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New tech - Platform Warp

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
This is an explanation for docs but it's the same concept for everyone, most characters just need the hitlag because they move to fast.

WTF is going on?

On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar

Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster

When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.


[collapse=Fox]
Fox

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/NeighboringDefiniteCockerspaniel

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - nair on 3 (gif)
15 - nair on 4, fair on 2
16 - nair on 5, fair on 3, dair on 4
17 - nair on 6, fair on 4, dair on 5, bair on 6, upair on 2

[/collapse]

[collapse=Falco]
Falco

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/AcademicTepidJunco

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
17 - nair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Sheik]
Sheik

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/TinyConventionalAnnelid

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - fair on 2 (gif), bair on 3, upair on 2 (gif)
16 - fair on 3, upair on 3
17 - nair on 5, fair on 3 and 4, upair on 3, bair on 4
18 - nair on 6, fair on 4 and 5, upair on 4 and 5, bair on 5 and 6
19 - nair on 7, fair on 5, upair on 5, bair on 6
[/collapse]

[collapse=Marth]
Marth

NIL

http://gfycat.com/LawfulSardonicChrysomelid

Fastest
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
5 - Fastfall
12 - DoubleJump
21 - Land
22 - can move/attack

Aerials

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
14 - fair on 2.00 (gif)
15 - nair on 2.00 (gif)

http://gfycat.com/TidySophisticatedBetafish

Fair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
14 - DoubleJump
15 - Fair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
18 - Hit (hitlag starts)
23 - ECB update - Land
30 - can move/attack

Nair
0 - Platform drop method
1 - Pass (first frame airbourne under platform)
15 - DoubleJump
16 - Nair - need to l-cancel before frame 24
21 - Hit (hitlag starts)
24 - ECB update - Land
31 - can move/attack

[/collapse]

[collapse=Doc]
Platform Warp #4

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/TerribleElegantGartersnake

When dropping from a platform, you can get a very quick No Impact Land if you double jump on a specific frame. Once landed, you have only 1 frame of landing lag..

Here is what the frame looks like:

This is the 17th frame of FALL after dropping from a platform without fastfall.

Easy Perfect Waveland

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LonelyCreepyHorse

Just airdodge left/right the frame you would normally land.

Shielddrop - repeated first frame possible

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LankyOrganicCanadagoose

Shielddrop > Glide > Dsmash

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/WeeklyDizzyAnteater

Platform Warp Aerial

Upair

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BronzeDangerousAntipodesgreenparakeet

Nair

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/MasculineThickBrocketdeer

If you use an aerial as you double jump you can "warp" to the platform just as fast, but of course suffer aerial landing lag (can l-cancel). Only Upair and Nair are useful as they grant hitboxes. Due to the nature of the tech, aerials require specific setups to work when hitting an opponent (explained below in WTF section).

Below is a table for both Upair and Nair determining which frame setups will cancel on the platform when there is an opponent to hit. I have added AI setups as they are very similar and occur at similar frames. Hitbox AIs (AIA) require different L-cancel timing though, please read the key below the tables.

|UP-AIR with Hitlag______________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________UPAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME___________________
|__________________|____HITBOX /X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL /X__________
|....... 16 .......|........................ 6
AI X ..........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 17 .......|................... 6 PW X | 7 X AI X ....................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|... 6 PW X (gif above) | 7 X AI X | 8 X AI X | 9 AI X ..
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 19 .......|............. 9 X AI X | 10 X AI X | 11 AI X ..............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 20 .......|............. 11 X AI X | 12 X AI X | 13 AI X .............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 21 .......|....... 12 X AI X | 13 X AI X | 14 X AI X | 15 AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 22 .......|. 14 X AI X | 15 X AI X | 16 X AI X | 17 X AI | 18 X AI X |..................|...... 19 AI X | 20 AI X | 21 AI X | 22 AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 23 .......|. 16 X AI X | 17 X AI X | 18 X AI X | 19 X AI X | 20 X AI .
|..................|......................... 21 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 24 .......|. 20 X AI X | 21 X AI X | 22 X AI X | 23 X AI X | 24 X AI X .
|..................|......................... 25 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________



|NAIR with Hitlag________________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________NAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME____________________
|__________________|____HITBOX /X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL /X__________
|....... 17 .......|....................... 7
PW X ...........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|............ 7 PW X (gif above) | 8 X PW X ................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________


Hitbox - Is there an active hitbox before the move cancels

PW - Platform Warp (1 frame less landing lag) (must L-cancel on hitbox frame or before)
AI - Aerial Interrupt (can L-cancel during hitlag)

Autocancel - Aerial immediately cancels and you suffer only standard landing lag, 4 frames,

WTF is going on?

On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar

Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster

When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.

