Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- R.O.B. (Pac-MAN V.S Machine)

[Nu~]

Hello Pac-Mains! Welcome to the matchup thread.
Here, we will discuss Pac-Man's matchups in smash 4 and his potential in the meta.

Current Challenger: Wario

The last 2 days of each week will be used for creating summary of the arguments, and to find out what the matchup is like as a whole.

After the top 8 are out of the way, we will all start voting for who should be discussed next.

Matchup Ratios

• 100:0 - 95:5; Pac-Man chomps this character up faster than ghosts
• 90:10 - 85:15; Pac-Man has a massive advantage.
• 80:20 - 75:25; Pac-Man has a really strong advantage.
• 70:30 - 65:35; Pac-Man has a strong advantage.
• 60:40 - 55:45; Pac-Man has a slight advantage.
• 50:50; Pac-Man is evenly matched against his opponent.
• 40:60 - 45:55; Pac-Man has a slight disadvantage.
• 30:70 - 35:65; Pac-Man has a strong disadvantage.
• 20:80 - 25:75; Pac-Man has a really strong disadvantage.
• 10:90 - 15:85; Pac-Man has a massive disadvantage.
• 0:100 - 5:95; Game Over

Let's advance Pac-Man's meta together!

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Keeping a safe distance against Sonic is near impossible on FD stages since he can zoom around and Spin Dash through a lot of moves. Hydrants and Trampolines OoS are key in disrupting his approaches and the fruits are all vital at punishing mistakes. Sonic won't very well let you charge all the way to Key so more often than not Orange will be your main projectile. It and Melon are also your main gimp tools.
PAC-MAN benefits greatly from platforms since they improve his stage control, and UpSmash can poke through platforms making life a bit easier.
UpSmash also cleanly beats Homing Attack.

 

[dragontamer]

Sonic's priority changes based on whether he uses side-b or down-b, as well as the length of his charge. Melon seems to win against a lot of Sonic's spindashes, but may only clash against the higher-priority versions. I suggest holding onto Melons as much as possible, to clash (or beat) out those spin-dashes.

USmash and UTilt both beat Homing attack.

 

[Nu~]

I'm going to invite over the sonic mains for this topic.
The trampoline really ruins what sonic wants to do. He can't do his normal ground approaches and mixups, because it makes his approach predictable (the only way is up)
When he jumps over it, his landing options are all utilt/usmash bait. If he waits,we can charge melon

 

[dragontamer]

I've taken the liberty to change the title, to encourage Sonic discussion for the next couple of days. I also think that 3 matchups a week might be too fast for this forum, but lets see how quickly the discussion goes.

 

[Nu~]

I've taken the liberty to change the title, to encourage Sonic discussion for the next couple of days. I also think that 3 matchups a week might be too fast for this forum, but lets see how quickly the discussion goes.

Aww not its not a reference to the game, "Pac-Man Vs." Lol
Ah well, it's a lot less vague this way.
Yeah...maybe we should extend the time. We don't have many members here

 

[Firedemon0]

Sonic is one of the tougher matches for Pac-man, because of Sonic is able to effectively weave through more defensive setups for Pac-man. It becomes a game of OOS for Pac-man, Trampoline, Nair, held fruit. You need to learn quickly what the player prefers to use on your shield and adjust accordingly. Spin can be cancelled with shield before charged as a result you never want to throw fruit or commit to OOS, till he commits to coming at you. That said, he does not have much to do against shield except for grab. Spring is not a gimp against Pac-man. I do feel it is disadvantaged against pacman just because of how fast sonic is. This is far from being impossible if you play smart, so 55:45 for Sonic.

 

[B_Cypher]

Hey guys, I'm a sonic main so I'll drop a few little tips for ya guys.

The hydrant is the most damn annoying thing ever. Sonics short hops are weak and hard to hit so you rarely ever see sonic mains using SH attacks thus breaking up our ground game with the hydrant leaves us vunerable.

It's hard for a lot of sonic mains to space their run effectively. What I mean is that we will generally overshoot when sprinting and run past the opponent. Use your grab in these situations since we will most likely run into it and your grab animation last for freaking ever.

