Character Discussion Thread

[BluePikmin11]

I'm pretty sure we learned firmly to put in our brains not to treat anything as gospel after Gematsu. @ False Sense

 

[Deathlightning21]

Does anyone else here think we should have certain months where we discuss series for DLC when it gets going? Like say a "Month of Donkey Kong DLC" predictions?

 

[JamesDNaux]

I'm all for mandatory Rayman and Snake discussion.


There's really not much to talk about until Mewtwo shows up, or if we get any word from Sakurai before that.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

If nothing else, can we at least not take any leak as gospel?

I'm sure we CAN, but we WON'T.

Stupidity is contagious, and will continue to spread.

 

[BluePikmin11]

We could talk about Bayonetta's chances here. I already heard so many thoughts about her in the leak group already, but I'd like to hear your opinions here.

Does anyone else here think we should have certain months where we discuss series for DLC when it gets going? Like say a "Month of Donkey Kong DLC" predictions?

It's going to turn into a dead horse within the first three days.

 

[False Sense]

I'm pretty sure we learned firmly to put in our brains not to treat anything as gospel after Gematsu. @ False Sense

I'm afraid you are vastly overestimating humanity. We have a tendency to discard the past and think only of now; history will repeat itself, I'm sure.

 

[PSIBoy]

I'm afraid you are vastly overestimating humanity. We have a tendency to discard the past and think only of now; history will repeat itself, I'm sure.

Off topic, but history never repeats. There cannot be two Gematsu leaks (however you spell the first word). There cannot be two Nintendo's. There cannot be two Rome's. But there can be a very similar circumstance involved in which people who don't understand what caused the first event will not see the similar circumstance arise, which happens more than you think. It's even happening right now as we type.

 

[False Sense]

Off topic, but history never repeats. There cannot be two Gematsu leaks (however you spell the first word). There cannot be two Nintendo's. There cannot be two Rome's. But there can be a very similar circumstance involved in which people who don't understand what caused the first event will not see the similar circumstance arise, which happens more than you think. It's even happening right now as we type.

I think that goes without saying.

We don't literally mean that history will 100% repeat itself exactly as it did before; just that similar events can happen (and likely will happen) that we respond to as we did in the past.

 

[Arcanir]

Spoiler

I thought he kicked around Mother Brain and then dealt Ridley one-two shots before he got beaten himself

Spoiler

Double checked, what happens is that:
-Grey Voice attacks Mother Brain.
-Ridley storms in and really lays into Grey Voice.
-Grey Voice gets a couple hits in and calls him a beast, which Mother Brain comments on (including calling Grey Voice "a bird that can't fly").
-Ridley follows up by running him through with his tail.
-He then finishes the job once Grey Voice helps Samus one last time.

So from looking at it, Ridley was the one who was doing most of the kicking, but Grey Voice didn't go down without getting his own in.

The best you can say about Sylux is that he's slightly more likely than any other Hunter from Metroid Prime to become playable in Smash. But that's still quite a jump.

More than anything, it just sounds like desperation to add a subpar character purely for the satisfaction of having more Metroid characters. Why settle for that when there's better characters in other series in general?

I agree, I don't think Sylux is a notable character to be added into the game. He's only had a semi-major role in one game, and it's not even that notable over the other hunters that appear in that game. The cameo has also been left hanging and we don't know if his story will be developed anytime soon, so I don't think that is a good enough point for him to be added on either. So as of right now, I don't think he will be one of the choices for a Metroid character.

 

[Deathlightning21]

Why does Sakuari like to tease us so? Waiting until the dead end of spring to give us any word about the DLC? (I say the dead end of spring because thats the time around the Mewtwo code thingy)

I still hope we get a halfway mark trailer when it comes to show off Mewtwo or anything related to DLC

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

What do we have here?

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/70842153

we now have a rumor that miriam pultro is the voice for mewtwo

 

[BluePikmin11]

It says your reaction operating buddy. :S

 

[Lilfut]

Also it looks like the actual VA posted in the thread to say she wasn't doing it.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

We could talk about Bayonetta's chances here.

Why talk about chances that don't exist?

