P:M2.6 Lucas

[NoDes]

i was super sad when i found out that Lucas was given his Brawl Bair and Dair back, specifically his Dair (i actually like his old dair with the new mechanics). P:M Lucas's Dair was one of his defining traits imo. the uSmash nerf is displeasing as well.

 

[Juushichi]

For the longest time P:M Lucas' dair WAS his Brawl Dair. The character has been around since 1.0.

 

[Shell]

We will be watching how players use both the "new" Bair and Dair as v2.6 progresses. There were pretty evenly split opinions on them in the BR and we decided the best thing to do would be to let everyone try them out in a public release. If it turns out that either of the new moves is not in Lucas's or PM's best long term interest nothing is set in stone. For now, though, play as if this is the final release.

 

[NoDes]

For the longest time P:M Lucas' dair WAS his Brawl Dair. The character has been around since 1.0.

im one of the new kids around here so 2.5 and 2.5b are my first;;;

 

[Burnsy]

I'm not sure how long you have spent with the new changes, but I can say that for myself and several other Lucas mains I speak with regularly, 2.6's changes were initially met with some confusion and immediate dislike. It was kinda like "these moves were pretty solid in 2.5, why change them"?

After they had enough time to change their game plan to more appropriately integrate the new moves into their playstyle, everyone I've spoken with says the new aerials have grown on then and they consider them an improvement in terms of usefulness.

 

[Lukingordex]

I though 2.6 bair would be useless because the brawl one is really slow and the hitbox is really small,but it's faster on P:M and it has much more hitboxes,making it super useful now.

 

[Eisen]

Literally 2.6 bair is definitely superior. It has the option to be both a meteor AND a kill move like 2.5 bair was. Also, while I initially was sad that Lucas changed from 2.5 (the first demo I REALLY started playing), I'm definitely in love with 2.6 bair now. 2.5's was just about as slow/fast, not tons more powerful, and also had less range. At least, its overall hitbox didn't cover as much space as 2.6's. Further, it's actually nice to have Lucas with a unique bair. It makes him feel all the more stylish, and I feel it's somewhat a defining characteristic of Lucas himself. Like, how many characters have a bair that's even close to 2.6 Lucas bair? That's right, none. We need less Spacie-esque bairs and moar 2.6 Lucas bair.

As for dair, again i think it makes him unique, and it's honestly a much more stylish move. And, this could just be how I play, but I find it's very useful for pressuring compared to 2.5 dair. djc-ing 2.6 dair seems to be a really nice option, though I can't say I'm an expert on all the technical aspects of it.

I just really can't stress enough how disappointed I'd be if 2.5 bair and dair retuned. 2.5's dair hitbox and animation felt wonky to me, too generic, and too... simple. Lucas isn't really simple. Think about how much you can do with 2.6 dair versus 2.5 just because of how much longer the animation lasts. With Lucas' momentum shenanigans, it makes for a lot of coverage where it's needed. Same for 2.6 bair and its larger range of motion.

I honestly don't see where 2.5's aerials were in any way more beneficial, save for bair being a slightly better kill move. Like I mentioned though, there were drawbacks to that killing power. And besides, with fair buffed, dacus/u-smash still being good, and dair (at least in my experience thus far) being godlike, what's the point? Reverting to 2.5 moves imo would cripple Lucas' options and areas of effectiveness, thus whittling his playstyle down to simplicity.

In summary, Lucas in 2.5 felt too simple, too restricted. I felt like I was playing as Falco or Fox in comparison to how much more unique and stylish 2.6 Lucas feels. I really think the BR should wait until at least demo 3.0 to even consider changing these moves again. They need time to develop and I'm sure over time you'll find more Lucas mains preferring 2.6 aerials.

 

[NoDes]

I love his bAir but im not to big on his dAir much to the point where i avoid using it most of the time. it still kinda throws me off when comboing

 

[Eisen]

It's not really like 2.5 dair where you can just land it and it sends the opponent in the air to be comboed. 2.6 dair allows for stuff to be followed up on the ground like magnet or whatever else if the opponent is in the "hurt/grounded" state. I'm not sure how that works exactly, though.

Sorry if that's not helpful. Just try to not expect a free move afterwards per say and mix it up? I don't even know if I know what I'm talking about so...

 

[Burnsy]

Eisen, Bair is a spike, not a meteor. You probably meant spike.

