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Omni: Should We Still Use Custom Moves in Smash 4?

LiteralGrill

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Omni is back yet again with a vlog discussing Smash! Evo 2015 has passed, and the hot button topic for Smash 4 ruleset discussion is most definitely custom moves. Many people know Omni for some of the vlogs he has released including Diddy Is Innocent, Why Smash 4 Will Die, Why You Should Pick A Top Tier and others. This most recent vlog has him giving his opinions on custom moves going into the future. Give it a view and let us know those thoughts in the comments below!


SmashCapps has a lot of his own opinions on customs and is glad to see some good debate going on. To get his feelings on the subject follow him on Twitter.
 

Space Stranger

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Is it wrong that I only click on these articles for Omni's derp face in the thumbnail?

I don't really care for customs enough to support either side. I just want to play Smash.
 

Pyr

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Customs, Omni, and Smashboards comments? The comments section of this doesn't stand a chance.

Skimming through, though, he's got fair points, and he's got points I disagree with. Taken with a grain of salt, because of the source, though.
 
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KayB

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Oh boy, more clickbait! My favorite!
This one wasn't really clickbait; he had a clear topic in mind and spoke about it, and his title reflected that topic well. Clickbait insinuates that the title/picture/whatever prompted you into watching the video had nothing to do with the content itself for the sole sake of attracting more viewers.

Omni makes very fair points in this video, and it isn't fair to boil it down to a clickbait.
 
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Jehtt

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This one wasn't really clickbait; he had a clear topic in mind, and his title reflected that topic well. Clickbait insinuates that the title/picture/whatever prompted you into watching the video had nothing to do with the content itself for the sake of disingenuously attracting more viewers.

Omni makes very fair points in this video, and its not fair to boil it down to a clickbait.
I guess it's not as bad as the last 3, but this video is just repeating what everyone has already been saying on reddit and twitter and smashboards for the past several months. I just don't understand the point is. Maybe I'm being too judgmental after the bad taste his other videos have left in my mouth, but eh...
 

Globe

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I didn't watch the video (and honestly I probably wont), but I feel that even though there's really wack set ups/customs in general. I do feel like customs do make a bunch of more characters viable. (Didn't we almost get to see the whole cast during EVO live stream?)
 

Mr Moosebones

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I didn't watch the video (and honestly I probably wont), but I feel that even though there's really wack set ups/customs in general. I do feel like customs do make a bunch of more characters viable. (Didn't we almost get to see the whole cast during EVO live stream?)
Implying you wouldn't have seen those characters without customs? Lots of the characters who showed up on stream didn't win a single game. It doesn't really prove anything to be honest.
 
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mario123007

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Sometimes I feel most custom move are even more worse then standard moves, and they do need a lot of practice cuz you might just can't get used to the move.

I do agreed that custom moves can shape up the MU a bit. And it's worth a try if you want to compete with top tier characters.
 

Kotastic

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I agree with Omni for the most part with customs.

However, I can easily see this game being thrown to the trash bin when the next Smash game comes out, and at that point people will get bored to the perfected Smash 4 meta and will want something fresh. That's when customs steps in as a kinda side thing and it might get more positive reaction than right now because it's out of the norm and then the customs' meta will be pushed to the main stage, thus increasing the game's longevity.

Or I could be completely wrong and none of that happens.
 

KayB

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I guess it's not as bad as the last 3, but this video is just repeating what everyone has already been saying on reddit and twitter and smashboards for the past several months. I just don't understand the point is. Maybe I'm being too judgmental after the bad taste his other videos have left in my mouth, but eh...
To be fair, the whole customs argument is a disorganized mess as of right now that hasn't reached any solid conclusion. Omni's video does a good job of summarizing some popular views of both sides while giving his own input. He also does it in a very calm and collected way, which already makes his argument a thousand times better than most users I see on reddit/SWF/whatever.

It's a fine video, and it also shows that he's learned from the mistakes of his past content by how polite he seems in this segment.
 

T0MMY

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Evo was bad for customs, but not for the reasons we thought.
Sure, the jank was there, but worse than that was after all it took to get them set up they were generally not used; additionally they did virtually nothing to balance the game nor make it any more exciting than CEO (which had a lot of exciting matches from a variety of characters).

Shoving customs into the rules for such a newly released game so soon was a bad move. Not enough meta developed for it to show it off, most people unfamiliar with it, those who were familiar with it were looking to profit off jank, and not everyone has unlocked all the custom parts to make it easily used.
My suggestion was to allow customs to be slowly introduced as the basic meta staled out so we had something fresh to look forward to later.

Too soon. Hope the rash decision doesn't kill the option completely. Could be a fun side event.
 

