New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[BronzeGreekGod]

I can't deal with this any more. I need to just back out of the Ganondorf clone arguments.

Its bananas!!

 

[ChronoBound]

Okay.. Delay the game

That wasn't an option. Nintendo was still being run by Hiroshi Yamauchi who was a rather iron-fisted CEO (though he basically made Nintendo into the company it is today, and on the whole is a legend to the game industry), and Melee was basically their biggest planned holiday title.

Sakurai has mentioned that there were several weeks where he and his team basically had to do all nighters to get the game done, and that getting the game complete on time was very stressful. I think Sakurai called it the most difficult experience he has ever had as a developer.

I am sure if Sakurai had the option of the delaying the game, he would have, but the higher-ups at Nintendo at the time would have just whipped him harder.

Contrast that with Iwata, who is friends with Sakurai, whom allowed him to delay Brawl past its originally planned Q4 2007 release date.

 

[meow]

Ironic how it turned out worse

 

[Fortress]

Ironic how it turned out worse

I'm sure this came up at some point during Brawl's development. Fires and all.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

That wasn't an option. Nintendo was still being run by Hiroshi Yamauchi who was a rather iron-fisted CEO (though he basically made Nintendo into the company it is today, and on the whole is a legend to the game industry), and Melee was basically their biggest planned holiday title.

Sakurai has mentioned that there were several weeks where he and his team basically had to do all nighters to get the game done, and that getting the game complete on time was very stressful. I think Sakurai called it the most difficult experience he has ever had as a developer.

I am sure if Sakurai had the option of the delaying the game, he would have, but the higher-ups at Nintendo at the time would have just whipped him harder.

Contrast that with Iwata, who is friends with Sakurai, whom allowed him to delay Brawl past its originally planned Q4 2007 release date.

Okay well this I suppose I can accept. But it's just so annoying that that decision created a precedence for Ganondorf and built a fan base for him. The cloned Ganondorf needs to be erased from memory for future games.

But also, if what you just said is 100% fact, everyone should be accepting of the Black Shadow/Ganondorf De-cloning idea. His move set was rushed.. he doesn't deserve that.

Anyway lets please stop there cause I know exactly what the arguments against this idea will be and lets get back to talking about other characters.. and if we wana talk about g-dorf lets talk about my alt costume idea if anything.

 

[Fortress]

Okay well this I suppose I can accept. But it's just so annoying that that decision created a precedence for Ganondorf and built a fan base for him./quote]

Ganondorf being a clone didn't create a 'precedence' for anything. 'clones' have been around in fighters for years, and years, and years, and years, and years. Just look at the Mario brothers (without instantly discrediting it), Pikachu and Pichu...

Look at the SNK parody that is Street Fighter's Dan Hibiki.

Help, I'm Fortress' text, and I'm trapped inside of this quote!

 

[Emg3]

I think PM should just throw this guy in and then call it a day.

(snowman from 1080 avalanche)

 

[meow]

If somehow we could add in a Castlevania character...since there is Dracula's Castle....
I need closure...

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Ironic how it turned out worse

Yeah, I mean at the time I was younger so I was just like ugh this is different at first, but then I just got used to it. But I don't think it was worse cause of having more time.. he just made poor gameplay decisions.

It was at this point, Sakurai realized "oh crap, the fanbase is going to kill me if I don't have Ganondorf", and used one of the clones to add in Ganondorf (Sakurai also said that if Falcon did not have a similar body shape as Ganondorf, he would not have even been in Melee).

I would have preferred him not being in if it meant he could be his own character in future games. Although they make a smash game every 10 years, but still.

And as a side note, I don't get why they don't make smash games more often. They're so slow with them, they could constantly work on the game and make it better and have a new release every couple years. They'd make a killing that way.

Anyway, sorry that's TOTALLY off topic, but it just came to mind.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Help, I'm Fortress' text, and I'm trapped inside of this quote!

Lol I'm too lazy to properly quote your trapped quote

Okay, so clones are TOTALLY fine with me! (I mean, I wouldn't want too many). But the problem is that Ganondorf friggin has a perfectly good move set that can be used - and a very interesting one at that! This is the ONLY reason I have a problem with him being trapped as a clone.
"Healthy clones" are great! I love Roy (way more than Marth). I even love playing as Ganondorf! His move set is great and fun! But that move set should be on someone else, not Ganon. No one else could be given the interesting and diverse move set that could have been given to him in the first place (and still should be given in P:M granted they could make it work).

