New! Sonic Gameplay Footage, Buffs/Nerfs, Etc.

[WedginatorX]

Attended the Best Buy Smash 4 Demo today with some of the other Jersey smashers. I got some time to lab it up with sonic and find some new techniques as well as finding what's removed. Below are the three videos I was able to record. The first two are mostly me messing around with Sonic's specials and trying to see what ATs sonic retains from brawl and what new techniques he has gained. The third video is another sonic player demonstrating sonic's throws, tilts, smashes, and other moves I didn't get a chance to test myself due to the two-minute match time limit.

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Now, as far as I can tell, Sonic has received a very significant list of buffs and nerfs. Overall, I believe Sonic has been buffed as a character and that he's much stronger than his Brawl counterpart. Here's a general list of some of the info I've discovered:

Buffs:

• Side B spindash animation changed and is now faster. If you want to vsdj, you can either double jump out of it and attack, or let it hit the ground. If it hits the ground, vsdj resumes the regular side-B animation and goes into the spindash hop from side B. So the charge of the side b is even able to be vsdj'd now, and after that you can immediately VSDJ again. Also, alternatively you can cancel the first VSDJ into a shield, what I'm referring to as VSDJSC, because of the fact that when you do the first VSDJ, sonic is still charging side B and can thus cancel the VSDJ into shield.
• Down B spindash charge is significantly faster, both on the ground and in the air. This makes sonic's spindash pressure a lot more powerful, and the hitstun is also increased while decreasing spindash's knockback, allowing for legitimate spindash > aerial move combos. Spindash bair can now combo.
• Fair startup is faster. So yeah, our 13-frame-startup aerial is now even more ridiculously fast. I was able to use it to momentum cancel full-on hits from donkey kong at 120 and live. Fair also autocancels right as you hit the ground so you can act as soon as the fair is over with no delay. This allows you to cancel fair into utilt, ftilt, dtilt, jab pressure, or a throw very easily now, and perhaps even rack up some damage with fair combos at low %.
• Sonic's tilts are all much faster and have greater range to them.
• Bair hitstun and knockback increased. This is now undeniably his best kill move.
• Uair horizontal range increased, even large than brawl's. Uair can now kill at lower %s. Has more knockback and hitstun so makes uair combos more deadly. Uthrow uair to another uair or spring uair is now possibly legit.
• Up throw puts the opponent higher in the air, at perfect range for uair to connect in its sweet spot.
• All other throws seem to just be even better versions of his previous throws. Didn't get to test whether dthrow is techable.
• *New* down smash - basically goes into a split like Falco in brawl. Seems to be useful and fast for quick punishes like airdodges/spotdodges. I believe this is a buff, requires further testing.
• Dair spikes when sweetspotted.
• *New* Sonic's homing attack has waaay faster startup.

Nerfs:

• *nvm apparently i was wrong spinshot is still in using c-stick, credit to espy*
• NO ASCSC! ASC is no longer shield cancellable. This is probably the trade for a faster and more aggressive spindash.
• Recovery on sonic's aerials have all increased from brawl. *Note* all of the characters have increased recovery time from aerials, so this isn't just specific to sonic.
• Spring no longer bounces sonic as high. That, or sonic is heavier and therefore does not float as much afterward.
• Recovery on dair hitting the ground is much greater and you must dair from a much higher height in order to get the animation to cancel correctly so you can act when you hit the ground. Seems like a fast double jump to spring usually does the trick to get the proper height.
• Bair hitbox possibly decreased? Seems like it might be but not super significantly. Still able to be used for all previous uses, just need to be slightly adjusting your spacing.
• Fsmash is now slightly slower startup, seems to hit maybe slightly less hard but not significantly, but has significantly more recovery. Probably the price for making bair and uair so much better for killing. Fsmash can definitely still be a strong punish and kill move, just a bit riskier to use now but still a good move.

Feel free to ask any specific questions, not sure if I remembered everything. Watch the videos, see if you can pick up on anything I did that I forgot about. Enjoy!

 

[infomon]

Whoa, Wedge you are amazing!!! analyzing my way through this now...