I strongly disagree about dair not being good for sending them in the air. Try to either start hitting them at a different height, delay your fastfall, djc, or anything else that will allow you to combo the third hit IMMEDIATELY as your 2nd kick hits them into the ground. It is very possible for you to land dair in mid-combo, carry them to the ground with the first two hits, and pop them into the air on the last hit. As an example, I've even been able to "pillar" using a [dair>djc uair] X N loop. Alternatively, you could dair with them to the ground and land immediately after the 3rd hit sends them into the ground, setting up for a jab reset or segue into shine/grounded pressure.

Dair has only improved his comboability for me, I just had to think about using the move a little differently.

 

[Lukingordex]

Man,that dair is gdlk,and it's even better when it leaves a free Usmash/dacus to star KO your poor opponent.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

i send people down off stage more often with this dair than 2.5 tbh. i like the changes a lot, even though now i need to learn djc pkf with y -.- bair is really an improvement. spikes are so good

 

[Eisen]

If bair is a spike, then no contest, 2.6's is superior. I didn't think Lucas would get one with how he is currently.

Also for the record I wasn't stating that dair couldn't be used to get opponents in the air. I just was saying that it didn't always launch and wasn't singularly propertied as 2.5 dair. But now I suppose I understand why that's the case.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've been pretty vociferously opposed to 2.5 bair and dair pretty much since they were revealed. Neither of them were really necessary to the character, and honestly were kind of redundant in some ways. By and large, I'm glad to see 2.6 Lucas more or less returned to his earlier state (psi-magnet is still ridiculous, and PKT still might as well not exist, but that's another battle).

However, I'm kinda sad about the way dair is realized, now. In Brawl, it had utility as a kind of poke that came from a really bewildering angle, and picked the opponent up really well--especially when full-jumped. 2.6 Lucas doesn't have this, and move seems to have the most utility as a poor man's nair. Maybe poking by baiting upward shield angles with jumpsquat is a possibility, but by and large, it seems to not have as much utility as brawl dair.

 

[Burnsy]

I've been pretty vociferously opposed to 2.5 bair and dair pretty much since they were revealed. Neither of them were really necessary to the character, and honestly were kind of redundant in some ways. By and large, I'm glad to see 2.6 Lucas more or less returned to his earlier state (psi-magnet is still ridiculous, and PKT still might as well not exist, but that's another battle).

However, I'm kinda sad about the way dair is realized, now. In Brawl, it had utility as a kind of poke that came from a really bewildering angle, and picked the opponent up really well--especially when full-jumped. 2.6 Lucas doesn't have this, and move seems to have the most utility as a poor man's nair. Maybe poking by baiting upward shield angles with jumpsquat is a possibility, but by and large, it seems to not have as much utility as brawl dair.

I fail to see how a move that beats CC, sends at a completely different angle, has a different range of coverage, and has different followups (which are arguably easier to land) is a "poor mans Nair".

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, I was under the impression nair beat cc as well. That's really the only place where the difference would be something I'd consider relevant, since I'm talking about utility when engaging, and not necessarily when following up. As far as that goes, nair is just better for locking the opponent down and forcing them into Lucas's mix-up game. Dair is probably better when you have a guaranteed hit, but I just find better utility in nair.

 

[Burnsy]

CC was pretty effective against nair in 2.5, it should be about the same. Also, dair's repeat hitboxes refresh faster than nair's and has a stronger final hit that happens sooner. I'll have to check, but that should also mean that it is safer as a pressure move than nair.

Edit:

Dair's final hit does 4 frames of sheildstun
Nair's final, strongest aerial hit does 4 frames sheildstun
Nair's landing hit does 3 frames of sheildstun

Here are the hitboxes for range comparison
[COLLAPSE=magical psi energy in hitbox form]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[ph00tbag]

So if they have the same l-canceled lag, then they have the same SD when perfectly executed. Nair has better range, too, I think. What do we know about shield damage?

At this point, I don't really have an agenda. You've piqued my curiosity.

Still, though. I do miss the feel of vBrawl dair.

 

[Lukingordex]

Still, though. I do miss the feel of vBrawl dair.

Uh,I actually still use Dair in the same way I used on Brawl,the difference is that now I can combo into other moves now.

The sad thing is that Lucas can't d-tilt lock anymore,on brawl,sometimes when you use dair,the enemy drops on the ground and if you're fast enough,you can fast fall and them Dtilt right after you touch the ground,and them Dtilt lock them to death.

 

[ph00tbag]

You can get jab resets of dtilt, though, right?

Jab locks in Brawl were one of the most unfortunate oversights of the game's design; I much prefer the jab resets Melee is known for.

