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My thoughts on these tier list

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Dark.Pch

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People are now making tier list for this game. (keep in mind not everyone has their hands on the game) And the *** version has only been out for a short period of time. People are just blind right now. They think if a character is hard to use and can't be figured out, that they are bad. It's a lazy mentality. If a character has a gimmick they can get away with or can't figure out, they are good in their eyes. This is why I call nearly all tier list I see crap. (really this one) In the future when the game is in the hands of many, I feel the tier list will stay to be crap. The way people think when making a tier list is something I don't approve of.

Here are some common mistakes I feel people do ALOT when making a tier list or judge a character in general:

Play the character for a few mins:

People play the character and try out a few moves. if something feels laggy or slow, people judge it as it making the character bad as a whole. People focus too much on weakness more then anything. What about the strengths. How well you can use the characters strengths to cover their weaknesses. figure stuff out. Don't touch the character for a while, can't do something or judge by the naked eye and call them weak. People went on about how peach Fair is crap now cause it lags. I spent time when I had the chance to actually find out that you CAN auto cancel her fair. You can even short hop Fair and auto cancel it. But if I was to touch her for a few mins and move on, this would still be under the radar. And now I made my character a lil better finding this out and explaining how it is done.

Character has fast/gimmicks/spamable moves:

This is one of the big ones to me. So you find something that about a character that seems good. Quick. Some gimmick. You play someone and you win by doing it. What most people would do is state that this character is great and wins vs so and so. But here is what people need to ask. Do you seriously understand the character your opponent is using? Their options vs your character? If you do, do you know your options vs his/her options? And if you know that, what is the difficulty of dealing with set options. A lot of people don't ask that. That's why tier list are mostly crap in my eyes. A tier list mostly holds strong with characters that are used so much in tourney and place high. Cause it's all you ever see. So people would be ready for that more then anything. Anything below that is flawed.

Note: What I stated above can also apply to the loser.

Lose matches:

Human mentality. People don't like to lose. More so in the competitive scene. If you have a love for your character and they are hard to win with, you might run off to a character with more tools and gimmicks. This way, you win more, and feel good about yourself as a player later. (some cases you can still get your butt handed to you cause your opponent is actually smarter then you think, knows their options vs you and is not falling for day one tricks). While this is NOTING WRONG WITH PLAYING TO WIN, the price you pay is not seeing what your character might be able to do against said character. I don't care if you tried ten times. If something is hard, you can't expect over nite results. Easy things come quick, hard things come at a slow pace. There might be something you can do on a character, but can't pull it off. You get mad, feel like the opponent is just throwing out attacks depending on luck. You are getting hit. Feel stupid losing to hit. You are not thinking. Can't focus. THE HELL WITH IT, IM SICK AND TIRED OF IT. I TRY TO BE LEGIT BUT IT DOES NOT GET ME ANYWHERE. I'M WHIPPING OUT THE CHEAP CHARACTERS!

You never learn this thing that could help. You have no clue how it would have went. You don't know if it could have gave you a good chance to win. You have no idea if it would have change the match up ratio. There are followers in the community. If they see this, they won't even try. They will use them for causual/friendlies. Tournament time? Character is a complete waste of time. I'm only gonna use them against noobs so I can give my character credit on the result list like I actually did something big with them.

Skill level:

Now lets say the opponent knows how to use the character. They understand their moves and the likes. if they don't have any fundementals of a fighter, playing them means nothing to you. There is no planning, no baiting/ Pressure, mix ups, stage control, ledge pressure. Playing your friend that started 2 weeks ago is really nothing. That does not give you a great experience compared to someone who knows all is fundementals. I have people come to me saying they played their friends Peach and know what to do back then. I did not play like their friend, I know more then they do. And the result was me beating them bad. This is what people tend to use a lot to judge a character or match up. It's a bad way. The only thing you are gonna be tested on is learning day one gimmicks and beating it. Advance players of said character will not be playing like that. (unless they see you as a weak player and don't respect you in matches. Beat them for it and make them respect you.)
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The way a tier list should be made is by doing the opposite of what I stated above outside of asking those questions for the first part.