 

[Blank Mauser]

I was able to spinshot with Down-B using the C-stick on pro controller. It works as Brawl.

Dash attack is nice now. Also everyone can pivot into ftilt/fsmash backwards, so Sonic has a new tool in that regard.

 

[Camalange]

Good **** Wedge! I love the videos to accompany everything you're talking about. Can't wait to dissect this more and try it out for myself when I get my hands on the demo.

According to Espy's twitter, spinshot is still in. Maybe your timing was off?

There are some seemingly odd things involving landing lag and dashing with Sm4sh in general... Peculiar. I hope it doesn't slow down the game as a whole. Hard to fully grasp it without trying it myself.

 

[WedginatorX]

Spinshot is probably still in, just is whack because of the awkward placement of the C-stick on the pro controller. Casualfags wouldn't leave me alone long enough so that I could try to test spinshot, i had to keep on running. It'll be much easier with gamecube controller probably.

 

[Trent]

Spinshot is for sure still in, tested it myself. Also, his side taunt is stupid now.

 

[Espy Rose]

I spin shot on the 3DS version using B and A, which is how I SideB spinshot in Brawl. I didn't even try the cstick because for some reason, my C Stick was B Stick. It was doing specials instead of smashes.

What is it Trent? I didn't even bother checking out taunts.

 

[Espy Rose]

Imma post this there just to remind myself for Saturday:

We need to check out whether or not Sonic can still move while charging downB while airborne, and whether or not holding forward or back during an ASC allows him to slow down (and move back) or speed up.

If anyone else wants to chime in on things to check, lemme know. I'm going back on Saturday.

 

[WedginatorX]

Ahh I forgot about using B slide to A for spinshot. I actually think my cstick was also bstick now that i think of it bc i got some pretty weird stuff. My bad for not playing the game in over a year, i forgot all the shortcuts lol.

I'm gonna be going back on saturday too and I'll have somebody record me on my phone again, so lemme know if you guys wanna see anything.

Did you try any ASC combos Espy? I didn't really get a chance to land an ASC on anyone, and when i did it was me hopelessly trying to make ASCSC work lol. Also, did you get to mess with VSDJSC and do you think it has any practical applications?

 

[Trent]

He does the same animation for the side taunt, he just now says "Super Sonic!" in a really dumb way. They nerfed "You're too slow!"

Down taunt he says "Come on!"

Up taunt is the same.

 

[Espy Rose]

If I hit ASC, I wouldn't know. The fight was too chaotic to really focus on what my spins were doing.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

sonics down special can also go upward when used in the air as i did it multiple times when i played. Dash attack is a multi-hit with a hard hitting kick at the end. Dsmash sends at a reallly nice horizontal angle. and his HA has far greater use from the time i had. Bair also seems to come out faster and auto cancels quicker. Nair's also stronger. Dash dancing is still possible too.

 

[Shariq]

He does the same animation for the side taunt, he just now says "Super Sonic!" in a really dumb way. They nerfed "You're too slow!"

Down taunt he says "Come on!"

Up taunt is the same.

That...is...quite a nerf. It's actually pretty stupid. For the down taunt the line "Come on!' doesn't sound too bad, but still, "Come on step it up!" became quite iconic as his taunt. Now his side taunt on the other hand. WTF! "Super Sonic!", what does that have to do with anything! "You're too slow" fits perfectly with the running in place animation. I hope they change it before release.

EDIT: I read somewhere else on this site that Sonic's side taunt doesn't say "Super Sonic" it says "Sonic Speed". Better than "Super Sonic" but still worse then the original line "You're too slow".

 

[Demon-oni]

If your looking for stuff to to see on saturday, here's my short list.

-Down,Forward, Back throws utility. Any of them good for kills? Combos? Tech chases?

-Homing attack. With its new speed, is it better used for gimping characters, and does it have any more KB to make it a more reliable finisher?

-Tilts. Any combo ability or follow up potential at all from any of them?

-Spin Dash. Does the charge itself have a hitbox? I need this so hard right now.

-Spin Dash > Dair > Spring combo we saw in the April Direct. Is it actually legit, or can it be dodged out of?