Can't you see my plea?

 

[Fortress]

Lol I'm too lazy to properly quote your trapped quote

Okay, so clones are TOTALLY fine with me! (I mean, I wouldn't want too many). But the problem is that Ganondorf friggin has a perfectly good move set that can be used - and a very interesting one at that! This is the ONLY reason I have a problem with him being trapped as a clone.
"Healthy clones" are great! I love Roy (way more than Marth). I even love playing as Ganondorf! His move set is great and fun! But that move set should be on someone else, not Ganon. No one else could be given the interesting and diverse move set that could have been given to him in the first place (and still should be given in P:M granted they could make it work).

Can't you see my plea?

I get where you're coming from in that you would like to see a Ganondorf with a moveset more appropriate in his game's context, but the fact of the matter is, his moveset is based on Cap. Falcon's, who is based on nobody's in particular, save for generic attacks of the Smash. Bros series itself. The fact of the matter is, is that Ganondorf is simply powerful. That's his thing. That's the one quality of his that's apparent in anything he's ever appeared in, and Smash Bros. uses that. From a development standpoint, it would've been impractical for the development team of Melee to just stall the game's release just to get G-Man totally right. They were on a time crunch as it was, and being driven to what I assume was madness.

The one thing you need to take away from anything that anybody has said so far, is that nothing is going to change with the core of Ganondorf's character in P:M. It's who he was in Melee, it's who he was in Brawl, and PMBR don't change characters in that fashion simply for nostalgic purposes, otherwise I'm sure Cap. Falcon would not be who he is today.

 

[batistabus]

As of right now, it seems like characters will get one alt, and that alt will have it's own set of colors. Cool, but what about Pikachu and Puff? In the Mario Turbo video, it hints at (basically confirms) party hat Pikachu and crown Puff, but since their alt colors have always been represented with physical objects (hats), will that be the case in PM as well? It would be weird for Pikachu to have goggles, a baseball hat, a bandanna, and then 6 party hats. If a normal character has 12 costume options (6 regular costume, 6 alt costume), it might be over the top for Pikachu/Puff to have 12 completely different hats. I'd personally be fine with restoring Melee hats and leaving it at that, but it'd definitely be cool to see some brand new ones.

What do you guys thing? Not sure anything can be confirmed/denied at this point, but it was just something I was wondering about.

 

[Fortress]

As of right now, it seems like characters will get one alt, and that alt will have it's own set of colors. Cool, but what about Pikachu and Puff? In the Mario Turbo video, it hints at (basically confirms) party hat Pikachu and crown Puff, but since their alt colors have always been represented with physical objects (hats), will that be the case in PM as well? It would be weird for Pikachu to have goggles, a baseball hat, a bandanna, and then 6 party hats. If a normal character has 12 costume options (6 regular costume, 6 alt costume), it might be over the top for Pikachu/Puff to have 12 completely different hats. I'd personally be fine with restoring Melee hats and leaving it at that, but it'd definitely be cool to see some brand new ones.

What do you guys thing? Not sure anything can be confirmed/denied at this point, but it was just something I was wondering about.

I think you meant to post this in the Alt Costume thread. At least, that's my assumption seeing this here in the Clone Engine thread. Other than that, I think Pikachu and Jigs should definitely keep their multitude of hats, but nobody else should get five different alt costumes. Pika and Jigs have been, out of tradition it seems, the only to characters to have something like this.

 

[meow]

As of right now, it seems like characters will get one alt, and that alt will have it's own set of colors. Cool, but what about Pikachu and Puff? In the Mario Turbo video, it hints at (basically confirms) party hat Pikachu and crown Puff, but since their alt colors have always been represented with physical objects (hats), will that be the case in PM as well? It would be weird for Pikachu to have goggles, a baseball hat, a bandanna, and then 6 party hats. If a normal character has 12 costume options (6 regular costume, 6 alt costume), it might be over the top for Pikachu/Puff to have 12 completely different hats. I'd personally be fine with restoring Melee hats and leaving it at that, but it'd definitely be cool to see some brand new ones.

What do you guys thing? Not sure anything can be confirmed/denied at this point, but it was just something I was wondering about.

Adding different accessories isn't excessively hard, so it wouldn't be that over the top. I think they will have 12 different hats (or whatever) since that is their defining costume sets

EDIT: darn you Fortress beating me

 

[Fortress]

Adding different accessories isn't excessively hard, so it wouldn't be that over the top. I think they will have 12 different hats (or whatever) since that is their defining costume sets

EDIT: darn you Fortress beating me

I'm always watching.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Sorry for being late to the party, but I want to give my vote(s), too!