 

[666blaziken]

funny enough, I had the same initial reaction, but after playing a couple of matches, I realized what I was doing wrong. Lucas's bair should be used like falco's dair, as it will kill most players over 60%. His down-air should be used to start up combos at low percentages. If you dash and jump and do a dair, by the time the attack finishes, you can juggle with up-tilt and finish with neutral-air.

 

[666blaziken]

So if they have the same l-canceled lag, then they have the same SD when perfectly executed. Nair has better range, too, I think. What do we know about shield damage?

At this point, I don't really have an agenda. You've piqued my curiosity.

Still, though. I do miss the feel of vBrawl dair.

personally, it can be used well, but you have to be closer to the stage edge. If the opponent is recovering, start the attack right before he/she finishes, and try to use the attack like a wall of pain (except you are above the opponent, not directly sideways).

 

[Little Nemo]

Skipped reading half the thread so sorry if blah blah.
I mained Lucas and was initially sad going into 2 (my first demo) that his dair and bair were changed but QUICKLY loved them. Bair being a VERY easy to land kill move and dair being an excellent off-stage move.
Going into 2.6 I was dissappointed and continue to be even after many matches with Lucas. But I must say this is my problem and not the move's. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong but dair is so weak that I usually get punished for using it even at higher percentages and hitting with each hit and bair is impossible to hit with, let alone sweet spot. In vBrawl I haven't missed a bair in years. I was that good. But in 2.6 I can't time it right.
So I can see the benefits, especially if bair is a spike... But I feel it's too much of a trade off for the simplicity. Lucas is already a technical character. I liked having two easier moves.
Edit: Just noticed the last post was well over a month ago. I don't give two poops.

 

[Lukingordex]

Going into 2.6 I was dissappointed and continue to be even after many matches with Lucas. But I must say this is my problem and not the move's. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong but dair is so weak that I usually get punished for using it even at higher percentages and hitting with each hit and bair is impossible to hit with, let alone sweet spot. In vBrawl I haven't missed a bair in years. I was that good. But in 2.6 I can't time it right.

 

[Little Nemo]

Uuuuh?? Why the quote?

 

[Veishi336]

Well i main lucas also and from reading all you all's other post most of you seem to like his change from 2.5b to 2.6 and 2.6b. I was also disappointed as well but i practiced more and more with him until i realized how amazing his change was. The properties of his bair are wonderful. It can either be used as a spike or just a very strong knock out move in many different situations. Ive implemented it into many different combos with his dgrab and his magnet. His Dair though is a force to be reckoned with. I utilize the Dair alot when i knock other players off stage, using it as a spike. You literally, if you angle it precisely, can just seriously knock off a few stocks easily. When on the stage using Dair i usually use it like Nair. If i dont get the last hitbox of Dair to hit i can still lead up into either a grab or a magnet without being punished...if you dont watch it lol. But yea his 2.6b version is great and im enjoying him more and more each time i play with him.
Sidenote: has anyone ever thought his Air dodge into his air-Z is a good way to get back on stage. Even though the invincibility frames of the dodge leave once you do it, its still a great way to get around certain things because it has less lag then just air dodging in general. it also allows better air control when he does it... Anyone else agrees or has anyone else tried it?

 

[Lukingordex]

2.6b Lucas is amazing.

Nothing else to add.

 

[Burnsy]

Sidenote: has anyone ever thought his Air dodge into his air-Z is a good way to get back on stage. Even though the invincibility frames of the dodge leave once you do it, its still a great way to get around certain things because it has less lag then just air dodging in general. it also allows better air control when he does it... Anyone else agrees or has anyone else tried it?

Yes. I use airdodge zair as my ledgehopped aerial a pretty good percentage of the time, especially if the edgeguarder is hanging back to intercept my coming up from the ledge (Marth in particular loves to do this, and the airdodge zair can be quite effective on him).

I agree with most other things you said, although you might only find limited used of his dair as an offstage spike as you face tougher opponents. According to Calabrel, as it is apparently easy to SDI out of the final hit offstage. Also, I think that people are going to catch on that they are able to punish you if you land before the last hit of dair hits their sheild.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

ive had trouble with the djc window on his side b. its a real turn-off for me

 

[Veishi336]

Yes. I use airdodge zair as my ledgehopped aerial a pretty good percentage of the time, especially if the edgeguarder is hanging back to intercept my coming up from the ledge (Marth in particular loves to do this, and the airdodge zair can be quite effective on him).