All I really got. New down smash is beautiful, Faster spin dashes are really good, homing attack actually locking on to opponents better is great, and having real kill potential is a god send. Shame Nintendo hates Nevada, or else I'd probably be looking up stuff myself.

EDIT: Also wanted to post this. Dair may be a possible kill move on the latent hit. Got someone near the vertical blast zone at 100%

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GsSgXlBWce4#t=51

 

[True Blue]

Don't know if this was said, but Side B looks like it can cling to the Ledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4MzRMlmz5g

Had this video of me messing around with side B a bunch cause it just weirded me out a lot. lol. But you guys could probably better notice if that was the case.

Edit: Man, I haven't been here in forever. lol Anyways sorry for the bad quality, and I think it happens around 1:50. Happens like twice.

 

[infomon]

Wow, that's fantastic. Yeah it grabs the ledge twice. That makes up for how side-B's trajectory will make recovery w sonic very different. Also, that vid shows SDJ being really good. I'm actually reeeaally loving how Sonic looks in this smash4!!

 

[Espy Rose]

SideB ledge snaps?
Man I'm loving Sonic more and more.

 

[XLR8TION]

That ledge snap Lol, and good **** wedge!

The side taunt nerf is very heartbreaking though =(

..but at least theres no tripping now Lol

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Anyone know the direction d-tilt sends in this game? Wondering if maybe we can juggle with it at low percents.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

The Side B sends you at such a weird angle. But I'm pleased it snaps onto the ledge like that. Approval on it.

 

[Demon-oni]

At first I saw the side B angle in the air as a nerf, but really it just acts like a safer version of dair that can ledge snap now, which is kind of neat if you're recovering high.

For anyone attending the event saturday, I was wondering if you could see if you can now use b moves after spring, as well as see if spring will still preserve an unused second jump? That would make for some great new recovery options that can mix the opponent up rather nicely if it works.

 

[Trent]

Confirmed; you cannot use B moves out of Spring or retain your double jump. It works the same way as it did in Brawl.

 

[infomon]

Thanks Trent. I'm disappointed, the fastfalling-side-B after Spring would have been sooo gooood

 

[War Anvil]

Who cares about B moves after Springing? You can still follow up with a Dair, especially if it spikes.

 

[infomon]

I just like having more options Although even in Sonic games you can't spindash in the air after a spring. Homing attack yes though. Hmm, I'll check homing attack after spring tomorrow, just to be sure

 

[WedginatorX]

Erm since you guys mentioned side B ledge snaps, I also believe I got spring to ledge snap on the way up like before i ascended to full height. Pretty sure most of his specials can ledge snap really easily now.

 

[infomon]

... which is interesting with regards to the new ledge-steal mechanics. Side-B might be a great way to quickly drop down and take the edge from someone, when you're starting above them. No idea if that's something you'll generally want to do or not lol

 

[WedginatorX]

We'll see. Not sure whether I'm going tomorrow or not but if I get to play I'm actually going to try to play like neutral game and actually use the character rather than test stuff. Just see how what I've thought of so far can be applied in actual gameplay.

 

[Camalange]

That Side B ledge snap is pretty interesting. Nice find! It's hard to theorize uses for it since the ledge mechanics of this game are so... Different... But if Up B is also able to snap to the ledge at a certain distance, that'd be really cool for Sonic. It's always kind of frustrating in Brawl that Sonic always has to recover high and has no real safe way to just snap to the ledge from below.

It astounds me the things that we discover with like 6 minutes at a Best Buy on a demo copy of the game. It's gets me so amped for when we own a final build and can just go to town on research.

 

[Espy Rose]

I always tell people if they had to recover in Brawl like Sonic does, that we'd edgeguard the crap out of most of them.
The fact that we can't snap the ledge from below is brutal.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Sadly i won't be able to go back to best buy today. >___< wanted to test the exact specification on landing that dair meteor spike, and the auto cancel frames on bair and fair. I know uair auto cancels about the same as in brawl. Nair seems to have a bit less ending lag from when i tried it out on the 3DS version.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Curious to know if grab releases still work when grabbing Sonic and characters with similar up-b's (now mega man I guess) when recovering. I was going to go today, but from the way you all make it sound, it seems like I'll get to play 1-2 matches on a limited time ffa with items in the span of 4-5 hours lol. Not feeling that drive when I can be playing the Destiny beta. Especially when I have no one to test things with.