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Problem with the Metroid series is that it's really Ridley or bust. The series doesn't have any other characters noteworthy enough to be playable.

Ridley is the only Metroid character I'd welcome, anything else is reaching.

 

[Kenith]

Well, since Meta Ridley is obviously a stage boss already, can we have grey-tinted Other M Ridley as a DLC character?

 

[PSIBoy]

Why talk about chances that don't exist?

If we've learned anything from this game's speculation, it is that chances are determined by Sakurai and that it is impossible to predict him. Even so, he'd have to tone down Bayonetta more than Snake I think, making her rather unlikely. By the way, is she property of Sega?

 

[Kenith]

If we've learned anything from this game's speculation, it is that chances are determined by Sakurai and that it is impossible to predict him. Even so, he'd have to tone down Bayonetta more than Snake I think, making her rather unlikely. By the way, is she property of Sega?

Yes, she is property of Sega. Of course, she now has strong ties to Nintendo. I think that she would be a chosen as a general Platinum character, and if they are doing that, Wonder Red is not only owned by Nintendo, but also more inherently unique.

 

[Deathlightning21]

The top two Platinum characters right now our Wonder Red and Bayonetta. And seeing what Sakuarai likes in his character picks Red seems to have the upper hand when it comes to Sakurai's likes.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

If we've learned anything from this game's speculation, it is that chances are determined by Sakurai and that it is impossible to predict him. Even so, he'd have to tone down Bayonetta more than Snake I think, making her rather unlikely. By the way, is she property of Sega?

Yes, Sega owns her, that makes her a THIRD PARTY character from a company who already has representation, which is EXACTLY why she is a pipe dream.

 

[PSIBoy]

Yes, Sega owns her, that makes her a THIRD PARTY character from a company who already has representation, which is EXACTLY why she is a pipe dream.

If we've learned anything from this game's speculation, it is that chances are determined by Sakurai and that it is impossible to predict him.

Seriously, did you forsee Rosalina, Wii Fit Trainer, and Duck Hunt Dog being in the game? Even Ness in 64 was like "WTF who is this guy?!" from most of the Western fanbase. Same with Lucas likely. Saying that something is impossible is not learning from the past. She is highly unlikely, sure but not impossible.

 

[Deathlightning21]

At this point any character, from unlikely to likely, is a possible character for DLC until we know what the rules are for DLC characters from Nintendo.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Seriously, did you forsee Rosalina, Wii Fit Trainer, and Duck Hunt Dog being in the game? Even Ness in 64 was like "WTF who is this guy?!" from most of the Western fanbase. Same with Lucas likely. Saying that something is impossible is not learning from the past. She is highly unlikely, sure but not impossible.

She IS impossible. The difference between Bayonetta and those other characters is that Bayonetta is NOT owned by Nintendo.

 

[Deathlightning21]

She IS impossible. The difference between Bayonetta and those other characters is that Bayonetta is NOT owned by Nintendo.

What about all the trophies and assist trophies that aren't owned by nintendo?

 

[SmashChu]

We could talk about Bayonetta's chances here. I already heard so many thoughts about her in the leak group already, but I'd like to hear your opinions here.

I'll basically end up saying the same thing I said in the Rayman thread: the benefit of third party characters has dried up. 4 characters have been added up to this point, but there isn't any character people really want. After Snake, everyone wanted Sonic. After SOnic, everyone wanted Megaman. Pac-Man was an obvious choice for many because Namco Bandia made the game. But after Pac-Man, there wasn't any agreement on characters. And there was no one character people wanted. Bayonetta, Rayman, Simon and Bomberman have all come up and there is no consensus. If any of those were added, there would be a divide. The gimmick of third party characters is over. It's not novel anymore with three of the biggest icons in videogame history already in the game. SO adding them will no do more than adding in a Nintendo character. It would make less sense to do it for DLC. Among the Nintendo characters, there are more popular choices for new characters overall.