I agree with most other things you said, although you might only find limited used of his dair as an offstage spike as you face tougher opponents. According to Calabrel, as it is apparently easy to SDI out of the final hit offstage. Also, I think that people are going to catch on that they are able to punish you if you land before the last hit of dair hits their sheild.

Im glad im not the only one who uses it. You ever just tried it when you are coming down from getting Usmashed and they try to chase you? its a nice little way to trick someone in thinking that you are going to do the full airdodge. And Yea one of my friends i played actually started to catch on and they were just a casual player...soooo yea i might need to not do it that much lol.

 

[Adeveis]

I'm not a very good player yet and I've recently started trying to get to professional level so forgive me if my information is invalid. Anyway on the topic of 2.6 lucas I can honestly say that the new b-air is greatest thing ever. All of my combos are on the fly I make them up as I go but b-air is such a good combo ender off stage, while on stage it's a cool looking extension after a psimagnet jump cancel which once the opponent is slamed to the ground you can combo if they don't tech or use a shd pkfreeze to catch them teching forward/backward which could lead to a potential kill combo. However, as far as the d-air goes I like the faster startup over the 2.5 d-air but I have trouble consistently hitting with it. I more often graze my opponent with the first two hits and whiff the third than not. I still try every now and again but I mostly just stick with the other aerials. The smaller hitbox is probably the main reason, but I'm guessing this is only a problem i'm having so if anyone has any advice please share.

 

[Burnsy]

Im glad im not the only one who uses it. You ever just tried it when you are coming down from getting Usmashed and they try to chase you? its a nice little way to trick someone in thinking that you are going to do the full airdodge. And Yea one of my friends i played actually started to catch on and they were just a casual player...soooo yea i might need to not do it that much lol.

Yea, the zair is a pretty good move in general for several reasons:

• It isn't slow
• It has a good combo trajectory
• The hitbox is on the snake's head, which obviously is very disjointed and covers a pretty respectable arc
• He can airdodge in any direction and cancel it at any time with the zair to ensure its properly spaced
• The airdodge before the zair can shift his momentum in the opposite direction, or act as a third jump. This is good for comboing.
• Last but not least, it gives him the snake combo breaker AT (dj>airdodge horizontal>zair when coming out of hitstun)

Something that is not so good about it is that it loses badly to crouch cancelling. He can mitigate his punishment in many situations if he spaces the move properly, however, thanks to it's range.

However, as far as the d-air goes I like the faster startup over the 2.5 d-air but I have trouble consistently hitting with it. I more often graze my opponent with the first two hits and whiff the third than not. I still try every now and again but I mostly just stick with the other aerials. The smaller hitbox is probably the main reason, but I'm guessing this is only a problem i'm having so if anyone has any advice please share.

I think that this will become easier once you get a better handle on spacing and Lucas' aerial control. I wouldn't be able to tell unless I saw a video, but it may be that you are overshooting or weaving away from them once you start hitting them. If you are catching them with it in the air, you need keep going in the direction you are moving in

[collapse="Dair"]

[/collapse]

There are two sets of overlapping hitbubbles for dair. The ones that send downward only work on grounded opponents. Its what makes cc ineffective against this move. The other hitbubbles have the "autolink" angle and only works on aerial opponents. Note that the third hit is the same regardless of whether the opponent is grounded or in the air.

From smash wiki:
The autolink angle is a special knockback angle programmed into certain attacks in Brawl. While it reads in the game data as an angle of 365 degrees, the game treats it rather differently - instead, targets are sent in whatever direction the attacker is moving.

 

[Adeveis]

I think that this will become easier once you get a better handle on spacing and Lucas' aerial control. I wouldn't be able to tell unless I saw a video, but it may be that you are overshooting or weaving away from them once you start hitting them. If you are catching them with it in the air, you need keep going in the direction you are moving in.

I see well unfortunately I won't be uploading videos until November as the earliest so I guess that's as much help as you can give but still appreciated. If your right about it being a spacing issue then I should just use it more until I get a handle on it. Aside from the size, I can see why it could potentially be more useful than n-air. On another note, having an air dodge to z is an amazing recovery option. I always thought Lucas's recovery was way better than ness's but this is just so awesome. It's pretty much a go to option for me of course unless pkthunder2 is the only way back. With the tether system and invincible frames it's pretty difficult to edgeguard. Still I can't help but feel there is a major fault to this recovery and a good player can easily punish it. Please tell me I'm just being paranoid and there is no overwhelming option any character/player has against it.

