination ZSS hates fighting most. Because we're light, she has a tougher time comboing us than most characters, and because we're small, it's that much easier for us to slip out of her Up-Air chains and DI out of her killer Up B. And on the flip side, we can juggle her pretty well as she's a fast faller. For instance, if she misses a dash grab on us in our crouch position, could use D-Tilt, grab, Up Tilt, to get some nasty combos started on her which have become more potent than ever thanks to the buff to our F-Throw. Speaking of buffs, our Inhale is now a lot more practical in this matchup. It's easier for us to catch an approach from her on reaction and we can use Up-Air and Up Tilt to set up into it. And the stun is certainly handy to have. It's tricky to use effectively due to the charge time and ZSS's nimbleness, but the gun makes the neutral easier for us, gives us a more adequate approach, and gives a kill setup tool into a smash if we get it right. I personally suggest you get the power if you can. Another thing to add, is that just like Sheik, we generally have more kill power than her, especially in our smashes. Although she packs much more oomph in her individual attacks than Sheik does.

That all said though, just like Sheik, underestimating Zero Suit Samus and thinking "LOLZ. All I gotta do is duck, FREE WIN!" is a big mistake against Zero Suit Samus. Especially when you take the following things into consideration:

• While a lot of her moves become useless when we're crouching, in the air, she beats us out with quicker aerials and greater range in her N-Air. She also has good anti-airs in her Up-Tilt and Up Smash. You'll want to stay grounded most of the time this matchup. Only go into the air to challenge her Flip Kick (which you can beat with Up Air) or punish something with a D-Air.
• She's one of the fastest characters in the game and can easily weave in and out as she pleases. She's also highly maneuverable in the air so catching her is a tall order. Fortunately, our crouch means that we don't have to commit too hard to approaching.
• While we can duck Stun Gun easily, her Down Smash is a whole another story. Be careful not crouch too much against her or she might read you and stun you with the Down Smash.
• While being light means that we slip out of combos more easily than most characters, it also means that if she does pull it off, we'll die rather quickly.
• Edge guarding her is easier said than done thanks to her janky Flip Kick and tether grab. However, it's more preictable than Sheik's recovery so gimping it is hard but not impossible. And flip side, when we recovering we have to be weary of her flip kick as it's erratic and spikes hard. We can beat it out with Up Air though so if you're in a pinch, don't be afraid to challenge it. In general keep a close eye on her and have that air dodge button on standby.
• She has a nice out of shield option in her Up B. Seriously, never hit her shield from the front and above. Either grab it our poke it from behind. She doesn't have an moves out of shield to hit you from behind her.
• Her frame data is just superb so we can't afford to sleep on her for a second. However, she does have a lot more lag on crucial/setup moves (namely her crippling tether grab) than Sheik though so punishing her mistakes is perfectly doable.
• While she has good kill setups out of Down Throw and her stun attacks, we don't really have any safe ones. (Up Throw Killing. Make it happen Sakurai) This issue isn't quite as frustrating with ZSS as it is with Sheik though due to her somewhat more manageable frame data.

My honest view of the matchup is that all of the advantages we have against Sheik are more apparent here while our shortcoming aren't as big of an issue. I'd say this matchup is in Kirby's favor. We don't win it enough to call it an easy victory, but we have some clear advantages against her that are more than practical enough to exploit. Here are videos of this matchup in action in competitive settings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TVG2ETPCBk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPk4Qm1wqEY (Game 2)

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/10090475 (Starts about 02:27:00)

The interesting thing about the last one is that this was the match Smash God played to get into Top 32 of Super Smash Con. More interesting is the fact he mostly mains Rosalina and Luma and used her in most of his bracket but went Kirby to face Bengal and his Zero Suit Samus. (I should also note that this same Bengal was inches away from taking a packed Xanadu just a short while prior to the event, narrowly losing to Fatality and is a relatively well know Zero Suit player). Rosalina herself, despite being widely accepted as top tier, is known for struggling greatly against Zero Suit so the fact that Smash God goes Kirby for that matchup definitely shows that the pink puff's advantages are far from impractical.

 

[TimG57867]

You know what? I've been thinking and considering how these matchup threads use puns based off Kirby abilities, I think it would be more appropriate to save Plasma/Spark for Pikachu. Laser seems more appropriate for Zero Suit Samus. Just my two cents.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You know what? I've been thinking and considering how these matchup threads use puns based off Kirby abilities, I think it would be more appropriate to save Plasma/Spark for Pikachu. Laser seems more appropriate for Zero Suit Samus. Just my two cents.

Maybe he's using laser for Fox/Falco?

 

[TimG57867]

Maybe he's using laser for Fox/Falco?

True. Maybe we could do Beam for ZSS, Laser for Fox, and Wing for Falco?

 

[kirbyfan66]

Spark is always available, keep in mind. =P

As for this matchup, yeah, the reason why ZSS is so good is because of her grabs. Crouch negates that option, and while I can't say Kirby will never get grabbed, ZSS loses a lot of her options in general. It also helps that Kirby gets pretty good strings at lower %s - Kirby doesn't do well here just because he can crouch. He does struggle if ZSS goes on the offense, but patience helps a fair bit.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Probably even, most likely ZSS's favour. Yeah we've got duck, but nobody realizes duck puts you in a really bad position. Yeah you can avoid some moves against ZSS, but this leaves ZSS in full control of baiting/mixups/movement/stage position and everything while we sit (or try to wait for a move to duck). If she reads a duck and gets a d-smash, pivot grab, bait shield into grab, we die at 30%. We can't edge-guard her either, and our combos on her are only average.