Nidtendofreak

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How to get the customs you need on your Wii U with ZERO grinding:

1) Take your Wii U to a tournament that uses customs. There is an extremely high chance that they used a 3DS to port over all of the sets.

2) Quickly plug your Wii U into one of the TV, ask the TO to port over the sets on their "Master" 3DS to your Wii U

3) You now have access to all of the major sets for every characters. Repeat once every 6-12 months, however often the "Master List" ends up getting updated

If your area uses customs, you should have no problems getting the custom sets that you need yourself.
 

Tornado

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In my opinion, some customs can make matches lame, and others can just make it feel like any other match, just with a different moveset. I don't think all characters can benefit from customs though so when the smash team had to come up with what customs each character could have, some may have been obvious and others may have been pretty hard ones to think up (little mac for example. He punches. What else is there?).

I don't think there will be a ban on customs in the future. It will purely be on the TO at tournaments. Some will allow customs, some will not.
 

RoyIsOurBoy_TTG

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They need to keep using custom moves so that way the game will be a little less boring...*Kappa*
 
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9Tales

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I just came here to ask everyone why we care about the opinion of a guy who told us our game was going to die. Not bothering to even watch his bull...
 

T0MMY

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There is no "ban" on customs
We need reason before we change the rules - is the Custom Fighter option adding anything significant to the competition?
No?
Then we don't turn it on - that's not a ban, that's just not using a game setting the same way we don't ban Handicap, we just don't turn it on!

Think it adds value to competition?
Turn it on.
That's not unbanning it, it's an option you can toggle on or off...

The difference in this may be lost to some of you but for us rulescrafters and competitive players it's very important because banning something without reason is being scrubby. Big difference to me!
 
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J.P

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Funny how players that are against Customs use characters that don't benefit from customs at all (Sheik. luigi, Falcon, Ness). Hypocrites much?

I just came here to ask everyone why we care about the opinion of a guy who told us our game was going to die. Not bothering to even watch his bull...
Because he is a Smash veteran who has a critical thinking and isn't blinded by his love from the game unlike you Smash 4 fanboy.
 
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TakeYourHeart

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Once again, a well thought out argument from you Omni, even if I respectfully disagree.

Customs aren't here to be their own meta, they're here to expand the vanilla one. With the amount of players who saw success at EVO using the default movesets and the ones who did not, I think it makes a compelling argument for them. It doesn't really warp the meta, but it does have a noticeable impact and led to enjoyable fights (even if certain customs need patches).

Now granted, the accessibility is an issue and online play is one as well, but I figure the likelihood of a Custom For Glory and For Fun coming is pretty high.

Striving for unity is a noble task, but is it really worth canning the potential for creativity and hurting certain characters tourney potential? My heart says no.

I say we can have both! Have our cake and eat it too!
 
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Metallinatus

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Funny how players that are against Customs use characters that don't benefit from customs at all (Sheik. luigi, Falcon, Ness). Hypocrites much?
I use Ganondorf a lot and even "mained" Palutena for a while.
I am against customs since forever.
Smash has been a game with only one moveset per character since 64 and the metagame has always been around that one moveset ─ you know that one moveset, you know the character.
Giving characters multiple possible movesets for the tournaments now will do no good on the long run....
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Customs are supposed to make things more diverse for the competition, and they do help improve some of the fighters who have some rather lousy default special moves.

For one example, Ganondorf's recovery gets an improvement if he has Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists. Similarly, Charizard can switch to Dragon Rush to avoid any damage penalties, and improve its horizontal recovery.
 

Glyphagos

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Customs change the atmosphere of Smash too much and just turn it into a Team Fortress 2 style fighting game where the entire game reflects on who has the best loadout to beat another person's custom loadout.

I will forever be against Customs.
 

kesterstudios

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here's my take on custom moves

I really hate the process of getting custom moves. in the end, I ended up buying an action replay for my 3ds to get all of them so then I could transfer the movesets to my wii u. me having to do all of that shows how annoying getting custom moves are.

I do agree with what Omni was saying about the lamness. 64, brawl, and even melee has some crazy cheap stuff in their meta.

I've always liked custom moves, ever since smash 3ds came out. customs can really make the meta game of smash wii u even more interesting. but still a lot of people don't like custom moves which is sad. I don't know if smash wii u can have 2 metas.

I don't know if we're going to have customs in the future, but as of right now, I would at least turn customs on for palutena and mii fighters (specifically mii brawlers). their moves are already unlocked from the beginning (all customs should've been unlocked from the beginning though) and it makes them more viable. seriously I don't wanna see aerolink's custom palutena gone forever.

turning customs would also make some characters less viable like dk, charizard, and especially ganondorf.

btw good video Omni, this is actually the first time I kinda agree with you. lol

and one more thing lol, but dlc characters don't have customs so that sucks.
 