:mariomelee: - COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
:luigimelee:
- COMPATIBLE: Much easier. go here for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech.308463/
[/collapse]

[collapse=Pikachu]
Pikachu

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/SlightThornyGalago

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
11 - nair on 2
15 - upair on 6 (gif)
[/collapse]

[collapse=Ganon]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/DistinctHandyCuttlefish

fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
3 | 11
[/collapse]

[collapse=Luigi]
Luigi
NIL - Land on DJ frame 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t94_pKNm4k

Fastfall on airbourne frame - DJ on airbourne frame
No FastFall - 20 21 22
12 - 18
13 - 19
14 - 19 20
15 - 19 20
16 - 19 20
Later is pointless

Aerials

http://gfycat.com/HugeColorfulAyeaye

DJ on airbourne frame - Aerial on DJ frame
15 - upair on 2 (gif)
16 - nair on 4, upair on 2 and 3
17 - nair on 5 upair on 3 and 4
18 - nair on 5, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
19 - nair on 5 and 6 and 7, upair on 3 and 4 and 5
20 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
21 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 4 and 5
22 - nair on 6 and 7, upair on 5

[/collapse]

[collapse=Zelda]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/PerfumedGrippingHusky

fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
no fastfall | 16
2 | 11
3 | 11 - gfycat (because you can't ff on the 2nd airborne frame if you shielddrop)
4 | 12
5 | 12
5 | 13
6 | 13
7 | 13
7 | 14
8 | 14
more, follows an obvious pattern
[/collapse]

[collapse=Roy]
NIL
http://gfycat.com/DismalGrimCock

fastfall on airborne frame | dj on airborne frame
7 | 12 - gfycat
8 | 13
11 | 14
[/collapse]

[collapse=Ness]
Platform drop from top plat
http://gfycat.com/GraciousFarawayAnnelida

On the ledge
http://gfycat.com/HardtofindMadFluke

There are two main setups for this. Fullhop+fast fall and a platform drop. You essentially need to be falling for a certain amount of time before you doublejump. And you doublejump under , but not far under, a platform.

So lets say you are on a platform
1 - Jump
Hold
4 - Jump
31 - can hold down to buffer fastfall
34 - fastfall
53 - doublejump
62 - ecb update, no impact land on platform
63 - can move/attack

This is the setup for a perfect fastfall and thus is the fastest, but you do not need to fastfall perfectly for it to work. You just need to doublejump about when the platform cuts through your neck.

Now let's say your on the top battlefield platform.
0 - Platform drop method
1 - first frame airborne - drift towards lower platform
24 - Doublejump
33 - NIL
34 - can move/attack

You can also dj on 25 instead, thus there is a 2 frame window. You could fastfall to make it quicker too.

I still can't find any setup from the ledge, frame 10 is too early. I even tried abusing manipulation with his up-b. But no dice.

Have to say this is a pretty goofy nil, as ness is literally upside down when he lands.

Did some testing for the top to lower plat NIL on different stages

Battlefield - 2 frame window

Dreamland - 2 frame window
A little difficult to drift far enough.

Yoshis - 1 frame window

FoD
starting positions (low) - 1 frame window
Mid height - 1 frame window
High - 1 frame window
Super low - 2 frame window

PStadium
Forest Transformation top wood plat to lower wood plat - 1 frame window

Rock topleft to bottom left metal sheets - 1 frame window
Rock topleft to middle left metal sheets - 1 frame window
(too many angles to test but most setups will have at least 1 frame window)

Water plats on the right - 1 frame window

You can fastfall them to make them faster, but it changes the size of the window depending on when you fastfall.
[/collapse]

More characters can definitely do this, but I couldn't be bothered to do the whole cast as I wasn't sure how viable this is. Falcon, Peach and Jiggs can't do this, I'll test others by request.
 
Last edited:

GspotMicrostock

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 19, 2015
Messages
20
This is amazing I want to learn how to do it with doc just don't understand exactly what to do at this point. I remember reading all your posts in the thread about Samus's AI at ledge and not understanding jack **** and then later coming back and totally understanding more than before. So if discussion gets provoked about this I think I can definitely process it over time just to learn something cool
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
Falcon might not be able to do it with a simple drop through DJ, but I found this (walljump, DJ, bair):
Cool find, unfortunately Falcon will never get a hitbox from a bair platform warp as it comes out too slow. He can use nair instead though, but he cant get a hitbox out from the walljump method unfortunately (unless he waits still frame 29 before doublejumping).

I never thought of using walljump before, rhere are likely some setups with other characters that are better than falcons, ill have a lab session tomorrow.

Btw I know you love your falco tech, just incase you havent seen it, I found a cool reliable setup for platform warp aerials http://gfycat.com/WarlikeFatDinosaur. Heres the thread for details http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/37prsy/falco_backwards_shorthop_platform_warp_nair_bair/ easily the most viable platform warp to date.
 

TheCandyman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 15, 2014
Messages
140
3DS FC
3866-8591-8094
In simpler terms: is this like a way to cancel your double jump with an aerial and land on the platform with less lag? Or a version of drop cancelling? If not what is the layman's terms of it
 
Last edited:

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
In simpler terms: is this like a way to cancel your double jump with an aerial and land on the platform with less lag? Or a version of drop cancelling? If not what is the layman's terms of it
Yeah I guess the layman is it cancels your doublejump and makes you land on a platform when you are rising above it.