+1 Isaac. Another swordsman, but his other abilities could keep things interesting, and he's from an unrepresented series. He's an assist trophy, so he's more justified legally speaking. Everyone likes the guy.

+1 Ridley. Will give Metroid a well deserved second slot, and Ridley is the character everyone's hollering for. His moveset could be like a lighter and faster Charizard, with a decent amount of projectile play thrown in. He could be this size, which makes him quite big, but not too big for the cast. Plus this.

+1 King K Rool. A less serious character to round out the roster, as well as another villain. He could use Dedede as a base, which would probably make him one of the easiest clone to make. He's got a lot of interesting material to draw from for a movepool, and people love the guy. Could also give heavyweights more representation.

+1 Metal Sonic. A bit more controversial than my other +1's since he's third-party, but if there's going to be anyone from Sonic series, Metal Sonic is a good choice, since he's an antagonist (which is nice to have) and a classic for the series. I also feel that the "rules" are more allowably bent considering that this is a fan-made project; we shouldn't lower the developer standards, but it does it give us some freedom to add in things Nintendo would not or could not, for marketing or legal reasons. Why not use that power? MS has a lot of things he can bring to Smash. He could play as a slightly heavier Sonic, with about the same speed, but without quite a few of the movement options. Instead of the Spin Dash, he could have something like his Black Shield. Imagine how the metagame would change if you had something like a Fox/Sonic combo!

+1 Ray MK III (Custom Robo Series) This is probably the most radical of the choices, but hear me out. Ray's an assist trophy in this game, so he has a good amount of justification. He comes from a greatly loved series, if somewhat unknown, and he's got so much to draw from since his game was all about customization. The average robot in the game is listed as 32 centimeters tall, so I feel that can be used to give Ray a unique playstyle. He could be the glass cannon everyone wants; relatively strong, fast, and easy to combo with (with a focus on close- and mid-ranged attacks), but very light. He could probably be built over Samus, although some significant changes would have to come out eventually.

+1/2 Palutena. She'd give Kid Icarus another rep, she's popular among people, and she could use a Zelda base to keep things easy. She'd likely be stronger and have less range. I could see this one getting pushed to the wayside easily, though, whether through her inclusion in Smash 4 or simply not being interesting enough.

-1/2 Dixie Kong. I don't see there being much ingenuity here, and K Rool seems like a better rep for the series.

-1 Pichu. It's subjective, but I don't want a character that was intentionally bad and should be bad in its own right, at least canonically speaking. A balanced Pichu doesn't make sense, because Pichus are not balanced. The glass cannon approach people give is interesting, but I feel it's best done over Ray MK II or someone else. A self-harming character just doesn't sound appealing in a competitive environment, especially when it means the character who should be physically weak has to get stronger. Enough said, IMO.

Also, to weigh in on the whole Ganon thing, I'd let bygones be bygones. Things happened, and he was made differently than many would have wanted, but he's found a place for a lot of people now, myself included. The prospects of a redone Ganon don't interest me simply because I think he's defined in Smash by it now.

 

[trojanpooh]

I get where you're coming from in that you would like to see a Ganondorf with a moveset more appropriate in his game's context, but the fact of the matter is, his moveset is based on Cap. Falcon's, who is based on nobody's in particular, save for generic attacks of the Smash. Bros series itself. The fact of the matter is, is that Ganondorf is simply powerful. That's his thing. That's the one quality of his that's apparent in anything he's ever appeared in, and Smash Bros. uses that. From a development standpoint, it would've been impractical for the development team of Melee to just stall the game's release just to get G-Man totally right. They were on a time crunch as it was, and being driven to what I assume was madness.

The one thing you need to take away from anything that anybody has said so far, is that nothing is going to change with the core of Ganondorf's character in P:M. It's who he was in Melee, it's who he was in Brawl, and PMBR don't change characters in that fashion simply for nostalgic purposes, otherwise I'm sure Cap. Falcon would not be who he is today.