-Make sure the characters for said character actually know their stuff. They understand each others options.

- Make sure both players know their fundementals fully

- Make sure these players are tournament players. They have been to many tournies and travel a lot. Compete in them as well.

This is how I feel a tier list should be made. As well as stating how a match up goes. How well can one go through the reoster to get 1st. Based on this. But I feel a lot of people are lazy and its too much work. Really with characters that take a lot of time and effort. And the cause of this is human mentality. How you are seen as a player with your results. Your image. All this and more up in the brain decide all of this.

So if none wanna go through it....who will? Are people gonna be mad and debate about another list yet again. You gonna sit there on your PC starting at the list and let it rock. Follow what the high level players are saying cause they high level placing in tournies and know it all?

The game comes out next week. Wether new to the scene or not. You still have a shot to do something. Not let meta games for characters remain deal. Not have answers for these gimmicks and let people get away with it for free. if you are gonna lose, make them work for that. This is all up to you and your tolerance.

All this info can also be used to help you get better with your character. You can follow what not to do. Trust me, people already have gimmicks with characters. And they will use it on you. Take your time to research. Come up with ways to deal with it. Don't play as a flow chart. For the time being, you can get some clean wins against a lot of players in the phase of the game. Take advantage of it while you can.
 
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I've always used the characters I preferred over the characters that the "tier list' says are the "best".
It really takes the fun out of things to play someone who doesn't connect to you in some sort of way. You should play the character that best reflects who you are and how much the character means to you as a whole.


Like this guy...<3
Er...to me at least!
 
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Dark.Pch

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I feel characters people pick a lot do reflect their personalities.

And what a tier shows me ( if I consider it to be legit) is just how much work I have to put in to win. it never has me think I can't win.
 
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I feel characters people pick a lot do reflect their personalities.

And what a tier shows me ( if I consider it to be legit) is just how much work I have to put in to win. it never has me think I can't win.
That's exactly what I think too! I mean, when I'm faced against a character that's supposedly ranked higher then mine...I always think; "I'll be putting in the most effort and skill regardless of who wins. So I shouldn't feel bad about how I performed either way."
I mean- as long as you're having fun and giving it your all....it shouldn't matter.
 

BRoomer
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I agree with you 100%. People continue to do this long after a game is out too. Because a character is low or mid teir they will no longer try to explore said character. Sad but... I don't have that mindset so it doesn't bother me much.
 

Dark.Pch

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What people can do is look at then and say if they think they are good/bad. Just like people did in trailers Nintendo streams before japan release. That's totally.

But a tier list is something that can make one sound foolish and is seriously irrelevant.
 

Dark.Pch

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No, ready what I said carefully.

"The game comes out next week. Wether new to the scene or not. You still have a shot to do something. Not let meta games for characters remain deal. Not have answers for these gimmicks and let people get away with it for free. if you are gonna lose, make them work for that. This is all up to you and your tolerance."
 

shogungari

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"The way a tier list should be made is by doing the opposite of what I stated above outside of asking those questions for the first part.

-Make sure the characters for said character actually know their stuff. They understand each others options.

- Make sure both players know their fundementals fully

- Make sure these players are tournament players. They have been to many tournies and travel a lot. Compete in them as well."


Not saying it's a good or bad approach, just saying that's how other competitive places do it. Only the best players are allowed to test if a Pokemon is too strong for that tier or not. From what I'm reading, it sounds like that's what's going to happen with this game.
 
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Dark.Pch

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If you don't know how to fix a car, I'm not gonna ask you. I'm gonn ask someone who knows how to fix one.

Smash terms, I'm not gonna go for you for the best info on match ups and characters if you are not really good with them or know your options in competitive. This does not mean you can go and learn yourself. And once you do, people can't learn from you. Fighting my lil sisters Rosalina is not gonna help me beat a top Rosalina player who travels and knows his stuff.
 