Shield sonics spin dash roll and we will just go straight through it. Most sonics will be left clueless if they can't spin dash you. Or just throw your fruit. If sonic doesn't charge his spin dash, pretty much anything will out prioritize it. Only if it's fully charged will you need a stronger fruit than like the apple or whatever.

And please please please don't try to pull off the bell stun thing. Any competent sonic will be able to dodge it easy cuz it's freakin sonic. It's just disrespectful. Unless you pull it off. Then pound that noob into never playing sonic again.

TLDR: always have a hydrant out. Grab sonics who overshoot their run. Shield constantly and try to punish. Use fruits to stop spin dashes

 

[Nu~]

I'll make sure to come up with tons of bell setups just for you

 

[Funkermonster]

2 days for one character? Doesn't that seem a little bit too short and undercooked?

And while Sonic is my 2ndary, I don't think I can give much input due to my limited experience. I barely encounter any other Pac-Men at all, and all the ones I have met come from For Glory, and I Have yet to actually find a good one. And as Pac-Man I have yet to find another Sonic that's actually impressive.

I don't find myself a professional with either character anyway. Wish I could help.

 

[Nu~]

Alright, I'm extending it to 5 days for each character. Last 2 days will be for summary and final arguments (since I know our opinions clash a lot)

This matchup feels very even to me. We really screw up his ground game with hydrants and trampolines, with melons to break the spin dash. We also beat him in the air. What makes this even though, is that he can rush us down pretty well, and can really give us a run for our money up close with his spin dash strings if we can't keep him out fast enough. I fight a solid sonic every weekend, and we both find the matchup hard and annoying lol
50:50

 

[BSP]

I'm pretty sure Sonic can run right through a grounded hydrant. It's not that effective at keeping him off of you, and a spin dash roll -> spin dash jump should send it flying pretty easily.

I can't give an extensive summary since I haven't played the MU offline enough, but I do feel that it's even at best for Pac-Man. I would lean towards Sonic's favor because:

He can run through your grounded hydrant. It doesn't give much protection. Good Sonic players will run at you more than spin dash since he's got a lot more options when he's running.
He can be wherever he wants, whenever he wants. Massive mobility advantage over us.
His grab game is scary and he has KO throws. If Sonic gets the lead and rage, we are in trouble.
I'm pretty sure his jab is slightly faster, and his tilts are overall better for CQC. Of course, having a grab helps too.
If Sonic runs up to us and shields, our only consistent method of beating it is up B'ing on top of him. If he moves before we do it though, we're getting punished and it's hard to keep him off afterwards.

The pros for Pac-Man:

At least trampoline does completely disrupt his ground game. However, Homing attack is the perfect move to punish us for trampolining away, and it does 12% + safe / mixup on block if he misses.

Sonic's landing options are pretty awkward, and outside of spring -> dair or some variation thereof, his landing options are pretty bad. We can try to juggle him, but we're not exactly fast in the air ourselves.

Most of the fruits clank with spin dash. You may be hard pressed with finding time to charge them though.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Charging Bonus Fruit can absorb homing attack IIRC.

 

[Nu~]

Utilt cleanly beats HA

 

[bekindrewind]

Utilt cleanly beats HA

Does it have to be timed perfectly or would you just start throwing utilts out?

 

[Nu~]

Does it have to be timed perfectly or would you just start throwing utilts out?

Utilt is a bit disjointed, but you do have to time pretty well. It has invincibility starting on frame 5 though, so it shouldn't be too hard

 

[Pacack]

If we play it carefully, I think I could make a good argument on us having a slight advantage. Like, 55:45, maybe.

 

[Nu~]

If we play it carefully, I think I could make a good argument on us having a slight advantage. Like, 55:45, maybe.

Agreed. We really screw up his approach options. Unlike villager, he can't weave through our traps easily (except hydrant)

The matchup becomes absolutely horrible for sonic with lazy fruit...

