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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
~Twitch~
Smash Master
because he can.
Pita
Smash Apprentice
Seems like a pretty good tier list. Much better than that "Negligible tier" stuff where all the characters in any given tier are considered equal.
It's also kinda good that Samus dropped slightly, since her matchups aren't really that good, and this takes that into account.
It's also kinda good that Samus dropped slightly, since her matchups aren't really that good, and this takes that into account.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Okay.
Let's say I have a game with n characters and I have a match-up chart with the characters for that game; since there are some slight variations in what a match-up chart's numbers mean, let's say the number in the row for character A and column for character B represents A's chance of beating B in a bo3 set using current tournament rules, assuming both players of each character are at the top level of play and know the match-up. I want to rank the characters solely based on how they perform against each other; an intuitive idea about how to do this would be to have the match-ups against characters that seem "good" in some sense count more than the match-ups against other characters. To make this more precise, we do the following:
First, label the characters c_1, c_2, ..., c_n and create an nxn matrix P whose i,j-th entry is c_i's chance of beating c_j, taken from the match-up chart; let p_i,j denote the i,j-th entry of P. As a first approximation for how good the characters are, we look at p_i,1 + p_i,2 + ... + p_i,n for each i between 1 and n, i.e. for each character, we find the sum of his/her/its odds of winning against all characters (including itself). Note that if we let X be the nx1 vector whose entries are all 1, then PX is a column vector whose i-th entry is the first approximation of how good c_i is. Let A_1 = PX.
For the second approximation, we do something similar, except that we want the match-ups against the characters that are good from the first approximation to have more weight than the match-ups against the ones that aren't. Let a_i denote the i-th entry of A_1 for each i. Now for each i, we take (a_1)(p_i,1)+(a_2)(p_i,2)+...+(a_n)(p_i,n) as the second approximation of how good c_i is. Note that the i-th entry of the vector P*A_1 is the second approximation for how good c_i is, and let A_2 = P*A_1. Note that A_2 = (P^2)X.
Iterating this procedure, we let A_m = (P^m)X for m>=3. The behavior of the sequence (A_m) varies a lot by P. What actually happens to each individual entry of A_m as m goes to infinity isn't very interesting on its own; what is interesting is what happens to the entries relative to each other. For example, in a game with 2 characters in which c_1 beats c_2 100% of the time, both entries of A_m tend to 0 as m approaches infinity, but c_2's entry approaches 0 much faster than c_1's does. Thus, instead of looking at the long term behavior of (A_m), we do the following: for each positive integer m, let s_m be the maximum entry of A_m. Let Q_m = (1/s_m)A_m. In other words, Q_m tells you how good each character is as of the m-th approximation relative to the best character(s) as of the m-th approximation. It turns out that the sequence (Q_m) does almost always converge, and the vector Q that it converges to provides a nice way of ranking the characters.
The proof that (Q_m) converges unless this one odd condition pops up is kind of ugly and tedious, so I won't go into that here; even the statement of that one condition is messy.
Anyways, in practice, it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent approximation of Q; just use Mathematica or something like that to find A_m for some decently large m and then find Q_m from there. I'd also check Q_(m+1) and maybe a few other later values to see if anything odd happens, but I think the condition for the failure of this procedure is improbable.
It's also worth mentioning that this method can lead to some results which might intuitively seem odd. For example, if you have a game with three characters and c_1 has guaranteed wins against c_2 and c_3, and c_2 has a guaranteed win against c_3, then this procedure gives c_1 the value 1 and both c_2 and c_3 get 0. This might seem strange since c_2 has strictly better match-ups than c_3, but it makes sense since c_2 is worthless in the sense that its only winning match-up is against a character that is clearly worthless.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Lol. I think you just insterted your own reason for why Samus dropped.
Beat!
Smash Master
Reading through Fly Amanitas post, I was like:
"Okay."
"Okay."
"... uhhhhhhh..."
*mouth half-open*
Really though, it sounds pretty neat.
"Okay."
"Okay."
"... uhhhhhhh..."