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shogungari

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If you don't know how to fix a car, I'm not gonna ask you. I'm gonn ask someone who knows how to fix one.

Smash terms, I'm not gonna go for you for the best info on match ups and characters if you are not really good with them or know your options in competitive. This does not mean you can go and learn yourself. And once you do, people can't learn from you. Fighting my lil sisters Rosalina is not gonna help me beat a top Rosalina player who travels and knows his stuff.
Like I said, I can't say if it's good or not. By your standards my opinion wouldn't matter- I don't enter competitions and suck against a player who knows what they're doing. I mostly come here for tricks and tips. :/

I agree with you in that we need more in depth investigations of the characters, if only because your decisions will sway players a lot more than you'd expect.
 

「 Derk 」

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Tiers are based on players not characters. If a certain character lacks a good player then they are "deemed" a bad character because there is nobody showing them otherwise. There have been many cases where someone has taken a character that was currently low tier and dominated people with them. Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, and Yoshi just to name a few. Meta Knight was not always seen as a broken character until someone dominated a tournament with them. Was Yoshi always a bad character or did aMSa tap into the characters full potential? A character never changes, how we play them does. This is why you can watch 10 different Marth players and every single one of them is unique. A tier list in a game like Smash where all characters are viable is pretty stupid to begin with. This is not Pokemon where tiers actually group things to make the game balanced so what is the point? Another point that skews tiers is how many players use each character. If there are 30 Fox players in a single tournament and only 1 Yoshi player which one do you think has a better shot at higher placement?
 

Dark.Pch

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You don't have to be god like. One does not need to be a top player. If you know a lot and involed in the competitive scene, that is good enough. I know a lot of people that are not top players but go in with their character in terms of info and match ups, cause they do it a lot.

Don't let that statement discourage anyone.

Tiers are based on players not characters. If a certain character lacks a good player then they are "deemed" a bad character because there is nobody showing them otherwise. There have been many cases where someone has taken a character that was currently low tier and dominated people with them. Meta Knight, Ice Climbers, and Yoshi just to name a few. Meta Knight was not always seen as a broken character until someone dominated a tournament with them. Was Yoshi always a bad character or did aMSa tap into the characters full potential? A character never changes, how we play them does. This is why you can watch 10 different Marth players and every single one of them is unique. A tier list in a game like Smash where all characters are viable is pretty stupid to begin with. This is not Pokemon where tiers actually group things to make the game balanced so what is the point? Another point that skews tiers is how many players use each character. If there are 30 Fox players in a single tournament and only 1 Yoshi player which one do you think has a better shot at higher placement?
That's why I said before its up to players to actually do something. Human mentality. If they don't, then people will have these BS opinions and statements on them, and they don't even take the time to look into the character themselves.

But if you are gonna make a tier list, learn about the characters and match ups before you go spitting stuff out like it is legit. Anything else is just being lazy and the list is not legit. All you go on is placing. That's it. That does not show me at all just what a character is about. It just tells me how many people run to said character and how the rest don't like lowered placed character, complain about how they suck or they too hard to win with.

Saying a character is bad cause no one uses them or hard to use is stupid. How would one know what the character is really about if people aint really going in with them? Keep judging with your naked eyes.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Honestly, any tier list that comes out sooner than mid-2015 is pretty much useless. There's so many unique characters and matchups in this game that it'll take at least that long to get a general feel for how characters stack up against each other at a high level. If we decide to include custom movesets, it could take years to really figure out this game, so just be patient and play whoever you like, and don't just try to find the next MK and hop on the first high-tier bandwagon you come across. Just remember that people have been finding untapped potential in characters 3-5 years into the lifespan of Brawl, and even later than that in Melee, so it's pretty ridiculous to write off any character 2 weeks into the game.
 

Karaoke Man

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I smell too much win in ths thread. What Dark.pch is saying is exactly what I've been trying to tell people in the tier list thread and other places; The tier list is just a generalized perception of how characters are ranked based mainly on what has been more commercialized in just tournament results alone....Even though there are other factors to be considered for any kind of ranking. Something like... ya know.... Player skill.