 

[Espy Rose]

Anyone who got more than 1 game should count their blessings. I had to sit in a line for 3 hours on Wednesday to play one game. I got lucky that they randomly selected me to play the 3DS version.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

i got a total of 5 matches(3 on the 3DS 2 with sonic and 1 with greninja and 2 on the wii u all sonic) in on wednesday so i'm satisfied to some extent. though i hate how it was managed. You would think when they label it a "smash-fest" that they would understand the need for multiple demo kiosks as they should be well aware of the amount of people who are going to showup to these things.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I guess they'll write it up as a huge success, but from a fans perspective, these best buy events look like a flop. Waiting 3 hours to play a 2 minute match sounds brutal. Hoping they just do a demo for this installment before release and just have it in all gamestops or whatever. Nothing too early. Like a week or two before the game. I guess they weren't expecting such a huge turnout.

 

[Kuraudo]

Speaking of the ledge, I've come to inform you guys that Sonic DOES snap to the ledge from close out of his spring. The buffs just keep coming. In line again but I'm gonna play more Bowser.

 

[Camalange]

Curious to know if grab releases still work when grabbing Sonic and characters with similar up-b's (now mega man I guess) when recovering.

Great question, but considering the circumstances...

I was going to go today, but from the way you all make it sound, it seems like I'll get to play 1-2 matches on a limited time ffa with items in the span of 4-5 hours lol.

... Yeah. It's hard to test super specific stuff, which is why I'm surprised some people were able to find what they did. I was lucky and got to play Sonic three times on Wii U.

I don't want to reiterate too much of what's already known, but Uair autocancels virtually the same, if not even better.
Short hop > spring allows for autocanceled dairs (I still don't know the exact height at which it autocancels but that worked every time for me). You can also FSJ out of the Side B hop still which is cool (can't remember if someone confirmed that already or not).

Also, you can "dash dance" the same way you can in Brawl still... So that's not bad.
Foxtrot > DDP > Foxtrot > Repeat

From what I've played and what people have confirmed as far as new changes for Sonic, I'm very excited for this game.

Speaking of the ledge, I've come to inform you guys that Sonic DOES snap to the ledge from close out of his spring. The buffs just keep coming. In line again but I'm gonna play more Bowser.

^ For example, this. That's ****ing awesome!

I messed with a couple other characters too because I couldn't resist trying newcomers. I don't think Villager is for me, but Greninja is so fast and stylish. Really dig him. Megaman interests me, but didn't adapt as quickly with him as I did Greninja.

 

[Trent]

On Wednesday, the lady carrying around the 3DS let me play on it for like 15 minutes during Smash Run, so I spent the entire time messing around with Sonic's mechanics and feel. It felt like I was in training mode. Was pretty legit.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I do recall hearing that nintendo reps were taking feedback so i would suggest those who do get to play sonic talk to them about relaying back things that could be done to improve sonic. Granted so far the news we have about whats new sounds very promising.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Yeah, I only mentioned it because I know some people have been going with friends. Would be easy enough to test then. Well, it would be possible at least haha. I'm liking what I've been hearing/seeing from a few characters. Greninja and Sheik are both characters I'm interested in, but Sonic looks like he's going to be at the very least as good as he was in Brawl. Marth sounds awful. I'm sure he'll still end up being fine, just because he's Marth, but his grab game looks brutal. We're all probably diving way too far into this game already, as it could be a completely different feel once it actually comes out... but it's just far too much fun to dissect and analyze everything we have lol.

Edit: SOMEONE PLEASE TAKE A FULL MATCH JUST TESTING D-SMASH! Lol... I'm just really curious about this. It looks like it will be useful to punish dodges or rolls as it seems to come out fast enough. The range obviously looks reduced though from old d-smash and I'm really curious if it's any stronger as far as % and knockback/knockback angle is concerned.