I know many have written off lazy fruit in the past...but this custom is pretty damn amazing. Definitely one of the best custom moves we have.
Since every fruit travels at a nice and powerful 3 mph, they are all easy to pick up and immediately start using z drop setups.
This is the fun part.
With quick access to z drop, we can cover every approach with hydrant gushed fruit. All of our normally unsafe moves become safe (Even grab and side B) because the opponent can't punish you with fruit covering your end lag.
This makes it incredibly easy for us to switch to rushdown against opponents with an answer to fruit (rosa and yoshi come to mind)

But there's more potential than that. I know opponents can easily just pick up the fruit...but only if left unattended. You can walk on top of your fruit to create a hitbox around you whenever you need to go in, or stay away (this makes the matchup for little Mac an easy 90-10 since he will never get in)
Every fruit also covers ledge options incredibly well because they linger for years.
This easily puts the matchup against most rushdown characters in our favor. It reminds me of mega man's pellets in how you control a wall the entire match, only our fruit cover more options in exchange for less spammibility.
Also, Galaxian is a monster.
Shreds shields and protects us from all projectile spam.

Also, has anybody else tried approaching with SH air dodge into nair? Our air dodge end lag is a LOT less than other characters. We can approach with SH air dodges into various attacks, giving us an invincible approach if the opponent doesn't anticipate it.

 

[Pacack]

Agreed. We really screw up his approach options. Unlike villager, he can't weave through our traps easily (except hydrant)

The matchup becomes absolutely horrible for sonic with lazy fruit...

However, if Sonic gains momentum, he will be incredibly hard to shut down. Ergo the closeness.

 

[Nu~]

However, if Sonic gains momentum, he will be incredibly hard to shut down. Ergo the closeness.

oooo...I know this all too well. There are few things worse than fighting a sonic who caught you slipping.
It's just that we force him to play our game, which really puts him out of his comfort zone. He has to win the mind game...which is hard against the creative strategies of Pac-Man

 

[Jay-kun]

Hmmmm
hmm
hmm

I got nothing,,,,,Sonic wrecks Pacman

 

[Nu~]

Hmmmm
hmm
hmm

I got nothing,,,,,Sonic wrecks Pacman

Maybe your pac-man. But definitely not pac-man as a character.

 

[Jay-kun]

Maybe your pac-man. But definitely not pac-man as a character.

nice one u funny!

P.S. You got the wording opposite
P.S.S. Just noticed u out "your" in bold haha feeling cocky, son?

 

[Pacack]

nice one u funny!

P.S. You got the wording opposite
P.S.S. Just noticed u out "your" in bold haha feeling cocky, son?

No fighting, please. Though I am curious; why do you think Pac-Man has no chance? Like, list some reasons.

 

[Jay-kun]

No fighting, please. Though I am curious; why do you think Pac-Man has no chance? Like, list some reasons.

Sure.
1. Probably the most important is how Sonic can so easily close the neutral game at the start of a match; also when you are in the air, you have few options and even those are choppy.
2. Combos. If you already didn't know, lighter characters are KOed easier vertically, vice versa for heavies. Around certain %'s Sonic can true combo you u-air -> spring -> u-air OR up-throw -> spring -> u-air. This is also a problem when Sonic juggles you.
3. If you have played Sonic, he kind of feels light. Almost EXACTLY like Pacman. Their air speed is somewhat similar and Sonic's first jump is high(?)- shenanigans Abandago does with charge bonus fruit -> air-dodge cancelled hydrant are usually around his second jump OR around the middle of FD ground to the screen boundary will be counter immediately.
4. Lack of a spike. Pacman with a lack of a noteworthy spike is very frustrating, though this can be made up by stagespiking via hydrant, bell (others as well).
5. Recovery. Sonic's recovery is pretty well off considering he can home to you with certain conditions. Using side-b as a recovery is fine until it reaches the point where there is ending lag be4 you ledge grab/ you also have to rely on up-special. Y'all know about our up-special. Period
6. Laggy specials. Easy to understand.not much to elaborate on.
7. Projectile stopping down-special/side-special. Yaaaaa sucks right?
8. MINDGAMES! Pacman has no exclusive mindgame except for shied-canceling/airdodge canceling charge fruit. Retreating fairs suck for Pacman. SONIC ON DA ADUR HAND: run up. roll back. :/ (not really "exclusive" but more reliable for fast characters.) Also very annoying: shield-cancled(?) down-speicals/side-specials(?) idk..that sound plus the spinning animation plus the forewarning of a combo is irritating.