No attendance= No results= No rising on any tier list

They way Brawl tier lists have been, are pretty much like the way Pokemon does their tiers; They base their set of skills off of how often they are used, but never once have I heard heard of any 1 Pokemon being "bad" with a proper strategy. A player using a Pachirisu to win the Pokemon Championships is a very good example.

I will say though, I don't think we should only have top players for character discussion, but we also need a variety of people of the same characters with the credibility of experience to take part in it so that the discussion will not seem lazily biased and will be further considered with different insights.


People that play characters (below Hight Tier) like :peach: or :mario2: are people who generally hold very strong conviction and always stick to what they believe in. They instinctively know that no tier list created from the perception of fragmented/incomplete data determines what makes any character "good" or "bad"; They are the ones that do, aaaaand so am I.



 
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TL?

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I've always used the characters I preferred over the characters that the "tier list' says are the "best".
It really takes the fun out of things to play someone who doesn't connect to you in some sort of way. You should play the character that best reflects who you are and how much the character means to you as a whole.
Like this guy...<3
Er...to me at least!
Are people still patting themselves on the back for playing the characters they actually like? Everyone likes their characters, they just have different reasons for liking them.
 

BRoomer
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When I played melee I played samus because she fit my playstyle. (I liked the character... kirby is my favorite nintendo character and my least favorite play style in smash) I sub mained pichu with the intent of proving to the world how amazing pichu REALLY was.

When I played brawl it took me a few months to land on sheik. I thought she was a solid character. she fit my play style and I did well with her, even though I knew there were character I could get more consistent results with I stuck with sheik; in part because of confort, but I think a driving for was once again me trying to prove how strong she was.

This time I'm just out to prove how good I am. I don't need to prove anything else. I don't need to play a character I'm attached to in order to do that. And thats not to say I'm going to try and climg the tier list. My brawl MK was one of my worst characters, I just can't wrap my head around his infinite good options... my brain doesn't work that way. I will pick a character that does what I do best even if it is someone gross like wario or something.
 

BSP

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Your first point is why so many people think Mario's FLUDD is useless. They didn't bother to experiment with it. No, it doesn't do any damage, it *just* pushes. That push can be deadly at the right time though, and its presence can (and does) limit some characters' options. Plus, with how Smash 4 nerfed landing with airdodge, being in the air is even worse. In just a few minutes with the demo, I could tell Mario's FLUDD had more pushing power, and I do think pushing people into the air, off of the ledge when they don't expect it, etc. is going to be a very big deal with the new mechanics. I can't wait to try it all out.

I'm probably going to use Mario in every MU unless I stop having fun in a particular one.
 

Orngeblu

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I like agile fighters, and mostly close combat, though I don't mind a few projectiles here and there to cover my approach. Pikachu, Shiek, and Greninja come to mind. Greninja will be my main because I love Ninja or Assassin-like characters, and Greninja hit home for me. I haven't played Pokemon X/Y, and this character is by far my favorite. He's agile, possibly has some combo's up his sleeve, and a unique kit that revolves around ninja-like attacks such as Shadow Sneak, Water Shuriken, or even water Katana's he forms out of water. I have to admit though, I was kind of worried he might not be very strong of a character, but I did my research and I know he'll be very well. I don't care how good he is on the tier list as long as he's viable.

And if you see in my signature, I main Zed in League of Legends because he's a Ninja/Assassin in that game. (Just saying Assassin's reflect my personality)

I don't know of any people who have been making tier lists though, but last I checked, tier lists based off tournament results, NOT personal opinions.
 
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JamietheAuraUser

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Your first point is why so many people think Mario's FLUDD is useless. They didn't bother to experiment with it. No, it doesn't do any damage, it *just* pushes. That push can be deadly at the right time though, and its presence can (and does) limit some characters' options. Plus, with how Smash 4 nerfed landing with airdodge, being in the air is even worse. In just a few minutes with the demo, I could tell Mario's FLUDD had more pushing power, and I do think pushing people into the air, off of the ledge when they don't expect it, etc. is going to be a very big deal with the new mechanics. I can't wait to try it all out.