 

[Arcadenik]

I'll basically end up saying the same thing I said in the Rayman thread: the benefit of third party characters has dried up. 4 characters have been added up to this point, but there isn't any character people really want. After Snake, everyone wanted Sonic. After SOnic, everyone wanted Megaman. Pac-Man was an obvious choice for many because Namco Bandia made the game. But after Pac-Man, there wasn't any agreement on characters. And there was no one character people wanted. Bayonetta, Rayman, Simon and Bomberman have all come up and there is no consensus. If any of those were added, there would be a divide. The gimmick of third party characters is over. It's not novel anymore with three of the biggest icons in videogame history already in the game. SO adding them will no do more than adding in a Nintendo character. It would make less sense to do it for DLC. Among the Nintendo characters, there are more popular choices for new characters overall.

Well, to be fair... the novelty of playing as Nintendo characters in a fighting game have been worn off. That's why we keep asking for more Nintendo characters to be in the next Smash game till we eventually feel saturated. The same goes for third-party characters as well.

Also, there is almost no agreement on Nintendo characters and that's why Sakurai is tasked with making the deathly, stressful decisions.

• People couldn't agree on Fire Emblem newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Robin and Lucina are in but not Chrom, Roy, Lyn, etc.
• People couldn't agree on retro newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Little Mac and Duck Hunt Dog are in but not Takamaru, Mach Rider, Lip, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Pokemon newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Greninja is in but not Zoroark, Genesect, Deoxys, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Mario newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are in but not Toad, Paper Mario, Waluigi, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Kid Icarus newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Palutena and Dark Pit are in but not Medusa, Viridi, Hades, etc.
• People couldn't agree on which new franchises would get characters and Sakurai made the decision for them... Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, and Xenoblade Chronicles get characters but not Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, Wonderful 101, etc.
• People couldn't agree on newcomers from Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Metroid and Sakurai made the decision for them...

*Sakurai gets back on Twitter*

 

[Deathlightning21]

Well, to be fair... the novelty of playing as Nintendo characters in a fighting game have been worn off. That's why we keep asking for more Nintendo characters to be in the next Smash game till we eventually feel saturated. The same goes for third-party characters as well.

Also, there is almost no agreement on Nintendo characters and that's why Sakurai is tasked with making the deathly, stressful decisions.

• People couldn't agree on Fire Emblem newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Robin and Lucina are in but not Chrom, Roy, Lyn, etc.
• People couldn't agree on retro newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Little Mac and Duck Hunt Dog are in but not Takamaru, Mach Rider, Lip, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Pokemon newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Greninja is in but not Zoroark, Genesect, Deoxys, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Mario newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are in but not Toad, Paper Mario, Waluigi, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Kid Icarus newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Palutena and Dark Pit are in but not Medusa, Viridi, Hades, etc.
• People couldn't agree on which new franchises would get characters and Sakurai made the decision for them... Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, and Xenoblade Chronicles get characters but not Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, Wonderful 101, etc.
• People couldn't agree on newcomers from Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Metroid and Sakurai made the decision for them...

*Sakurai gets back on Twitter*

This kinda sad in a way, we all want our dreams to come true then Sakurai is like "No Children, let daddy decide for you."

Maybe he'll think of all of us when deciding DLC characters.

 

[Arcadenik]

This kinda sad in a way, we all want our dreams to come true then Sakurai is like "No Children, let daddy decide for you."

Maybe he'll think of all of us when deciding DLC characters.

No... there are no "maybes" even with DLC... Sakurai likely already knows that it is impossible to please everyone.

 

[Deathlightning21]

No... there are no "maybes" even with DLC... Sakurai likely already knows that it is impossible to please everyone.

I CAN DREAM HERALD!

 

[SmashChu]

Well, to be fair... the novelty of playing as Nintendo characters in a fighting game have been worn off. That's why we keep asking for more Nintendo characters to be in the next Smash game till we eventually feel saturated. The same goes for third-party characters as well.

Also, there is almost no agreement on Nintendo characters and that's why Sakurai is tasked with making the deathly, stressful decisions.

