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Need help with the Peach match up

Hulka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
71
Location
SoCal
I need help figuring out what to do in the neutral vs peach and cirtain punishes. I know you should up smash when peach is falling from above, and I know the grab combos, but that's it.
 

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Peach's bair is a big problem for Luigi in neutral. You need to very carefully mix up your spacing and timing of your own bair to properly contest it and force Peach into a situation that you can win more easily. Make sure to employ moonwalks to help you trade with her bair. Bair -> waveland utilt -> uair -> fair is a nice low percent punish that you can use.
Your opponent should quickly adapt to usmash height with their floats in neutral--use uair to begin contesting floats of all heights. Be wary of her fair and bair of course.
Catch every single turnip she throws at you. Wavedash throw is a very strong option in many situations that can get you past her defensive wall and open her up for punishes. Tornado through turnips is a solid mixup to catching them as well.
Recover high. Peach is too good at covering Luigi's linear recovery options to try to get back to the edge after a strong hit. Use fireballs to counter her zoning.
Use fireballs to counter her zoning. Peach's neutral and approach can often be seen as lanes. Fireballs (and turnips) can force Peach out of her lane and Luigi's burst speed can punish the transition from air to ground or ground to air.
Be patient. Mix it up. It's going to be a long fight no matter what so don't rush yourself. Except when you should.
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
Verda Stelo's post pretty much nails it but just to emphasize some things:

- Uair is really solid when peaches know / learn to float higher to avoid Usmashes. It comes out fast and hits in front / above initially just enough to mess with her.

- You can probably get away with baiting out lots of dsmashes on platforms if you are below peach. Try to wait for the dsmash to come out, then hit them with an SH Uair or Fair.

- Recovering high is a good idea a lot of times but if you're forced to use the side-b, it could be difficult to avoid a Nair or Uair punish on your landing lag. At times I'd opt to go for lower recoveries while trying to dodge turnips and offstage aerials by throwing out fireballs or your own aerials. The same can be said for when you need to actually grab the ledge- throwing out an Uair to hit peach when she's trying to Dsmash at the ledge or doing a floating Dair. If her Dair does connect, I would try to SDI the attacks in whichever way would hopefully not lead to getting hit by a Nair immediately afterward (like maybe SDI out if they aren't moving during the float, maybe SDI in if they are moving forward, or maybe SDI up so that either the Nair misses entirely / you could jump or Nair response).

- This is one of the few matchups in the game where I feel like Luigi really can't afford to be aggressive. At best, if you're playing a good enough (or lame enough) peach you're going to need to be really cautious with your approaches and probably play passive-aggressive (i,e, only going in once you can guarantee an opening or if she is already in a bad position).

- Even though it can be hard to get guaranteed follow-ups off of a throw, grabs are still important even if it's just to put peach it a less advantageous spot or to just keep up pressure. There are times where you might be trying to combo peach and a grab is really the safer bet to avoid either getting attacked out of tumble / stun or potentially being hit / grabbed out of shield. Not to mention, if you don't grab much, the peach won't really feel all that worried about shielding all the time and at the very least won't feel as much pressure IMO.

- Stage choices for both characters are not terribly in favor of one character or the other, but for more campy peaches, I might avoid stages where they can sit under a platform and throw turnips all day or ones that give her too much space. Peach can do that on any stage with platforms obviously but IMO, FoD can be tough to deal with this on due to the odd heights of the platforms if you need to approach from above. Also, Usmash is such a good kill move on peach that having a lower ceiling could be another factor worth considering, such as going to YS or PS (and that's maybe another reason to not go to FoD, considering the relatively high ceiling yet narrow sides- which could make it easier for her to kill you given that her best kill moves will usually send you horizontally).

Hope that helps and isn't terribly hard to understand (hard reads lol)
 

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Vist what do you think of FD vs Peach? In some ways it makes her floating and consequential frame positive shield pressure feel very oppressive, but I also feel like it could be limiting to Peach. Both characters use platforms for various reasons; Luigi uses them to move around Peach and contest her floating from more angles, Peach uses them to chase Luigi in combos where her double jump is inadequate. The blast zones and sloped edges favor Luigi. I've been wrestling with this for a while.