I'm probably going to use Mario in every MU unless I stop having fun in a particular one.
FLUDD is pretty neat if used right. It can force an opponent's options to let you get a hard read, or even gimp by itself.
 

Dark.Pch

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I don't know of any people who have been making tier lists though, but last I checked, tier lists based off tournament results, NOT personal opinions.
And that's is not a legit tier list. The true meaning of a tier list is something I see people fail follow by over and over. A tier list is not based on solo results OR opinions. If one was to say a tier list based on results, and then make one, I have no problem with it at all. But time and time again people fail to ignore what making one actually means. And just lazy about it. When a tier mist is made for this site on smash 4 I want you guys to remember all that was said here, and then go look at it. And you will see the constant errors people will make and not follow yet again.

For my character, I'm gonna do something about it, cause its something I have never agreed with in this community for years by the BackRoom. I seriously don't like how they work with it. The only thing I will give them is that people are not showing anything for them with said character. So if nothing is being showed, they can't just wait to come out with a list. Cause in that case, one would never come out. So they have to base it off of something. And the next best thing is results. I still say they can do their own homework, but that's just me.

If you don't plan to do anything about it, you can't get mad or complain about where your character is. You can go in with your character, hit the smash government (Backroom) with some info, data. Let them know whats up. This is a community, everyone plays a part in this to show what characters can do and make the game more fun for the competitive sense. Game is out next Friday. Now is your chance. Watch vids of the ****. Ask questions, find stuff out. And this is not only for the community to do, but the smash government as well. Don't think we are gonna sit here and do all the work for you. You were chosen (in the future) to be in the smash 4 back room for a reason. And I surely hope its not a BS one.

I goofed and failed to do this in brawl. But I'm not making that same mistake again.
 

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SmashBoard's tier list are literally a popularity contest. a bunch of guys get together talk about stuff and then vote. None of them are experts on every character and every match up, and even if they influence each other's thoughts none of them have the same opinions on who goes where and more importantly why. D.Pch know's brawl peach like the back of his hand, I doubt he knows about jigglypuff combos and rest traps. He would of probably had peach WAY up there on his list if he was inducted jiggs would probably be pretty low though. I am probably one of the most knowledgeable brawl sheik's for a short time I was considered the best I would of had sheik top ten, I play jiggs pretty seriously in brawl. I frame trap with bair's punish conditioned spot dodges with rest on reaction. dair to rest combo. I play lame and force approaches. I punish landing lag with roll out. I took a set of lain's MK with my jiggs. Jigg isn't great by any means but DEFINITELY would be high on my list than a lot of the cast.

Would D.Pch have been wrong? Who can say.
Am I wrong? likely.
Does it really matter anyway though? No not at all. humans just like lists. Humans like to see what some sort of evidence that there efforts have done something. But while a placing may change someone's opinion on your main the list will never change how strong or weak your character is.

I said it somewhere else, but It is relevant here too
Tier lists are neat and all, but they are never correct. At best they can only reflect the knowledge we have at hand and that knowledge is always expanding especially in a game like smash brothers. Figure out what works do it until it doesn't anymore.
 

Dark.Pch

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Making a list is one thing. Not following the reason and points of said list is where the problem is.

Tier list is suppose to shoe the abilities of a character in general and against the rest of the roster. This is always negated for being lazy. judging a book by its covers, and silly tourney results. That is not a tier list. If people are gonna do that, then don't call it a tier list. Just say its based on opinion or tourney results. People don't do that.
 

Raijinken

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I eventually stopped insisting that tiers don't exist, but I will never stop believing they result in a feedback loop of playing the high tier characters more and developing their metagame more. Still, I just play characters I like, as I am not pro. And I guess it's unfortunate for me that character strength in Smash has no influence on how much I like them.
 

tttt

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Honestly the tier list will probably not be even 90% correct until the end of 2015 or middle of 2015, maybe later. This game seems more balanced than other smash games but we never know, there could always be that Yoshi or that Metaknight.
 