This. Add the fact that at the time of Melee Ganondorf had only been in one game and it becomes obvious why they made the choice that they did. People go on and on about how it was an insult to the character and how Ganondorf deserved better, but honestly he really really didn't. Hell, he was lucky to even be in the game at all, especially over the more often used Ganon. No matter how many times you try to say Ganondorf should be different it doesn't change that in every game he's ever been in he's had a completely different play style. He doesn't have a standard set of attacks that you can fully expect him to have in every game he's featured in. The only concrete trait he maintains is that he's a merciless power hungry brute, and his current moveset captures that perfectly.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

This. Add the fact that at the time of Melee Ganondorf had only been in one game and it becomes obvious why they made the choice that they did. People go on and on about how it was an insult to the character and how Ganondorf deserved better, but honestly he really really didn't. Hell, he was lucky to even be in the game at all, especially over the more often used Ganon. No matter how many times you try to say Ganondorf should be different it doesn't change that in every game he's ever been in he's had a completely different play style. He doesn't have a standard set of attacks that you can fully expect him to have in every game he's featured in. The only concrete trait he maintains is that he's a merciless power hungry brute, and his current moveset captures that perfectly.

I've made an argument about this a million times. Look at page 14 if you want the details, but Zelda and especially Shiek were both in the same position as Ganondorf when Melee was released and they got a great original move set mainly based off of OOT. Ganondorf in Melee could have had a great OOT based move set. I'll leave it at that.

We'll see what P:M does, I'm not expecting any changes for GDorf, but I sure hope that my some miracle they decide to do it. Especially my alt costume/clone engine idea (again look at page 14, or maybe its 15 for the more detailed explanation). There are a lot of votes for Gdorf receiving some kind of change.

 

[trojanpooh]

I've made an argument about this a million times. Look at page 14 if you want the details, but Zelda and especially Shiek were both in the same position as Ganondorf when Melee was released and they got a great original move set mainly based off of OOT. Ganondorf in Melee could have had a great OOT based move set. I'll leave it at that.

We'll see what P:M does, I'm not expecting any changes for GDorf, but I sure hope that my some miracle they decide to do it. Especially my alt costume/clone engine idea (again look at page 14, or maybe its 15 for the more detailed explanation). There are a lot of votes for Gdorf receiving some kind of change.

The difference is Zelda is clearly an important character to the Legend of Zelda series and Sheik is an offshoot of Zelda. Ganondorf could have been a one off interpretation of Ganon for all Sakurai knew.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

The difference is Zelda is clearly an important character to the Legend of Zelda series and Sheik is an offshoot of Zelda. Ganondorf could have been a one off interpretation of Ganon for all Sakurai knew.

Ehh I duno, I think you're getting flimsy with this argument. They still put Ganondorf in regardless, and Sheik was in the same one off position as Ganondorf. Why should Shiek get in as Zeldas transformation (why not Zelda be just Zelda since Shiek could have been a one off) but Ganondorf gets a clone move set. Also if he was a one off, why would they put him in Smash at all? If they were worried about this they could have excluded him altogether. PLUS I'm sure the developers of Smash and Zelda communicate in some way. It doesn't really make sense to argue this.

 

[Fortress]

Ehh I duno, I think you're getting flimsy with this argument..

It's exactly what it sounds like. Zelda's abilities are pretty well-known in-universe, so making her was a no-brainer. Sheik had to be played by ear, since we know little more than the fact that she's kind of a ninja.

Likewise, Ganon is a gigantic beast with lighting-y magic and a trident, and has been for years, and years, and years, where Ganondorf the man had his character and abilities established in only one game prior to his inclusion in Melee. He's just as much a hard-hitting, fist-pumping bodybuilder as he is a sorcerer, and who wants to play the beefy man from the west when he's using magic? I want to punch stuff.

Quit discrediting people's opinions like that. It's very rude.

 

[trojanpooh]

Ehh I duno, I think you're getting flimsy with this argument. They still put Ganondorf in regardless, and Sheik was in the same one off position as Ganondorf. Why should Shiek get in as Zeldas transformation (why not Zelda be just Zelda since Shiek could have been a one off) but Ganondorf gets a clone move set. Also if he was a one off, why would they put him in Smash at all? If they were worried about this they could have excluded him altogether. PLUS I'm sure the developers of Smash and Zelda communicate in some way. It doesn't really make sense to argue this.

First off, Sakurai couldn't have known Ganondorf's status as a reoccurring villain because the Zelda staff likely didn't know either, yet. That aside, the only reason Sheik got in is because having a transforming character would be cool and Zelda had an alter ego. Sheik got lucky too, make no mistake of that; if Sheik wasn't Zelda in disguise she never would have been in Smash. And it's been stated multiple times that Ganondorf got in because Sakurai was looking to pad the roster and he shared a build with Captain Falcon. However you feel about this is obviously open for opinion, but these are the facts.