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Pyr

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Customs are supposed to make things more diverse for the competition, and they do help improve some of the fighters who have some rather lousy default special moves.

For one example, Ganondorf's recovery gets an improvement if he has Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists. Similarly, Charizard can switch to Dragon Rush to avoid any damage penalties, and improve its horizontal recovery.
They were supposed to, ya. But, serious question: How did those improved options, and the more diverse options, actually do when tested in a competitive environment? For 90% of the cast, even if they became strictly better, they still fell flat and failed to get results. That means, strictly if diversity was the end goal, customs have failed.
 

MonkeyArms

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Lets be honest:
Is this video really something to be put in the news?
They were supposed to, ya. But, serious question: How did those improved options, and the more diverse options, actually do when tested in a competitive environment? For 90% of the cast, even if they became strictly better, they still fell flat and failed to get results. That means, strictly if diversity was the end goal, customs have failed.
Results mean nothing.
No matter how many results Yoshi has, he's still top 3.
 
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Overswarm

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If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Some combination of the above.

"Customs take too long to unlock" / "Tournaments can't reliably get customs"

Yeah, it's annoying, but not impossible. We have yet to have any major issues and now TWO majors have run with customs with no issues. It takes planning. First tournament in a region with customs can be rough, after that it's typically smooth sailing.

"Customs are janky / customs are too good / some other balance complaint"

Customs haven't changed player OR character results at the top level in any meaningful way. The finals of EVO was two 1111 sets, and those that used customs used only one or two per set, but the names weren't particularly surprising.

"Customs only haven't changed results because top players don't use customs"

Yes they did. More importantly, if you feel that more custom use = better placement, the same players that were predicted to make top 8 still made top 8.

"If customs don't change results, why have them in the first place?"

Because they change the game at other levels of play and allow for the possibility of more unique counterpicks and character choices.

"Customs take no skill / are spammable"

Lots of things are spammable, lots of characters are easier than others. If customs were so brain numbingly easy to use, we'd have seen results variation very quickly.

"(name of top players) are against customs"

So? Mango's a top player in Melee and he thinks Smash 4 sucks. Zero's a nice guy and is skilled and all, but he's ranted about almost everything at this point. He complained about Lucario, for pete's sake. ESAM talked about how broken thunder wave + HSB was for pikachu and the guy got 7th and lost a game to a G&W.

Top players don't know everything.

"It's not fair for other characters to get better moves when all my customs suck"

That's because 1111 is your best. You started at where they want to be.

"It's not fair to force people to get customs"

We force them to do stuff all the time. We force them to spend money on DLC now. We force them to unlock stages, characters. If they want custom sets, we can put them on their wii u via 3DS.

"It's too much for a new player to learn, too high a barrier of entry"

Melee dwarfed Smash 4's numbers on EVO's stream and it requires you to literally sit in your room and practice against a level 1 CPU for hours to even move your character properly. It's doing fine. Having to watch a youtube video on characters you don't already know won't kill anyone.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu, that Mii Brawler was broken, that Mario's Gust Cape was broken, that Wario's Fast Bike was broken, that Diddy's explosive barrels were broken, that Marth's crescent slash was broken, that Luigi's ice fireballs were broken, that Rosalina's shooting star bit and warp were broken, and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Every doom and gloom announcement around customs has been incorrect, but it doesn't matter. The people that don't want customs don't care that customs are balanced, they don't care if they bring no negative effects. They decided a long time ago that they didn't want customs and no evidence will sway them because they weren't interested in trying them in the first place.
 

TheArabSamurai

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People using Rain losing to a Villager that was planking as an excuse to ban customs.

It's Rain's fault that he lost, you lose to a player. Not to a character. Not to a game. Plenty of people beat campy villager, Nairo beat ADHD in tournament, and not to mention that the campy villager who beat Rain didn't end up making it far as he was knocked out by another player.

All the other arguments Omni made are valid though.
 

Phoenix502

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If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Some combination of the above.

[...]

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu[...] and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Every doom and gloom announcement around customs has been incorrect, but it doesn't matter. The people that don't want customs don't care that customs are balanced, they don't care if they bring no negative effects. They decided a long time ago that they didn't want customs and no evidence will sway them because they weren't interested in trying them in the first place.
okay, perhaps that last statement might be pushing extremes, but this probably sums up a majority of how I feel towards this debate.

I personally seem to get the impression that Top players "Don't enjoy facing customs" because it's a whole lot more things to adjust to... that perhaps the impression of adapting to more than what the vanilla game already has is overwhelming.