Nintendrone

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I'm ok with tier lists, but I hate it when people treat them like bible. I think the most objective (although flawed) early tier lists should be based on tournament results alone, no theorycraft. Until people manage to find hard ceilings to the potential of characters, there will never be a tier list that's objective.

Also, it bugs me that the Back Room, the one making the tier lists and stage lists, is not only invisible and private, but also lacks a place for directly giving them vital info.
 

KiskeQ

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The problem with tiers right now, is we just had the game launch on one place, and with few people that got it worldwide for the japanese version, so we have little solid information about the potential of all characters
 

syfy

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dang dude you wrote an essay on this...

I'm with you, man. I agree.
 

A Lucky Person

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I think the folks who're making these lists are just super anxious about the game in general and just need to wait to get their hands on it. This is a magical time: you can use any character you want and nobody can factually tell you that that character is a good/bad/even matchup for their character.

Enjoy this while it lasts. Don't push us into the future of labeling characters just because you're anxious.
 

Daybreak

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Tournaments do get results from time to time, but what if the majority of people only play that character from hearsay? "This character always wins the tournaments!" No one would want to try other characters because they feel the tier list is god. You wont know the full potential of a character by just saying they are bad. A tier list is forged from many fights, only from experienced players. People will never understand the real potential behind a character because everyone rallys against them. Instead of giving support and finding ways to make the character better. The people who learn "low tier" characters are the ones who will win the 'know-how' battles of tourneys. Every character has weaknesses; how you act upon them in entirely up to you. As long as you play a character you love disregard everything anyone else says.

It's only a list. You don't have to buy chips if you don't want to. It's your money~
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
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Dark is speaking the absolute truth, its what ive been trying to tell people over and over again which they will always reply with
"Show me some results." or something along those lines.

Tourney results dont matter! I wish more people would think like this, especially a lot of people in PM. They see a character win and they're like "welp, I guess we'll move this one up and this one down... btw that move is broken cuz he used it alot" or something like that, and they disregard player skill completely. Player Skill has wayy more weight than tiers ever will... unless that character is utterly broken (the closest anything has gotten to that is Brawl MK, and hes not even close to utterly broken). People just need to go into the lab and mess with the characters options, strengths, and weaknesses... learn your fundamentals, and you'll see that almost any character is viable lol. Like Dark said, it just shows how much harder you have to work, not that "oh these characters suck, so only play these."

Dont get me wrong, there is a best character and there is a worst character, but from what ive seen most people dont understand fundamentals enough to know if a character is good or not. Unless everyone is at TAS level tier lists will never be accurate, but the closer people get to that (aka the Top Players) the tier list will become more and more accurate.
 
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Fenrir VII

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
3,506
Just wanted to pop in and remind people that Pikachu and Yoshi were both thought to be low tier for YEARS in Melee. Any idea of a tier list now will be proven wrong in a year or two.

Find a character that you like to play and can do well with, and work out their metagame. No sense in dropping a char because somebody else thinks they're bad.
 
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RascalTheCharizard

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
987
You are getting hit. Feel stupid losing to hit. You are not thinking. Can't focus. THE HELL WITH IT, IM SICK AND TIRED OF IT. I TRY TO BE LEGIT BUT IT DOES NOT GET ME ANYWHERE. I'M WHIPPING OUT THE CHEAP CHARACTERS
This was me for a long time in Project M. I look back on those days with disgust and after a certain day where I had a bit of a breakdown I have dedicated myself to improving with Roy, only using him instead of wimping out and switching to Pit (among others) in tournaments and working on improving my fundamentals instead of relying on gimmicks like Double Edge Dance tricks.