 

[Chzrm3]

I've made an argument about this a million times. Look at page 14 if you want the details, but Zelda and especially Shiek were both in the same position as Ganondorf when Melee was released and they got a great original move set mainly based off of OOT. Ganondorf in Melee could have had a great OOT based move set. I'll leave it at that.

But that was already covered - because Melee was super rushed, Ganondorf was cloned. There wasn't an option in Melee to give Ganondorf a unique moveset, it was either clone him or not have him. And since his Melee moveset became a more pronounced embodiment of the character than his appearance in OoT, that's the one that stuck throughout the years.

You could argue that Smash Brothers is the most prominent appearance many characters have had. So many people know Ness because of Smash, for example. He never had PK fire or thunder in Earthbound, but he does in Smash - and as a result, Ness has been tethered to those moves. He effectively does have them, now. Sure, he didn't have them in EB, but he's had them in 64, Melee and Brawl. It's 3 to 1 at this point, and on top of that, all of the Smash games have had more exposure than EB, which means more people are familiar with this interpretation of Ness than any other.

This applies to so many of the characters, actually. Ice Climbers, Marth/Roy, Falcon, ROB, Lucas, Fox/Falco/Wolf, Sheik/Zelda, Pit, Game&Watch.... we know these characters because of other games, but Smash has truly defined them for us. A great example is how Sakurai went on to make a Kid Icarus game after Smash, using Pit's new look, voice, and personality.

I absolutely think it's valid and awesome that Ganondorf has become the Smash character he is today because of Smash. As many other people have said, the fighting style really does fit him - he's a beast in a man's body, and you can feel that power when your blows make an impact with people.

And again, Gdorf changes constantly. Look at Wind Waker's interpretation of him, or TP's.... or Skyward Sword's! To base his moveset off of any particular Zelda game would be a disservice to the character. Ganondorf isn't defined by "shooting purple balls". He's defined by unparalleled greed and ambition, and incredible strength. I really do think his moveset is perfect. =)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

It's exactly what it sounds like. Zelda's abilities are pretty well-known in-universe, so making her was a no-brainer. Sheik had to be played by ear, since we know little more than the fact that she's kind of a ninja.

Likewise, Ganon is a gigantic beast with lighting-y magic and a trident, and has been for years, and years, and years, where Ganondorf the man had his character and abilities established in only one game prior to his inclusion in Melee. He's just as much a hard-hitting, fist-pumping bodybuilder as he is a sorcerer, and who wants to play the beefy man from the west when he's using magic? I want to punch stuff.

Quit discrediting people's opinions like that. It's very rude.

I wasn't disregarding his point, sorry if it sounded that way.
What I was trying to point out was that Sheik was a one off character as well and she could have been excluded completely. And the fact that Sheik got her own move set, and that Ganondorf got in just tells me he should have had the same treatment.

First off, Sakurai couldn't have known Ganondorf's status as a reoccurring villain because the Zelda staff likely didn't know either, yet. That aside, the only reason Sheik got in is because having a transforming character would be cool and Zelda had an alter ego. Sheik got lucky too, make no mistake of that; if Sheik wasn't Zelda in disguise she never would have been in Smash. And it's been stated multiple times that Ganondorf got in because Sakurai was looking to pad the roster and he shared a build with Captain Falcon. However you feel about this is obviously open for opinion, but these are the facts.

Ya got it, and I respect your opinion too. The facts are the facts and that's fine, but it just really bothers me that Ganondorf had to be given clone status, and making arguments that can be applied to other characters that made it in are a bit "flimsy". I don't mean that in a rude way at all, I just don't think certain arguments make any sense.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I've made an argument about this a million times. Look at page 14 if you want the details, but Zelda and especially Shiek were both in the same position as Ganondorf when Melee was released and they got a great original move set mainly based off of OOT. Ganondorf in Melee could have had a great OOT based move set. I'll leave it at that.

I'm not so sure you can say that Zelda and Sheik have movesets based off of their OoT appearance.

All Zelda did was magically open doors. She can't even do that in Smash.
All Sheik did was play the harp. She can't even do that in Smash.

Aside from transforming and stealing magic that Link used in OoT, the game didn't really give that much inspiration for their movesets. Hell, Zelda doesn't even use the magic in the same way Link did, and I don't believe she has ever used magic in an even somewhat similar fashion as she does in Smash.

That said, I can see these characters performing these moves and having these movesets. Just as I can see Ganon having his Smash moveset.