 

[Burnsy]

I play a lot of very good players regularly (Heysuess for example took 9th at LTC, a recent major P:M tourny) and I don't think that the tether is as vulnerable of a recovery as it may seem initially. There is a lot you can do to mix-up and avoid gimps.

Some might think that hogging the ledge while you are on your tether will give them a free hit. This is because if you reel in while they hog you are forced to jump, but even in this situation there are things you can do to juke your opponent (you have options other than reeling). The scariest thing to avoid is getting shine-spiked by Fox, but again even this can be avoided through tether-tricks, it is just difficult because of how fast his shine is.

 

[Veishi336]

Yea, the zair is a pretty good move in general for several reasons:

• It isn't slow
• It has a good combo trajectory
• The hitbox is on the snake's head, which obviously is very disjointed and covers a pretty respectable arc
• He can airdodge in any direction and cancel it at any time with the zair to ensure its properly spaced
• The airdodge before the zair can shift his momentum in the opposite direction, or act as a third jump. This is good for comboing.
• Last but not least, it gives him the snake combo breaker AT (dj>airdodge horizontal>zair when coming out of hitstun)

Something that is not so good about it is that it loses badly to crouch cancelling. He can mitigate his punishment in many situations if he spaces the move properly, however, thanks to it's range.

Yea i witnessed the crouch cancel thing happen also.....sheesh...smh that was not fun it was just a free punish

 

[Calabrel]

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm going to not comment on 2.1 Lucas or prior due to how far he's come since then. Any comparisons I make without specifying are between 2.6b and 2.5b Lucas.

I purposefully avoided making public comments about 2.6 Lucas because I didn't want to, as a relatively public Lucas main and PMBR member who helped develop 2.6 Lucas, influence others opinions on him. I figure a good two+ months is long enough however and wish to add my thoughts to the discussion.

2.6 Lucas is undoubtedly more viable. I've read all the posts of this thread as well as other random places such as Reddit or on Live streams, it's mostly universal. One thing I find common on said discussion is attributing this fact to 2.6 bair and dair, which is the point of my post here, but first I wish to clarify something I feel is important. No one or two moves has made Lucas more viable, and if you want my opinion, the improvement that made Lucas more viable than any other in 2.6 is his improved fair, which can still be djc-d extremely early, comes out extremely fast with disjoint, theoretically is the best vs. shield option, and has both combo and kill potential. Other notable changes to make him more viable include:

• Tether reel invulnerability on the head (notice not being poked by Marth d-tilt during reel anymore?)
• Much better nair due to the hitboxes being redone to be more consistent.
• Multiple down-b changes that make linking the hits better including the final, launching, hitbox
• Fixed his powershield reflect.
• d-tilt shield poking better

Okay, now that that is out of the way let us talk about bair and dair. 2.6 bair is a move heralded as the saving grace of 2.6 Lucas, and it is very good, being a true spike and also a horizontal launcher , albeit not as strong as 2.5's horizontal launching ability. It's true power, compared to 2.5, comes with how much faster the hitbox comes out and it being a sweeping motion, instead of a single, small hitbox. Remember that description, because it's about to be very important.

It's for that very reason that 2.6 dair is vastly inferior to 2.5 dair. Let's first talk about to good qualities of 2.6 dair, it's a pretty good move on the ground. Against CC'ing it's a great move, not that Lucas had any trouble with CC'ing (pkf, cross-up nair, 2.5 dair). You can even do neat tricks that work on some characters at some percent by djc dair to put them in a stunned state, although d-tilt already did this and more, but you can launch people from the ground to combo/usmash, something 2.5 dair already did, but it did it even faster, with much less time for your opponent to DI, and that's if they don't SDI out of it, which admittedly is harder to do on the ground. So in summation, 2.6 dair works great on the ground, but doesn't do anything that 2.5 dair/d-tilt couldn't do and it does 2.5 dairs things much slower.

Now let's discuss 2.6 dair in the air, and by “in the air" I mean your opponent is in the air just to clarify. This is where this move is mostly useless against a competent opponent. The first two hits of 2.6 dair do little to actually push your opponent down, it's not supposed to because you want to get that third, launching, hit to send your opponent downwards. An extremely competent opponent will just SDI the first one or two hits to avoid the third hit, it's not difficult to do if you expect the dair, and if they have their double-jump remaining, they can even punish you before IASA of 2.6 dair. In private conversation with various Lucas players defending 2.6 dair, they will say things like “You can just follow their DI, or just start the move early so only the third hit lands." The first point doesn't even make sense to me, Lucas isn't Wario or Jigglypuff, he cannot change momentum quickly in the air without utilizing his double-jump and he can't double-jump until IASA of dair. Besides that though, the thing that's most baffling to me about people defending 2.6 dair that way is that they're simply compensating for the move already being worse than a single launching hit.