NOTE: I don't play Sonic so this is from random matches w/ him. The problem might be directly in my playstyle.

P.S. Please make a list of advantages our round-yellow-pelleteatin' friend has against sanic TY!!~<3
THE END?

 

[BlackPhantom]

For those of you saying pacman's hydrant and trampoline screws up his options, sonic still has spinshot which can be used to approach over trampoline and above the hydrant and its water, so unless ur playing super defensive we have a slight advantage.

@ Funkermonster Really wish I could play you, but I only have the 3ds version. I have never faced a good pacman

 

[Nu~]

For those of you saying pacman's hydrant and trampoline screws up his options, sonic still has spinshot which can be used to approach over trampoline and above the hydrant and its water, so unless ur playing super defensive we have a slight advantage.

Which can be punished on landing.

 

[BSP]

Spinshot isn't an attack, it's basically a massive air dash at the cost of Sonic's double jump. I completely forgot about it, and it is a big deal. Sonic can effortlessly stay in our face when you throw in spinshotting combined with his already insane speed.

@ Jay-kun Pac-Man and Sonic aren't light. They're both a little bit lighter than Mario IIRC.

 

[PacDaddy]

I've played a couple of really good sonics, and I really don't see how this mu favors us at all. A good sonic can put so much pressure on pacman, there isn't much we can do. Hydrant and trampoline really aren't that great of spacing options because he can just spin shot over them, and good luck trying to charge fruit when sonic is on you like white on rice.

The ****ty part is, when you can buy a little space, charging up to apple is about as far as you can get before sonic is back on you and apple doesn't stop spindash. I'm with BSP on this one, I think sonic has too much mobility and speed, and our usual answers to rushdown characters aren't nearly as effective against sonic. I'm leaning 45:55 in sonic's favor.

 

[Nu~]

Oh, right. Mixed up the terms. Yeah, this seems to be 45:55 (with customs off)
even though the same rules apply when he spin shots over the trampoline...he's in the air.
Giving us an opportunity to punish his landing. We are also the one of the few characters that can punish his spin dash OoS (trampoline). Homing attack is nearly useless against us because if we charge BF, it homes in on the fruit. Not us

 

[revengeska]

I'm gonna say 40:60 for now, based on my experiences. It could end up a bit worse in the long run. A good Sonic will be able to bait you and punish all day because he's so fast. We have to rely on prediction to stay in the game, but luckily Pacman kills a lot easier.

With good timing, I have had some success with using side-b's super armor to beat the homing attack and spin dash moves. It's difficult, but once they're around 100%+ it will only take one good shot to deliver a kill. Same idea with Pacman's smashes since they're all disjointed and rangey, though every time you whiff you're getting punished.

 

[Nu~]

Our grab catches spin dash. Throwing out hitboxes is a great way to combat his approaches.
Also, Battlefield is a great counterpick against sonic.

Okay, so sonic can spin dash through the hydrant, but he's forced to take to the skies if he wants to approach us from the other side of the trampoline. Homing attack is beaten by usmash, utilt, and automatically homes in on charging BF.
But...what if you placed your hydrants on top of your trampolines? Then our hydrant becomes viable again since sonic is forced up if he tries to spin dash through it. Then we can use the slow bounce technique (bair--> jab) on the hydrant to deter any ground approach. Sonic can weave through our traps...but only individually. When combined, it's much harder for him to rush in without being forced to approach unsafely.
Hence why I say this matchup is 45:55 sonic's favor or 50:50



Just a mixture of theory craft and experience from fighting a solid sonic every weekend. It's the matchup I have the most experience in besides diddy.

 

[Jay-kun]

Spinshot isn't an attack, it's basically a massive air dash at the cost of Sonic's double jump. I completely forgot about it, and it is a big deal. Sonic can effortlessly stay in our face when you throw in spinshotting combined with his already insane speed.