• People couldn't agree on Fire Emblem newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Robin and Lucina are in but not Chrom, Roy, Lyn, etc. It's not that people disagreed. Most everyone thought it was going to be Chrom. It's just that Chrom is boring, which is why we got Robin.
• People couldn't agree on retro newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Little Mac and Duck Hunt Dog are in but not Takamaru, Mach Rider, Lip, etc. There was no disagreement. Everyone wanted Little Mac. Duck Hunt is like ROB and MR. Game and Watch in the sense it's a Retro character added in. You can do this with Nintendo characters but not third party.
• People couldn't agree on Pokemon newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Greninja is in but not Zoroark, Genesect, Deoxys, etc.
• People couldn't agree on Mario newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are in but not Toad, Paper Mario, Waluigi, etc. This is more because Mario has so many ****ing characters. Also why they added two new ones.
• People couldn't agree on Kid Icarus newcomers and Sakurai made the decision for them... Palutena and Dark Pit are in but not Medusa, Viridi, Hades, etc. Not really true as Palutena was still the most popular.
• People couldn't agree on which new franchises would get characters and Sakurai made the decision for them... Animal Crossing, Wii Fit, and Xenoblade Chronicles get characters but not Golden Sun, Sin & Punishment, Wonderful 101, etc. Most of these aren't even related.
• People couldn't agree on newcomers from Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Metroid and Sakurai made the decision for them.. Same as above. People wanted Ridley. A lot of people wanted a DK newcomer. There was no disagreement between these.

That's a fair point, but I think third party characters will get old faster (and they have), as this is a Nintendo fighting game. It's clear and understood that the premise of the game is Nintendo history. A big reason Sonic and Megaman were more popular than other characters was because they related to Nintendo. The reason some of the other characters aren't as popular (i.e. Bayonetta and Rayman), is because their relationship to Nintendo is very weak. Adding Nintendo characters is normal for the series. Yes, there is less benefit for each additional Nintendo character; however, that is more of a function of a large roster that as the roster gets bigger, then benefit of having more characters is less and less. Adding third party characters isn't normal for the series, and the criteria for them is higher. We're at the point where the benefit of third party characters outweights the cost. Beyond licensing cost and "more cooks in the kitchen," there is also the "do they fit in," or "are they worth it." People aren't going to worry as much about Robin or Rosalina because they are Nintendo characters in a Nintendo fighting game. Characters like the ones I mentioned are not. Too many third party characters makes the game feel like MUGAN, which isn't a good thing. The roster works better with focus and it will make development easier. Having to deal with 4 other companies for 4 charactersis not very efficient.A real example of this is Soul Caliber. At first, characters like Link were very cool. Now, no one cares who the new guest is. It's not special anymore.

To your points, I put some specific responses in red where I felt they were warranted. Looking at it, "agreed" may have been the wrong word chose. Right now, there is no one popular third party character. There are a lot of popular Nintendo characters: Inklings, Ridley, a DK character, Impa, Captain Toad, and so on. This number will increase as new characters are introduced (I expect some people will ask for Henry Fleming when Codename STEAM is released). Many of the characters I listed are more popular than the third party choices floating around. After Brawl, Megaman was the character everyone wanted. This game, however, there isn't one third party character people want. And that is the big difference. I think that unless there is a third party game on a Nintendo system that blows up like Minecraft, that the allure of third party characters is done.

 

[Kalimdori]

I'll basically end up saying the same thing I said in the Rayman thread: the benefit of third party characters has dried up. 4 characters have been added up to this point, but there isn't any character people really want. After Snake, everyone wanted Sonic. After SOnic, everyone wanted Megaman. Pac-Man was an obvious choice for many because Namco Bandia made the game. But after Pac-Man, there wasn't any agreement on characters. And there was no one character people wanted. Bayonetta, Rayman, Simon and Bomberman have all come up and there is no consensus. If any of those were added, there would be a divide. The gimmick of third party characters is over. It's not novel anymore with three of the biggest icons in videogame history already in the game. SO adding them will no do more than adding in a Nintendo character. It would make less sense to do it for DLC. Among the Nintendo characters, there are more popular choices for new characters overall.