Even if the player either is not able to SDI out of the launching hit or perhaps you compensated for the move being worse and do actually get that launching hit we get to my second point about why 2.6 dair isn't good; it just takes too long. I established earlier that it's the launching hit you want with 2.6 dair. The reason, of course, is that you want to send the opponent either to his death (off-stage) or to the ground (on-stage). Dair can't actually be used as a pillar combo, not without gross mistiming of techs, but anyone who is able to tech on a semi-consistent basis can easily tech the move. This of course being different from Falco who, with knockback stacking, can easily fast-fall past the person he launched to the ground and shine before they get an opportunity to tech. When you meteor with a character, for it to be successful, you have to have the element of surprise on your side. Meteor canceling (off-stage) or teching (on-stage), will negate the desired effect of the meteor, and because the launching hit takes so long for 2.6 dair, your opponent can practically count 1-2-3 before they need to tech or meteor cancel.

I joined PMBR in April and immediately I was shown the 2.6 bair/dair with Lucas (bair was quite weaker, but the animation was the same). I started play testing with many types of players ranging from relatively new to much more experienced and I was just the same as many of you seem to be in this very thread when you speak of 2.6 dair. But it didn't take me long to realize that dairs effectiveness diminished to the point of near uselessness when they understood the matchup, they understood that the move is nothing to fear because it's so premeditated. Axe, Oksas, and I due to the experience we have in the matchup SDI out of the launching hit regularly to the point that I don't even bother to use it against them in the air, and Lucas has always had better options against grounded opponents. So I rarely use it anymore. I have done a lot of research on 2.6 Lucas as a PMBR member, and even videos online I rarely see Lucas players attempt to use dair in the air on-stage, and less rarely, but still significantly rare off-stage. Part of the reason for this, I know, is how effective of a move bair is.

Here's what I do know, as a relatively recognized 2.5 Lucas main, I felt 2.5 dair was his best aerial, one of his best moves. I hear from other Lucas mains, post 2.5, that 2.5 dair was near useless, but one look at my 2.5 combo video, in which I landed it over 40 times in the video and it's utilized in over half my combos I feel prove otherwise. My argument isn't so much 2.5 dair was better, even though I feel that it was, no, my argument is that 2.6 dair is nearly useless against a competent opponent.

As stated earlier, 2.6 Lucas, from a PMBR perspective, was supposed to gauge player support for the bair and dair and ultimately see what the players want for Lucas moving forward; I am committed to that. I just want to, hopefully, help bring perspective to the discussion and perhaps awareness at what actually makes 2.6 Lucas better. I believe we all want future Lucas to be the most fun, competitive version of Lucas we can possibly make.

 

[Burnsy]

Calabrel, you make a lot of good points, and I'm not going to detract from what you said about SDI against the aerial dair (not sure why you expect it to push them down though, that clearly isn't how the vs. air hitboxes work).

However, I disagree with your assertion that it is near useless against a competent opponent (on-stage) and plan to prove you wrong with video evidence as soon as I can.

For what its worth for now, Oracle is also a relatively recognized 2.5 & 2.6 Lucas with good tournament results, and last time I spoke with him I believe he told me that he saw 2.6 dair as better overall when you take his entirety of his 2.6 moveset.

 

[Nemiak temp]

2.5 Dair tha bess. I don't completely agree with 2.6 Dair being useless as it can catch people off guard and lead to some nasty ups mashes (or off stage "gimps"). But that's kind of the problem. It's only a sub par mixup. Can't use it as a spacing tool like 2.5 dair, can't really combo with it unless your opponent is ass. Very happy about not getting poked in the eye when tethering to ledge now though.

 

[Adeveis]

I honestly like 2.5 d-air way better than 2.6, after reading this thread I figured 2.6 d-air was way better than I originally thought. However, Calabrel makes an excellent point on how it's not truly all that useful. I do just fine coming in with n-airs, spacing with f-airs, and finishing off with b-airs. 2.6 d-air does have it's perks like easier to combo off of, being good against cc and spiking/meteoring (don't know which or the difference), but it's near impossible to hit consistently with it (imo). I do miss 2.5 d-air but Lucas's other aerials more than make up for not having it.

 

[Lukingordex]

But but

I looooooooove 2.6 Dair,it's really nifty and fits my personality :[