I do see the justification of complaining how much of a hassle unlocking the customs is, though. it'd be nice if Sakurai and the devs made it easier to tilt the RNG of custom items to the player's preference...
 

Mr Moosebones

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How to get the customs you need on your Wii U with ZERO grinding:

1) Take your Wii U to a tournament that uses customs. There is an extremely high chance that they used a 3DS to port over all of the sets.

2) Quickly plug your Wii U into one of the TV, ask the TO to port over the sets on their "Master" 3DS to your Wii U

3) You now have access to all of the major sets for every characters. Repeat once every 6-12 months, however often the "Master List" ends up getting updated

If your area uses customs, you should have no problems getting the custom sets that you need yourself.
This actually takes quite a long time. Like, 1 hour minimum if the TO has done it a bunch of times and doesn't have to fiddle with menus. You're being incredibly selfish to ask the TO to just take an hour out of their presumably busy schedule just to serve you.
 
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Metallinatus

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If people are against customs at this point, they're either against them because banning them would

A) give them an advantage because their best set is closer to 1111
B) give them an advantage because they would lose bad matchups
C) reduce frustrations because they don't want to learn more matchups and prefer a smaller skill and knowledge requirement
D) give them credence in their social circle

or

E) they're dumb or ignorant

Some combination of the above.

"Customs take too long to unlock" / "Tournaments can't reliably get customs"

Yeah, it's annoying, but not impossible. We have yet to have any major issues and now TWO majors have run with customs with no issues. It takes planning. First tournament in a region with customs can be rough, after that it's typically smooth sailing.

"Customs are janky / customs are too good / some other balance complaint"

Customs haven't changed player OR character results at the top level in any meaningful way. The finals of EVO was two 1111 sets, and those that used customs used only one or two per set, but the names weren't particularly surprising.

"Customs only haven't changed results because top players don't use customs"

Yes they did. More importantly, if you feel that more custom use = better placement, the same players that were predicted to make top 8 still made top 8.

"If customs don't change results, why have them in the first place?"

Because they change the game at other levels of play and allow for the possibility of more unique counterpicks and character choices.

"Customs take no skill / are spammable"

Lots of things are spammable, lots of characters are easier than others. If customs were so brain numbingly easy to use, we'd have seen results variation very quickly.

"(name of top players) are against customs"

So? Mango's a top player in Melee and he thinks Smash 4 sucks. Zero's a nice guy and is skilled and all, but he's ranted about almost everything at this point. He complained about Lucario, for pete's sake. ESAM talked about how broken thunder wave + HSB was for pikachu and the guy got 7th and lost a game to a G&W.

Top players don't know everything.

"It's not fair for other characters to get better moves when all my customs suck"

That's because 1111 is your best. You started at where they want to be.

"It's not fair to force people to get customs"

We force them to do stuff all the time. We force them to spend money on DLC now. We force them to unlock stages, characters. If they want custom sets, we can put them on their wii u via 3DS.

"It's too much for a new player to learn, too high a barrier of entry"

Melee dwarfed Smash 4's numbers on EVO's stream and it requires you to literally sit in your room and practice against a level 1 CPU for hours to even move your character properly. It's doing fine. Having to watch a youtube video on characters you don't already know won't kill anyone.

Honestly, at this point I'm done with smash. The smash community is mostly scrubs, but there's just so many now it's hard to not have your voice drowned out.

We were told that customs would be too hard to run at a regular tournament, then we did it.

We were told it'd be too hard to run at a national tournament, then we did it twice.

We were told that DK's wind up+b was broken, that thunder wave and HSB were broken for Pikachu, that Mii Brawler was broken, that Mario's Gust Cape was broken, that Wario's Fast Bike was broken, that Diddy's explosive barrels were broken, that Marth's crescent slash was broken, that Luigi's ice fireballs were broken, that Rosalina's shooting star bit and warp were broken, and NONE OF THESE MOVES have had more than a marginal effect on tournament placements.

Every doom and gloom announcement around customs has been incorrect, but it doesn't matter. The people that don't want customs don't care that customs are balanced, they don't care if they bring no negative effects. They decided a long time ago that they didn't want customs and no evidence will sway them because they weren't interested in trying them in the first place.
F) Give us a consistent game, where every character has only one moveset to go and that's it.
Do you want a game where you can pop up on a tournament with different variations of moves? Go play Pokémon.
When I play Smash I want a consistent game where Ganondorf will always be Ganondorf, AND HE IS MY SECOND MOST USED CHARACTER.

PS: I miss the time where bigger "skill and knowledge requirement" meant more techniques to learn and not more movesets for the characters because "OMG more moves totally make the game harder".
I just want a consistent game where Ganondorf will always be Ganondorf.
 
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