And like in the Rayman forum, this argument still doesn't make any sense and you'll still probably ignore most counterarguments. Either you've got a Nintendo "purists" view of Smash Bros that's ignoring basic logic, or you've got tunnel vision of the Smash fanbase that only extends to the people on speculation forums.

Third party characters are a major selling point of the Smash games they've appeared in, they're inclusion has been majorly well received, they're heavily advertised, and they're among the most recognized faces in the game. You honestly believe that a secondary/tertiary Nintendo character would be more popular then Rayman or Simon, main characters of major video game franchises that would advertise to an even bigger audience? Raymans been around for nearly 20 years, Simons been around for nearly 30, there are only a handful of Nintendo series more popular then the Castlevania and Rayman series, and those series already have most of their major characters playable in the game. Who are they going to add that would be more popular then the aforementioned third party characters? Inklings? Ridley? Impa?

These names are only big on internet forums, to the general populace third party characters are much better known. Not only that but they represent the companies that they are from, appealing to an even bigger fanbase. If Ubisoft got behind getting Rayman into Smash Bros they'd be advertising to an audience Nintendo probably wouldn't reach otherwise. Same with Konami and Simon/Snake. Or, by some miracle, Square Enix and one of their characters.

The only Nintendo characters I could see being more popular to the ENTIRE Smash fanbase then Rayman or Simon are Captain Toad (Simply because he's a Toad), a new Pokemon, Ganon, and MAYBE a DK character.

I am dying to hear your logic as to how you could possibly think an Inkling, Impa, or Ridley would be better received/are more popular then possible third party characters. Particularly the Inkling.

 

[SmashChu]

And like in the Rayman forum, this argument still doesn't make any sense and you'll still probably ignore most counterarguments. Either you've got a Nintendo "purists" view of Smash Bros that's ignoring basic logic, or you've got tunnel vision of the Smash fanbase that only extends to the people on speculation forums.

Third party characters are a major selling point of the Smash games they've appeared in, they're inclusion has been majorly well received, they're heavily advertised, and they're among the most recognized faces in the game. You honestly believe that a secondary/tertiary Nintendo character would be more popular then Rayman or Simon, main characters of major video game franchises that would advertise to an even bigger audience? Raymans been around for nearly 20 years, Simons been around for nearly 30, there are only a handful of Nintendo series more popular then the Castlevania and Rayman series, and those series already have most of their major characters playable in the game. Who are they going to add that would be more popular then the aforementioned third party characters? Inklings? Ridley? Impa?

These names are only big on internet forums, to the general populace third party characters are much better known. Not only that but they represent the companies that they are from, appealing to an even bigger fanbase. If Ubisoft got behind getting Rayman into Smash Bros they'd be advertising to an audience Nintendo probably wouldn't reach otherwise. Same with Konami and Simon/Snake. Or, by some miracle, Square Enix and one of their characters.

The only Nintendo characters I could see being more popular to the ENTIRE Smash fanbase then Rayman or Simon are Captain Toad (Simply because he's a Toad), a new Pokemon, Ganon, and MAYBE a DK character.

I am dying to hear your logic as to how you could possibly think an Inkling, Impa, or Ridley would be better received/are more popular then possible third party characters. Particularly the Inkling.

I ignored most of them because of time. Most of the arguments were pretty poor and not well thought out. The only argument I wanted to get back to was the one guy who actually replied and tried to use Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility, albeit he didn't understand much outside of an investopedia definition. It was so bad that one guy thought I was talking about Ice cream. This should tell you something about the quality of the debate.

You mention that "these names are only big on internet forums." I'll direct you to this video where about half of the participants did not know who Megaman was. Megaman has been around much longer than most characters and was big during the golden age of Nintendo. Do you think these people will know Rayman and Simon? Probably not.

The point is this: the appeal of third party characters is declining among the general fanbase. You mentioned Rayman a lot in your paragraph and it was defiantly a focal point of your argument. So this tells me you are one of the people who wants third parties for third party character's sake. People wanted very specific characters: Sonic and Megaman in particular. Megaman was very much talked about after Brawl. The same can not be said about Rayman and Simon who are no more popular than any other character. The interest is dying because there is no particular character people are interested in. As such, there isn't much need to deal with the legal and royalties associated with third party characters if no one really wants one. It's much easier to add characters made internally than externally and it keeps the focus on celebrating Nintendo's history. You mentioned it is a selling point, but 64 and Melee sold just fine without third party characters.