We'll see what P:M does, I'm not expecting any changes for GDorf, but I sure hope that my some miracle they decide to do it. Especially my alt costume/clone engine idea (again look at page 14, or maybe its 15 for the more detailed explanation). There are a lot of votes for Gdorf receiving some kind of change.

The PMBR isn't going to give alternate movesets to different costumes. Even if they can, and I'm not sure it's possible, they already said they wouldn't have different characters on the same slot. Doing so would just be sloppy. Different movesets/characters go on different slots, that's the way it is.

Additionally, I don't think you can say that "There are a lot of votes for Gdorf receiving some kind of change" like there's even slightly a consensus among the community. An adjusted tally of 17 up-votes (in a thread where not everybody is even voting) to change a mod with 65,000 downloads (and who knows how many individual players) does not sound like a lot of votes. That's still true at this point in time for all characters. I don't think it is safe to say there is a consensus on any character at this point.

Either way, this argument is pointless. We've already said all we can, all we can do at this point is rehash the first few pages of this thread.

Instead, let's talk about why Big the Cat is the best character and why he should be in Smash Bros. First off, fishing pole. He could be a grappler of sorts, and use it for all sorts of zany attacks as well. He'd be like a giant Zero Suit Samus...

Alternatively, I will accept a Chao.

[collapse=I mean, look at this mighty warrior]

[/collapse]

I trust in you PMBR, don't fail me.

 

[Fortress]

but it just really bothers me that Ganondorf had to be given clone status

That's not a bad thing, though. It shouldn't carry such a negative stigma with you. Take Mario and Luigi. Aside from five attacks (F-Tilt, F-Smash, F-air, D-air, F-Special), they are essentially the same character. Now, I lied. That would be somewhat true, if not for the key differences in their character. Luigi is floatier than Mario, Mario has more traction than Luigi, and those two differences turn them into completely different characters with entirely different playstyles. Luigi's wavedash is applied in a different manner than Mario's; with movement in mind instead of spacing and positioning. Mario's jump height is lower and he falls faster, leading to a more ground-centric game than Luigi for the most part.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are in the same boat. Their weights, fall speeds, move speeds, and overall striking power are so vastly different, so completely polarizing that they're entirely different characters. And, on the plus side, Ganondorf still uses magic. His up-special, the Dark Dive? The sparkling you see from that? Does it not remind you at all of when he lifts himself from the ground in the final confrontation in Ocarina? Is the Warlock Fist not the greatest show of the physical and magical prowess for which he's known? And what of the Flame Choke? Clearly a demonstration of the way 'Dorf enjoys to play with his power, what with how he takes his time in zapping you to death whilst choking you out. That's how I've always seen Ganondorf's magic blend with his sheer physical power in a setting that would make sense in the Smash Bros. universe.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I'm not so sure you can say that Zelda and Sheik have movesets based off of their OoT appearance.

All Zelda did was magically open doors. She can't even do that in Smash.
All Sheik did was play the harp. She can't even do that in Smash.

Aside from transforming and stealing magic that Link used in OoT, the game didn't really give that much inspiration for their movesets. Hell, Zelda doesn't even use the magic in the same way Link did, and I don't believe she has ever used magic in an even somewhat similar fashion as she does in Smash.

That said, I can see these characters performing these moves and having these movesets. Just as I can see Ganon having his Smash moveset.

Well that's the thing... Zelda and Sheiks move sets are very loosely based on their appearances in Zelda games, while Ganondorfs are not in any way based off of any Zelda game ever (especially to any game before Melee's release). It was easy for Sakurai to come up with a good move set for Sheik and Zelda based on what has been seen in Zelda games in the past, so my point is that the same could have been done for the G-man.

I get the whole time constraint thing, it just blows to the max that they had to rush it, and I still think based on that, now that Sakurai has more time he should de clone Ganon for Smash4.

That being said, I don't expect the PMBR to make any of these changes, its just something i have some hope for cause they're friggin epic!

Either way, this argument is pointless. We've already said all we can, all we can do at this point is rehash the first few pages of this thread.

Ya I can agree that we don't need to argue about this any more. Its just hard not to make a point when someone says something I disagree with lol.

And don't worry, the PMBR can't possibly fail you or anyone, they're geniuses, and everything they've done so far is perfect!

 

[Fortress]

Well that's the thing... Zelda and Sheiks move sets are very loosely based on their appearances in Zelda games

they got a great original move set mainly based off of OOT.