 

[KenMeister]

Probably even, most likely ZSS's favour. Yeah we've got duck, but nobody realizes duck puts you in a really bad position. Yeah you can avoid some moves against ZSS, but this leaves ZSS in full control of baiting/mixups/movement/stage position and everything while we sit (or try to wait for a move to duck). If she reads a duck and gets a d-smash, pivot grab, bait shield into grab, we die at 30%. We can't edge-guard her either, and our combos on her are only average.

Well, optimally speaking, I don't think ducking in place in general is a smart idea, why would any good player be doing that? Ducking should either be done as a reactionary response or a read, not sitting there until ZSS does something stupid, which would be entirely her fault. A good ZSS and even a Falcon will condition an opening that's hard to react to if you're pulling something like that off.

 

[TimG57867]

Well, optimally speaking, I don't think ducking in place in general is a smart idea, why would any good player be doing that? Ducking should either be done as a reactionary response or a read, not sitting there until ZSS does something stupid, which would be entirely her fault. A good ZSS and even a Falcon will condition an opening that's hard to react to if you're pulling something like that off.

Exactly. I even state myself that you shouldn't spend every second crouching because it can get predictable. If you watch the matches I posted, none of the Kirby players spent a long time crouching without staying active. They only crouched on reaction or ducked for a split second during an approach in case the ZSS tried to pull something. Yes she's fast and has good frame data, but it's not like we're helpless in neutral unless we duck. It just gives us an easy way to avoid her moves without shielding. Also, Smash God was able to tack on 57% off one string in the first vid and pulled off an edge guard. I'd say it's REALLY hard to edge guard a good ZSS. Maybe too hard to be worth a gimp attempt, but it's not impossible. Especially if you knock her too far away to get back with the tether alone.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I wonder how the ZSS MU is. Our crouch is now even stronger as D-Smash is no longer safe on shield due to the hitlag modifiers, but when we aren't crouching we're now going to get demolished because her N-Air and Z-Air are a billion times safer.

It's probably going to end up being worse in the long run as you can't spam D-Tilt against her and get enough damage needed to survive, while once you stop crouching you're screwed. Iunno, maybe we can develop some really stupid strategies against her.

At least she can't punish spaced D-Tilt on block anymore, lol.

 

[Mo433]

I'd call this MU even. Kirby has a easy time facin ZSS on the ground, but in the air it's a whole different ball game. Kirby can't really challenge anything that Zero Suit has in the air. Kirby has low air mobility, and at high damage Samus can kill Kirby with quick areials. On the good side, Kirby can still combo ZSS fairly easily, and can use crouch to his advantage. He also has a easier time than most characters covering ZSS recovery options too. I've played this MU a ton against good ZSS, and I can say without a doubt it's even.

 

[WootSnorlax]

There's no way this matchup is even. It should be in Kirby's favor easily. When you can eliminate most of ZSS's options, mainly because you're crouching, you're already winning the neutral. You force them to play a harder spacing game. The mind games you can do because all you have to do is press down on the joystick is ridiculous. If they jump the only moves they can do to really hit you when you're on the ground is an extremely well spaced nair, or a dair. ZSS really relies a lot on empty hops and nairs/zairs/paralyzer and crouching makes it incredibly difficult to hit you. They can't really just tomohawk grab you neither because you're crouching. It's pretty tragic.

It's not even just crouching either, on all of your aerials if you land with them has Kirby squish to the floor a few frames. That little squish makes you incredibly hard to be shield grabbed if you're approaching with an aerial on shield. Because of this trait we have, which is being really small, if you take the percent lead on ZSS it's really difficult for ZSS to get back into the game.

You're in control once you have that percent lead and it makes the matchup that much easier because now she has to go on the offensive or wait to lose. Kirby as a character is best built to deal with enemies who are coming at us because we lack any mobility. Keep in mind that while every other character has the option to move, jump, attack, or shield (including rolls/spotdodge) we have 5 options against her which is move, jump, shield (including rolls/spotdodge), attack, or crouch.

All of you Kirby players underestimate how stupid ducking can actually be. You can literally do anything out of duck faster than doing anything out of shield (if you take into consideration dropping shield and shield stun also). Dtilt is an amazing move because you're crouching and it can trip. A trip can lead into a free grab or free fsmash. Ducking is probably one of Kirby's best options in the game.

Lol I know you're probably joking but this is something people were saying for Sheik as well. Kirby can't just crouch the whole match.

The difference in this matchup is that Kirby can actually crouch through more of ZSS tools than Sheik's. With Sheik you can't just crouch fairs/nairs/dtilts/ftilts. Crouching just makes it a lot more diffiicult to hit you in that matchup, but those moves never whiff if spaced well. Also with Sheik those are her important tools that she uses the most. Even still through that, being hard to hit makes the matchup easier for us against Sheik. With ZSS though, she can't hit us with the paralyzer gun, she can't dash attack, she can't jab us, she can't grab us, and she can't bair us either. Those are some core tools that she needs that completely whiffs if we are crouching no matter how well she tries to space it.