EDIT: BTW, Rayman is not 20 years old. The first game was released in the 3rd quarter of 1995.

 

[Substitution]

You know, I've always liked the idea of Goemon being DLC. I mean, who wouldn't want to fight Bowser using a giant mech?

 

[Sabrewulf238]

You mention that "these names are only big on internet forums." I'll direct you to this video where about half of the participants did not know who Megaman was.

Gee that was kinda scary. If Sakurai was creating the roster based on these people a lot of iconic and important Nintendo characters would be cut. We probably wouldn't have Metroid representation at all. Fire Emblem would be completely out the window too.

I don't think the masses really care about who gets added now. As long as they have Mario, Pikachu, Sonic etc they'll be more or less happy. There's a big song and dance made about the silent majority, but I think the silent majority is largely satisfied at this point.

 

[Kalimdori]

I ignored most of them because of time. Most of the arguments were pretty poor and not well thought out. The only argument I wanted to get back to was the one guy who actually replied and tried to use Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility, albeit he didn't understand much outside of an investopedia definition. It was so bad that one guy thought I was talking about Ice cream. This should tell you something about the quality of the debate.

Oh, their arguments were pretty poor and not well thought out? You were trying to tie in a law that was outright backwards in regards to the argument, it only even remotely applied because you don't seem to be able to extend your vision of the Smash fanbase outside of speculation forums! One guy thought you were talking about Ice Cream because you did try to reference Ice Cream to support your arguments, and it was utterly nonsensical, to the point that even you seem to not be able to remember it.

You mention that "these names are only big on internet forums." I'll direct you to this video where about half of the participants did not know who Megaman was. Megaman has been around much longer than most characters and was big during the golden age of Nintendo. Do you think these people will know Rayman and Simon? Probably not.

I actually considered referencing that video in my first post, because that only further proves my point. Of those people, yes, about half of them didn't know who Megaman was. Considering Rayman is still around today, and his games have sold about as well as the Megaman games, I'd say the amount that would recognize him would be a bit smaller, maybe down to a third of the people. That's still more recognized then over half of the current Nintendo cast. How many people recognized Rosalina, or called her Elsa? How many knew Shulk? Any of the Fire Emblem cast? How many people thought Link was named Zelda? If you showed these people a picture of Ridley, Impa, Inklings, etc. there is no way they'd be able to tell who they were.

The point is this: the appeal of third party characters is declining among the general fanbase.

I could say that about just about any possible character, third party or no. The point being of the possible characters, the possible third parties appeal is greater then that of the possible first parties, you still have yet to even remotely address that.

You mentioned Rayman a lot in your paragraph and it was defiantly a focal point of your argument. So this tells me you are one of the people who wants third parties for third party character's sake.

Obviously, and I'm not the only one. Rayman's a popular character that comes from a company that dwarfs the other repped third parties.

People wanted very specific characters: Sonic and Megaman in particular. Megaman was very much talked about after Brawl. The same can not be said about Rayman and Simon who are no more popular than any other character.

No more popular than any other character?! Where on earth are you getting this information? Those are the main characters of beloved series that have sold millions of copies, more than the majority of Nintendo franchises. Again, the main characters, the most recognizable character from those games.

The interest is dying because there is no particular character people are interested in. As such, there isn't much need to deal with the legal and royalties associated with third party characters if no one really wants one.

See above

It's much easier to add characters made internally than externally

True

and it keeps the focus on celebrating Nintendo's history.

And this matters? In previous games, yes, but in this iteration the focus is shifting to celebrating Nintendo's here and now. Of the classic "Nintendo history", the two third party characters represent that much better then the majority of the newcomer cast, and the possible third party characters for DLC would also represent it better then the majority of the newcomer cast.

You mentioned it is a selling point, but 64 and Melee sold just fine without third party characters.