@ Jay-kun Pac-Man and Sonic aren't light. They're both a little bit lighter than Mario IIRC.

i never said they were :/ :/ :/
I said they FEEL light OK!!!!!
they FEEL light!!!
reminds me of DEATHNOTE

 

[Jay-kun]

Our grab catches spin dash. Throwing out hitboxes is a great way to combat his approaches.
Also, Battlefield is a great counterpick against sonic.

Okay, so sonic can spin dash through the hydrant, but he's forced to take to the skies if he wants to approach us from the other side of the trampoline. Homing attack is beaten by usmash, utilt, and automatically homes in on charging BF.
But...what if you placed your hydrants on top of your trampolines? Then our hydrant becomes viable again since sonic is forced up if he tries to spin dash through it. Then we can use the slow bounce technique (bair--> jab) on the hydrant to deter any ground approach. Sonic can weave through our traps...but only individually. When combined, it's much harder for him to rush in without being forced to approach unsafely.
Hence why I say this matchup is 45:55 sonic's favor or 50:50



Just a mixture of theory craft and experience from fighting a solid sonic every weekend. It's the matchup I have the most experience in besides diddy.

ur bias.

 

[Nu~]

ur bias.

There's a difference between optimism and bias my friend

 

[Jay-kun]

There's a difference between optimism and bias my friend

haha no i just replied to get ur attention (get rekt)
but- your reasoning is actually kind of bias cause u base it on fighting ur Sanic friend on weekends, yes?
BUT- I really meant to say that u are bias toward @ revengeska because we both basically stated that Sanic rekts Paccy(!) and u just reply to MY post saying that it might be because of MY Pacman.
OF COURSE
you could just have learned from your mistakes from replying to me and decided not to reply to @ revengeska
das alright

 

[Nu~]

haha no i just replied to get ur attention (get rekt)
but- your reasoning is actually kind of bias cause u base it on fighting ur Sanic friend on weekends, yes?
BUT- I really meant to say that u are bias toward @ revengeska because we both basically stated that Sanic rekts Paccy(!) and u just reply to MY post saying that it might be because of MY Pacman.
OF COURSE
you could just have learned from your mistakes from replying to me and decided not to reply to @ revengeska
das alright

I just used that as extra credibility. No one would take me seriously if I didn't state the fact that I've actually fought good sonics. And I'm not biased towards him, I just decided to nullify the entire exaggeration that "we can't do anything while fighting sonic "
Instead of just replying to one person again. That doesn't help in the long run.

 

[revengeska]

haha no i just replied to get ur attention (get rekt)
but- your reasoning is actually kind of bias cause u base it on fighting ur Sanic friend on weekends, yes?
BUT- I really meant to say that u are bias toward @ revengeska because we both basically stated that Sanic rekts Paccy(!) and u just reply to MY post saying that it might be because of MY Pacman.
OF COURSE
you could just have learned from your mistakes from replying to me and decided not to reply to @ revengeska
das alright

40:60 is still defined as a "slight disadvantage". 35:65 is a "moderate disadvantage". That's far from getting rekt. Sonic is probably one of Pacman's worst matchups, so I'm just trying to be reasonable with the analysis, but Pacman certainly has his advantages too, it's far from an unwinnable matchup.

 

[Jay-kun]

40:60 is still defined as a "slight disadvantage". 35:65 is a "moderate disadvantage". That's far from getting rekt. Sonic is probably one of Pacman's worst matchups, so I'm just trying to be reasonable with the analysis, but Pacman certainly has his advantages too, it's far from an unwinnable matchup.

"bait you and punish you all day because he's so fast" -revengeska
Where can I find these definitions for these ratios? Please post a link. Thank you.

 

[revengeska]

"bait you and punish you all day because he's so fast" -revengeska
Where can I find these definitions for these ratios? Please post a link. Thank you.

I'll link to the Rosalina matchup thread initial post, since they use a pretty standard definition: http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-vs-r-o-b.380230/