If I cannot beat something, I should man the **** up and learn how to beat it. It's more satisfying to put the effort in instead of cheesing my way through and it's more benefitial in the long run as it helps me to grow as a player.
This time I'm just out to prove how good I am. I don't need to prove anything else.
This is in my eyes the best mindset imaginable. I've learnt a few times (especially in a game that isn't Smash) that if you're playing a character as part of some moral stand, you're playing that character for the wrong reason. People should play a character because they want to succeed, that is all. That's not to say you have to succumb to Tier Pressure, it's just that if you use a "bad" character, you must be prepared to break all barriers. From that game-that-must-not-be-named I was a mediocre player for at least a year and a half. I was known for advocating the use "lower tiers" but a lot of players looked down on me for being the whiny scrub I was. Then one day I started working on a "project" for several hours at a time and I showed the game the potential of a character that everyone, including myself, wrote off immediately. At one point I was just outside of the Top 100 ranked players and I had finally become known and reasonably respected for my battle prowess rather than my obnoxious forum posts. I came up with a philosophy that was "If your character isn't good, you MAKE them good".
TL;DR for this section of my post - Actions speak louder than words.

People shouldn't care about where their character ranks, only about how much they can prove themselves. However we go about proving ourselves is a unique journey. If we "prove the potential" of a character along the way, great. If not, it doesn't matter.

-------------------

So back to the original topic. I totally agree with you that early tier lists are silly and formed by ignorance. People will call characters good and bad, which isn't necessarily a problem and I personally think it's good to share viewpoints but tier lists have a very definitive nature to them, even though tier lists change over time. For someone to say "Yes, this character is better than this character by this amount but is not as good as this character", especially at this point in the game's competitive lifespan, is farfetched. Every person only knows so much about not only their character(s), but all of the others in the game as well. NO-ONE can pinpoint every character's position relative to the rest of the cast right now and it's possible that they never could.

On the subject of gimmicks and winning by exploiting holes in an opponent's knowledge, I feel as though this is why Sakurai banned custom moves in With Anyone. If some random doesn't know what a move does or how to beat it, then that must be a problem right? No! That player should should just figure out proper counterplay. (That said, with the amount of custom moves in the game, it IS a legitimate point to put forward that learning all of them can be duanting and some players would rather not bother and just keep the game as simple as possible.)

I had more to say about tier lists, player understanding (both present and future), gimmicky play and "scrub" mindsets but I forgot a lot of the stuff I contemplated as I wrote up this mammoth post.
 
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McX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 26, 2014
Messages
40
Location
Sydney, NSW, Australia
Tiers are overrated.
If a character feels right to you, then pick that character. I like the feel of ike; the feel of meta knight felt wrong to me in brawl.
People can amaze you with the things they can do, no matter how bad the odds are. I've had plenty of experiences with that.
 

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
9,187
Tier list (at their base) are fundamentally flawed. When I choose a character, I stick with it until I decide their playstyle isn't for me, then I move on. At no point do I look at a the tier lists.

Dispite being flawed, tier lists are instead a list of who's winning in the competitive scene. Really, winning shouldn't be the most important thing.. after all, this is just a game. Have fun with it!
 
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Deleted member 268018

Guest
It doesn't matter how BAD the Tier List is. Just relax. Over time, the system will fix itself. You're talking about the Preseason of Football here. People will make wild predictions based on nothing. Let them.
 
D

Deleted member 268018

Guest
Tier list (at their base) are fundamentally flawed. When I choose a character, I stick with it until I decide their playstyle isn't for me, then I move on. At no point do I look at a the tier lists.

Dispite being flawed, tier lists are instead a list of who's winning in the competitive scene. Really, winning shouldn't be the most important thing.. after all, this is just a game. Have fun with it!
Tier Lists show the best characters, period. There is nothing wrong with a Tier List. But hell, in Brawl I fought with Ganondorf, and won quite a bit. That being said, "Ganondork" is the absolute worst in Brawl, and I have to agree. He's really slow, and none of his attacks besides his A are really non-punishable. Tier Lists are based on thousands of people playing over a long period of time. The longer the amount of time, the more accurate the assessment. Just give the Tier List time.
 
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