Are you trying to infer that I was claiming it was the singular selling point? Because I wasn't, quit trying to twist my words into something they're not. It was one of the selling points of both Brawl and 3DS/Wii U, that is blindingly obvious, it's something that has been repeatedly lauded by critics, Iwata, Sakurai, and fans alike.

EDIT: BTW, Rayman is not 20 years old. The first game was released in the 3rd quarter of 1995.

Might help if you actually read what people say, I said nearly 20 years.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

No... there are no "maybes" even with DLC... Sakurai likely already knows that it is impossible to please everyone.

Well who do you think he picked, personally I think Wolf is going to be DLC, for Star Fox U and apparently the Namco dev team and Sakurai really like Wolf, and apparently Sakurai said Wolf was his favorite Star Fox character (won't believe that though until Wolf's playable), but Sakurai would probably add Wolf in due to his personal bias for him and the fan demand that just came up for him. Lucas is probably another lock. Ice Climbers, only if they can fix the problems. He may not be able to please everyone,but he can please ALOT of people by doing(and if 3DS issues are fixed) as DLC.

 

[JamesDNaux]

The point is this: the appeal of third party characters is declining among the general fanbase. You mentioned Rayman a lot in your paragraph and it was defiantly a focal point of your argument. .

I could say that about just about any possible character, third party or no. The point being of the possible characters, the possible third parties appeal is greater then that of the possible first parties, you still have yet to even remotely address that.

To add onto this, as Kalimdori said, the fanbase is far more than SmashBoards. This is some serious tunnel vision that a lot of people here need to get out of. So interest in third party characters is decreasing here (which isn't as true as SmashChu likes to say at every turn, if there were not interest for third party characters, then there would be no threads here in support of them)? That means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even if you want to say that interest in third parties is decreasing across the entire Smash fanbase as a whole (which is abhorrently untrue), this neglects to include said character's own fanbase. Logically speaking, and even with evidence to back it up, as we have seen previously with Snake (and Pac-Man to an extent), if even a large portion of the Smash fanbase no longer cares for third party characters, should a character (such as Rayman) become playable, a large portion of their fanbase would then join into the Smash fanbase. By the basic fundamentals of this, the portion of the Smash fanbase that is no longer interested in third parties would be mostly equalized by the new people melding in.

Tl;dr, It means jack **** if people from the Smash fanbase don't want third party characters, because people from outside of the community would join if their own favorite character showed up. Thus the fanbase in question has renewed interest.

Visual representation:

 

[BKupa666]

This is something I thought about regarding third parties as well. . .Sonic and Mega Man were far and away the biggest requests for Brawl and SSB4, respectively. Snake got in because it pays to be friends with Sakurai, and Pac-Man, while his fanbase grew in the wake of Namco being announced as SSB4's developer, wouldn't have really been a contender otherwise. Other third party characters have pockets of fans here or there, but until a clear frontrunner emerges (or a new developing company gets announced and everyone rallies around their mascot), none stands out as a better choice than any other for next game.

Granted, the people arguing that third parties are dead as a concept are the same ones who argued that third parties weren't happening in SSB4 because "this is a Nintendo game" or whatever, not to mention Pac-Man having no chance because reasons, so this could be a case of them being right for the wrong reasons. If anything, because of the gridlock between candidates, I can easily see people just supporting Snake's return for SSB5 and calling it a day.

Either that, or "New Third Party Rep" it is.

 

[Staarih]

I don't mind 3rd parties, being the casual gamer that I am, but of course I don't want them to overtake the Nintendo ones (which, granted, isn't going to happen haha). The likes of Mega Man, Sonic and Pac-Man fit very well with the Nintendo characters, and some unknowing people might even take them as such. I think Ray-Man and Bomberman, for instance, would also fit just fine (and I'd be up for more "men" haha!), and of course I'd like to see Snake return as well. I don't see DLC happening for 3rd parties so I guess it's SSB5 where we'll see what 3rd parties (if any) are added to sell the game at that time.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I don't really see the third-party line-up changing in the next game. It's probably going to be the 3 iconic characters again.
If anything, you might as well add as many third-party DLC as possible to keep the hype train going.