PS is another question for me. In most aspects of favors Luigi but golly turnip camping under a side platform is pretty hard to deal with when you can't reasonably threaten from above.
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
Vist what do you think of FD vs Peach? In some ways it makes her floating and consequential frame positive shield pressure feel very oppressive, but I also feel like it could be limiting to Peach. Both characters use platforms for various reasons; Luigi uses them to move around Peach and contest her floating from more angles, Peach uses them to chase Luigi in combos where her double jump is inadequate. The blast zones and sloped edges favor Luigi. I've been wrestling with this for a while.

PS is another question for me. In most aspects of favors Luigi but golly turnip camping under a side platform is pretty hard to deal with when you can't reasonably threaten from above.
I think FD is a good pick in this matchup. I like the stage a lot in general but also I think if anything it favors Luigi somewhat. It limits her in the sense that she can't camp as easily and approaching her from above will be easier but also, platforms give her a place to throw out dsmashes and pull turnips (not to mention being a safe haven to regain double jumps). Landing back on the stage is arguably far more difficult for Peach on FD than for Luigi, given how quickly he can move in and out and throw out moves like Usmash.

As far as PS, the side platforms definitely pose a problem but at the same time the platforms aren't actually very wide which makes it easier to actually connect attacks like WD off -> FF aerials. On other platform stages (except for FoD), the platforms are really too wide to hit depending on the spacing.

The width of the stage and the blast zones are really what make the stage desirable IMO. In the regular transformation, you have a lot of room to move around horizontally, and it's not going to be terribly easy to die off the sides (which is how Peach kills- i.e. fthrow, fair, dsmash, nair etc). And the low ceiling makes it easier to kill off of your effective killing tools (Usmash, Nair, upB etc).
 

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Camping the top platform, especially on BF and DL, is a viable strategy versus Peach. She either has to expend her double jump or approach from the side platforms to reach you. You have to be smart about it because Luigi isn't as good at platform camping as Fox or Falco, but you can really extend your lead by doing it. Right now Luigis aren't big on camping as it isn't exactly natural with his tools but it's the best way to fight on your own terms in matchups like this.
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
Camping the top platform, especially on BF and DL, is a viable strategy versus Peach. She either has to expend her double jump or approach from the side platforms to reach you. You have to be smart about it because Luigi isn't as good at platform camping as Fox or Falco, but you can really extend your lead by doing it. Right now Luigis aren't big on camping as it isn't exactly natural with his tools but it's the best way to fight on your own terms in matchups like this.
Good point. I guess even if you don't necessarily choose to go to BF or DL directly, it's good to keep platform camping in mind to make the stages work for you.

The only thing that I don't like about platform camping in this matchup is when the Peach doesn't really bother approaching and instead starts pulling turnips like a madman and ends up pulling a potentially game-changing item :facepalm:
 

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
https://youtu.be/ilC2EOjtT2I

Nice win over DoH at the last S@X. I really like how the use of platforms played out between the two of you throughout the set. You occasionally retreated to the platforms but usually you were threatening to set up camp and then just challenging Peach from above AFTER he had to react to you not landing. Peach doesn't like it when people are directly above her, and she definitely can't challenge Luigi's dair. Later after DoH tried to use the platforms himself you were making really good choices about how and when to approach (Luigi's jumps too strong) or establish your space on the ground. Were you banning FoD? What did he ban after the game he won?
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
https://youtu.be/ilC2EOjtT2I

Nice win over DoH at the last S@X. I really like how the use of platforms played out between the two of you throughout the set. You occasionally retreated to the platforms but usually you were threatening to set up camp and then just challenging Peach from above AFTER he had to react to you not landing. Peach doesn't like it when people are directly above her, and she definitely can't challenge Luigi's dair. Later after DoH tried to use the platforms himself you were making really good choices about how and when to approach (Luigi's jumps too strong) or establish your space on the ground. Were you banning FoD? What did he ban after the game he won?
Thanks, man.

I feel like I played a lot safer that I would have had I been playing more frequently but that was probably for the best. I didn't really have high hopes for how I was gonna do that day and it eased some mental blocks + allowed me to focus on playing more effectively (and lamer lol).