*mouth half-open*
Really though, it sounds pretty neat.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
For the second approximation, we do something similar, except that we want the match-ups against the characters that are good from the first approximation to have more weight than the match-ups against the ones that aren't. Let a_i denote the i-th entry of A_1 for each i. Now for each i, we take (a_1)(p_i,1)+(a_2)(p_i,2)+...+(a_n)(p_i,n) as the second approximation of how good c_i is. Note that the i-th entry of the vector P*A_1 is the second approximation for how good c_i is, and let A_2 = P*A_1. Note that A_2 = (P^2)X.
Now I understand why I lost to Fly
jesus christ
Now I understand why I lost to Fly
jesus christ
He mathed you until you lost. True story.
Rostigalen
Smash Journeyman
Mathanita da bess
Winston
Smash Master
Alright, now that I've read the post correctly this time, that's really neat. Thanks
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
because there are some really good ganon players, hes great at getting people off stage, but hes ***** when they get him off stage.
and because hangover johns can't erase history.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
Rockcrock beat Wobbles at TO6 right?
Come on Sami, I expected you to put Ganon on the top of your tier list WTF MANG
shounenkel
Smash Journeyman
Peach should be higher XD... But im likein this list guys
Stevo
Smash Champion
awesome list.
I also love how after all these years Mario is in the middle of the tier list.
I also love how after all these years Mario is in the middle of the tier list.
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
makes sense though, Hbox and mango have pretty much proven he can hold up at the highest levels of tourney play with consistent results.
I like this post because you didn't post a single approximation of what you think of the tier list.
Instead took a random shot at the people involved in making it.
Aplus trolling yo
hungrybox
Smash Legend
if its any consolation i voted her 7th
Salepate
Smash Cadet
Slhoka, you jerky jerk. You could have uploaded text version of your pdf, xls and odt sheets. =(
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
I would be complaining like a mofo if the tier list was based off character match ups and not tournament results. But for tourney results this is a good list. but I would still like to see a list based on matchups and actual character ability.
Also, I have a hard time believing DK places better than link. cause link is a much better character.
Also, I have a hard time believing DK places better than link. cause link is a much better character.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
This list is not accurate for tournament results though.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'd say switch ganon and doc but that's debatable. I like this list.
Scidadle
Smash Champion
Wtf bro pichu > kirby
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Nintendo really got the "well balanced character" aspect.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
hbox you put falcon above puff?
trollin.
trollin.
Rostigalen
Smash Journeyman
HBox is messing with ya, he put Puff at 5th though.
Check the links in OP.
Check the links in OP.
Linguini
Smash Master
Samus is a better character than ganon.
It should go:
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Samus has better high/top tier matchups than ganon. The advantages ganon has in the lower tier matchups shouldn't be weighted that heavily.
It should go:
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Samus has better high/top tier matchups than ganon. The advantages ganon has in the lower tier matchups shouldn't be weighted that heavily.
Kason Birdman
Smash Champion
ganon is pretty good.
Just because those characters are insanely bad doesn't mean we should just completely forget about them... I mean, a part of me totally understands where you're coming from.. but still.
I don't think there's any saying that characters besides the uber garb's are not playable at a competitive level.
Just because those characters are insanely bad doesn't mean we should just completely forget about them... I mean, a part of me totally understands where you're coming from.. but still.
I don't think there's any saying that characters besides the uber garb's are not playable at a competitive level.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Meh that's ok, that'll just make everyone underestimate Ganon even more lol.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
why did people like umbreon contribute to this list instead of actually good missing players like kirbykaze? i'm guessing they had the chance to contribute but they were too busy?
Slhoka
Smash Lord
All MBR were offered the choice to participate but could choose not to do it.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
*facepalm*
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
but didn't kirbykaze post his own list a while back? yet i don't see him on the list
either way this list is prrrrrty gud except the amount of tiers seems excessive like brawl's
Skyson
Smash Ace
4 pages of posts and I still can't figure out why the **** Roy's where he is. <_<
I'm diggin' the Link tier.
Sheik still in da top. B)
I'm diggin' the Link tier.
Sheik still in da top. B)
kirbykaze isnt in the mbr anymore.