I'm not sure what you mean by less lag, but you will land quicker than if you waited for you to fall back on the platform. But you still have the same amount of landing lag with the aerials, you just land way faster.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
19,346
I bet this explains the weird stuff that I have seen with Sheik/Roy I think on yoshi's or I think with Roy/Doc on stadium platforms. With Roy I can regularly Uthrow these two (I think it was these two) and they pretty much instantly pop up on the platforms in a knock down state without first going through the platform and falling back down onto it.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Cool find, unfortunately Falcon will never get a hitbox from a bair platform warp as it comes out too slow. He can use nair instead though, but he cant get a hitbox out from the walljump method unfortunately (unless he waits still frame 29 before doublejumping).

I never thought of using walljump before, rhere are likely some setups with other characters that are better than falcons, ill have a lab session tomorrow.

Btw I know you love your falco tech, just incase you havent seen it, I found a cool reliable setup for platform warp aerials http://gfycat.com/WarlikeFatDinosaur. Heres the thread for details http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/37prsy/falco_backwards_shorthop_platform_warp_nair_bair/ easily the most viable platform warp to date.
Thanks, I'll have to try it out. Seems like they have more than enough leniency. You can do these on shield, right? I'd imagine all you need it hitlag.

Do you know if shield dropping makes it easier to PW than simply dropping through? I know it's faster, so I figured saving a few frames would allow you more frames before the ECB changes, but idk the details about how it works. I was able to do no-hitlag PWs by shield dropping through the top plat of BF and DJing back up with an aerial (similar to this: http://gfycat.com/FeminineGregariousHypsilophodon).
 
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Comet7

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
1,027
Location
Somewhere over the rainbow
NNID
Comet7
Does Pichu also have this type of aerial interrupt with his nair and up air?

For the description you gave, I would have to be airborne for the number of frames to the left, then double jump on the last of those frames (frame 11 for Pika's up air), and then do the aerial for the amount of frames after I double jump (frame 6 for Pika's up air)? I've been trying to do this in debug mode, yet I can't actually do it, so I think my interpretation of this is off.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Does Pichu also have this type of aerial interrupt with his nair and up air?

For the description you gave, I would have to be airborne for the number of frames to the left, then double jump on the last of those frames (frame 11 for Pika's up air), and then do the aerial for the amount of frames after I double jump (frame 6 for Pika's up air)? I've been trying to do this in debug mode, yet I can't actually do it, so I think my interpretation of this is off.
 

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
Thanks, I'll have to try it out. Seems like they have more than enough leniency. You can do these on shield, right? I'd imagine all you need it hitlag.

Do you know if shield dropping makes it easier to PW than simply dropping through? I know it's faster, so I figured saving a few frames would allow you more frames before the ECB changes, but idk the details about how it works. I was able to do no-hitlag PWs by shield dropping through the top plat of BF and DJing back up with an aerial (similar to this: http://gfycat.com/FeminineGregariousHypsilophodon).
Shield dropping makes no difference to Pass' ECB pattern. I can't seem to find the setup you are talking about, it's not possible without fastfalling and I tested a few fastfall setups. Falco's ECB in Pass doesn't go high enough to create a downward extension great enough to overcome his vertical velocity.

Check out this totally intentional platform warp. :troll:
:/ Hate to burst your bubble but this isn't a platform warp. It's a regular NIL caused by falco's doublejump ECB pattern. It's impossible for Falco to platform warp NIL. The highest possible ECB he can use is 8.22, and his doublejump pattern on frame 10 is 6.48 (or 6.97 on a backwards DJ). That's a downward extension of 1.74, but his upward velocity on dj frame 10 is 2.15, so the ECB will always be higher up on the update frame.

Also remember that you need to doublejump on the 11th airborne or later, or the ECB will be locked to the base position during the doublejump too.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Shield dropping makes no difference to Pass' ECB pattern. I can't seem to find the setup you are talking about, it's not possible without fastfalling and I tested a few fastfall setups. Falco's ECB in Pass doesn't go high enough to create a downward extension great enough to overcome his vertical velocity.



:/ Hate to burst your bubble but this isn't a platform warp. It's a regular NIL caused by falco's doublejump ECB pattern. It's impossible for Falco to platform warp NIL. The highest possible ECB he can use is 8.22, and his doublejump pattern on frame 10 is 6.48 (or 6.97 on a backwards DJ). That's a downward extension of 1.74, but his upward velocity on dj frame 10 is 2.15, so the ECB will always be higher up on the update frame.

Also remember that you need to doublejump on the 11th airborne or later, or the ECB will be locked to the base position during the doublejump too.
I thought the pass animation was a few frames faster with shield dropping? Oh well, I'll try and replicate it and get some precise numbers. Maybe I was just doing a NIL like how you described above. lol And thanks for correcting me. That makes way more sense since I was wondering how I ftilted, but it must have been my bair input.
 
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