Graaaaaaaaaaa just pick one.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

That's not a bad thing, though. It shouldn't carry such a negative stigma with you. Take Mario and Luigi. Aside from five attacks (F-Tilt, F-Smash, F-air, D-air, F-Special), they are essentially the same character. Now, I lied. That would be somewhat true, if not for the key differences in their character. Luigi is floatier than Mario, Mario has more traction than Luigi, and those two differences turn them into completely different characters with entirely different playstyles. Luigi's wavedash is applied in a different manner than Mario's; with movement in mind instead of spacing and positioning. Mario's jump height is lower and he falls faster, leading to a more ground-centric game than Luigi for the most part.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are in the same boat. Their weights, fall speeds, move speeds, and overall striking power are so vastly different, so completely polarizing that they're entirely different characters. And, on the plus side, Ganondorf still uses magic. His up-special, the Dark Dive? The sparkling you see from that? Does it not remind you at all of when he lifts himself from the ground in the final confrontation in Ocarina? Is the Warlock Fist not the greatest show of the physical and magical prowess for which he's known? And what of the Flame Choke? Clearly a demonstration of the way 'Dorf enjoys to play with his power, what with how he takes his time in zapping you to death whilst choking you out. That's how I've always seen Ganondorf's magic blend with his sheer physical power in a setting that would make sense in the Smash Bros. universe.

Yes, I obviously realize Ganon and Falcon are VERY different characters! And Sakurai did a pretty good job of masking Ganons clone moves to make him feel like he uses magic and make him feel like Ganondorf, not like Falcon. I've said I love playing as Ganondorf as well! Furthermore, the fact that there is a clone of Falcon is fine, my problem lies with the fact that Ganon could have had such a cool, diverse, and completely original move set, which has been thrown in the trash for him to have another characters moves. That is all.

Does that not upset you at all? No one else could have a move set like Ganon could have had. It just had so much potential.

Anyway blah.

 

[meow]

I just fell in love with what they gave him you know
So much that I don't even want him to get something new cause what he has is such a good definition of what he can do

Ganon is a really cool guy and playing him against CF just makes it funnier to me
You can watch me in my first terribad "combo" video

 

[Chzrm3]

Ganon's fair is so good, honestly. Every time I connect with it, it's like PAMP.

 

[Fortress]

Yes, I obviously realize Ganon and Falcon are VERY different characters! And Sakurai did a pretty good job of masking Ganons clone moves to make him feel like he uses magic and make him feel like Ganondorf, not like Falcon. I've said I love playing as Ganondorf as well! Furthermore, the fact that there is a clone of Falcon is fine, my problem lies with the fact that Ganon could have had such a cool, diverse, and completely original move set, which has been thrown in the trash for him to have another characters moves. That is all.

Does that not upset you at all? No one else could have a move set like Ganon could have had. It just had so much potential.

Anyway blah.

Well, no, it doesn't upset me at all. As a Zelda, erm, 'fanatic', and having grown up with the series since I was three (seriously, when I moved up from Mississippi, I had no idea what a video game was; the Legend of Zelda for the NES changed that). To myself, Ganondorf, the man, has always been a force of cunning magics and raw physical strength befitting only the holder of the fragment of Power.

Besides, Ganondorf is becoming more and more his own character. From the transition to Melee and Brawl, and from Brawl to Project M, and now within P:M itself, Ganondorf is finding his own moveset. Granted, we won't see any drastic changes like a projectile, but he's slowly becoming his own dude. Don't worry about the 'could've's, the 'should've's, and the 'why not's'; the fact is, Ganon turned out the way he did. Nothing can change that outside of a fan PSA that you can run on your own version of P:M. The way you feel about how the dev team as a whole (i.e. not just Sakurai) handled G-man's implementation won't change the fact that this is how he is portrayed. In fact, he's portrayed this way outside of Ocarina more than he is in the game, which makes me laugh.

Also, you're confusing Ganon the beast with Ganondorf the man; the man who was depicted as being a force of raw destructive power in Ocarina, his only appearance before Melee.

Ganon's fair is so good, honestly. Every time I connect with it, it's like PAMP.

That back hand is cash money though. Mmmf.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Graaaaaaaaaaa just pick one.

I think you're misunderstanding the 2 points. The first point says that their move set is loosely based off of Zelda games, the second point is saying that the move set that they have acquired is original to SMASH bros, and the inspiration was taken mainly from Zelda games. Where else would the inspiration come from? Maybe the word "MAINLY" is out of place.. So I can replace that word with "loosely" as well.