I did ban FoD, which is mostly for the reasons I mentioned before but I personally don't care for the stage all that much in general. I lost in WF to him and I think in that set he beat me on FoD which was his counterpick.

I think he banned either YS or PS after the game he won in GF. He might have forgot that I cp'd final in WF but I'm not sure.
 

P@RA

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
21
Location
NJ/NY/Boston
I was really liking the Nair OOS when DoH was at kill %. I always forget to take advantage of the speed and kill potential of the Nair off the top. I also like jab --> shoryu (which I saw you try) on DL because it does kill relatively well despite the huge blast zone.

What advice do you have on recovery against Peach? I get abused a lot since Peach can just float out to you doing green missles. I also feel like DoH was really respecting the misfires, and so he wasn't really challenging you offstage as much.

Btw I thought was so sick when you punished a get-up attack with a SH Dair perfectly spaced right above Peach.
 

Vist

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 13, 2003
Messages
2,059
Location
Pasadena, Maryland
I was really liking the Nair OOS when DoH was at kill %. I always forget to take advantage of the speed and kill potential of the Nair off the top. I also like jab --> shoryu (which I saw you try) on DL because it does kill relatively well despite the huge blast zone.

What advice do you have on recovery against Peach? I get abused a lot since Peach can just float out to you doing green missles. I also feel like DoH was really respecting the misfires, and so he wasn't really challenging you offstage as much.

Btw I thought was so sick when you punished a get-up attack with a SH Dair perfectly spaced right above Peach.
Thanks man. DoH definitely wasn't challenging me offstage as much as he could have, but either way I'd suggest trying to be more careful about when you're using the side b if the peach likes to go offstage a lot.

Basically, you just don't want her to be able to easily match her float height with you when you're moving forward during the forward b animation. If you can get her to commit to actually doing a float while you're charging or before you charge, then it's usually just a matter of letting go of the charge sooner (to go above her) or later (to go below her). You might get lucky with executing the forward b straight-on if they fail to react to the timing or if they do an aerial too soon and leave themselves open to getting hit as the aerial is ending.

So I guess I just think of it as there being 4 different ways to recover with respect to doing the forward b:
1. Don't use it at all and just focus on using your double jump, down b, and up b to recover; possibly using your own aerials to hit her when she gets too close.
2. Use it just enough to get you slightly closer to the stage but still far enough away to make it hard for her to hit you out of it. Then use your other options to recover the rest of the way.
3. Use the forward b to recover high (like on a platform etc)
4. Use the forward b to recover relatively low (as in aiming for somewhere just below the stage height but as close to stage as possible).

If you are going to go with either of the last two options, then usually you'll want to go for fully charged forward b's unless you're likely to get hit and need to end the charge early.
 

Hulka

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
71
Location
SoCal
Thanks man. DoH definitely wasn't challenging me offstage as much as he could have, but either way I'd suggest trying to be more careful about when you're using the side b if the peach likes to go offstage a lot.

Basically, you just don't want her to be able to easily match her float height with you when you're moving forward during the forward b animation. If you can get her to commit to actually doing a float while you're charging or before you charge, then it's usually just a matter of letting go of the charge sooner (to go above her) or later (to go below her). You might get lucky with executing the forward b straight-on if they fail to react to the timing or if they do an aerial too soon and leave themselves open to getting hit as the aerial is ending.

So I guess I just think of it as there being 4 different ways to recover with respect to doing the forward b:
1. Don't use it at all and just focus on using your double jump, down b, and up b to recover; possibly using your own aerials to hit her when she gets too close.
2. Use it just enough to get you slightly closer to the stage but still far enough away to make it hard for her to hit you out of it. Then use your other options to recover the rest of the way.
3. Use the forward b to recover high (like on a platform etc)
4. Use the forward b to recover relatively low (as in aiming for somewhere just below the stage height but as close to stage as possible).

If you are going to go with either of the last two options, then usually you'll want to go for fully charged forward b's unless you're likely to get hit and need to end the charge early.
That set was awesome, I learned a lot along with reading your comments. Mind critiquing this set I had? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TYcHw6PpR2I
 

J1mbo

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
Messages
9
Location
QLasn
Vist i love you, you are my second favorite Luigi lmaoaoaoaoaoaoooooo abte to gud
 
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