The point I'm making is that clearly Zelda and Sheik take some kind of inspiration from previous Zelda games while Ganon has taken slim to none.

Ganon's fair is so good, honestly. Every time I connect with it, it's like PAMP.

This and the Sparta Kick I approve of.

 

[Fortress]

The point I'm making is that clearly Zelda and Sheik take some kind of inspiration from previous Zelda games while Ganon has taken slim to none.

Sheik literally only played the harp and threw deku nuts in Ocarina. Ganondorf punches things, zaps dudes, and just has a grand ol' time playing with folk in Ocarina. If you ask me, Ganondorf has more of a proper presentation in Melee than Zelda did.

Ganondorf's phantom throws spheres of light, and so does the man himself, but that's literally the only attack that Ganondorf (the man) uses in the final confrontation. He really has a pretty shallow pool of techniques to choose from, himself. Unless you count the floating, but, why would anybody want to play a floaty Ganondorf?

 

[meow]

I love his jab
So much cockblock

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

We're just succumbing to the same debate again. We have to stop, and just move on with the discussion. I'm to blame as well, but we can be better than this.

Just... agree to disagree...

Moving on to serious and, frankly, more important discussion: Big the Cat.

He could be based off of D3 as well as ZSS. Instead of throwing Waddles he could throw Froggy. Thoughts?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Well, no, it doesn't upset me at all. As a Zelda, erm, 'fanatic', and having grown up with the series since I was three (seriously, when I moved up from Mississippi, I had no idea what a video game was; the Legend of Zelda for the NES changed that). To myself, Ganondorf, the man, has always been a force of cunning magics and raw physical strength befitting only the holder of the fragment of Power.

Besides, Ganondorf is becoming more and more his own character. From the transition to Melee and Brawl, and from Brawl to Project M, and now within P:M itself, Ganondorf is finding his own moveset.

I can partly agree with this, and I can kinda see what you're saying with his beast form being pure power.

Granted, we won't see any drastic changes like a projectile, but he's slowly becoming his own dude.

The projectile is probably top on my list for issues. The projectile NEEDS to get in there. Its his signature move from every Zelda game!

Don't worry about the 'could've's, the 'should've's, and the 'why not's'; the fact is, Ganon turned out the way he did. Nothing can change that outside of a fan PSA that you can run on your own version of P:M. The way you feel about how the dev team as a whole (i.e. not just Sakurai Yeah I do realize this I just say Sakurai for simplicity) handled G-man's implementation won't change the fact that this is how he is portrayed. In fact, he's portrayed this way outside of Ocarina more than he is in the game, which makes me laugh.

What games before Melee is he portrayed this way?

Also, you're confusing Ganon the beast with Ganondorf the man; the man who was depicted as being a force of raw destructive power in Ocarina, his only appearance before Melee.

I'm actually not confusing them lol. I just use "ganon" as short form. I'm saying that Ganondorf should have been more based on OOT because thats where GANONDORF came from. The beast form was in his previous games.. and even there he used projectiles.

That back hand is cash money though. Mmmf.

We're just succumbing to the same debate again. We have to stop, and just move on with the discussion. I'm to blame as well, but we can be better than this.

Just... agree to disagree...

I'm not trying to debate right now, I'm just having a conversation with another guy about Ganondorf lol

 

[Fortress]

I'm not trying to debate right now, I'm just having a conversation with another guy about Ganondorf lol

He was portrayed as a sly playboy of a man in the manga, which came around after Ocarina. My case rests with the fact that Ganondorf performed one, single attack in the entirety of Ocarina, even in cutscene.

And I'm a woman.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Ganondorf's phantom throws spheres of light, and so does the man himself, but that's literally the only attack that Ganondorf (the man) uses in the final confrontation. He really has a pretty shallow pool of techniques to choose from, himself. Unless you count the floating, but, why would anybody want to play a floaty Ganondorf?

Moves used in OOT:

Paralyzing, reflectable orb/scatter shot
Flying
Ground punch with shockwave
Cape reflect
Dark magic pushing forcefield thing in the piano room

There were no dashing kicks, flip kicks, uppercuts or anything of that sort in OOT. The Warlock punch is the one move that makes the most sense because of the ground punch.

And I'm a woman.

My bad!

 

[trojanpooh]

The projectile is probably top on my list for issues. The projectile NEEDS to get in there. Its his signature move from every Zelda game!

It's actually only really his signature move in OoT. In WW only Phantom Ganon has it and in TP only Zelda has it.