My thoughts on Marth and why I feel he is fine

[Emblem Lord]

For those that don't know me, I am Emblem Lord. I did alot of analyzing when Brawl first dropped and freely shared strats and match-up knowledge. I consider myself a scholar, scientist, theorist and competitor of fighting games. I do not call myself a master or even an expert. I just claim to have a passion for learning, teaching and sharing.

I'm making this thread to share some of my thoughts. Really I want the Marth forums to come to a certain...realization. That realization is that you don't understand Marth the way you THINK you do. A few people do. Alot of them are high level players. But most of you don't. That's ok though. The important thing to remember is context and relativity. If you say Marth is worse or Marth is weak, you then need to ask yourself in what context is he weak/nerfed? Relative to whom is he weak/nerfed?

The nerfs that people are talking about are mainly his increased recovery on Short Hop Fast Fall Fair as well as a supposed range decrease. The range decrease thus far has been shown to be unfounded. No one has hard evidence really. It's alot of hearsay. The only explanation I have for that is quite reasonable. The lack of a c-stick combined with the smaller scale of Smash 4 on 3DS is most likely a huge factor in Marth players mispacing moves and not hitting their opponents how, when and where they want. Of course with testing and time it could be discovered that he did get a range nerf but thus far I have not noticed any such nerfs on his moves. Ok, so moving on.

Marth's fair has increased recovery. This has been shown and proven. Its easy to see. From Brawl Marth to this Marth its a nerf. Certainly. BUT, within the context of Smash 4. It's not a nerf. Why? Play with the other characters. EVERYONE has increased recovery on aerials. Not just Marth. And many characters have far worse recovery on aerials than Marth does. This means that the metagame or the way the game is played at the highest level, has shifted from aerial combat and footsies to ground based combat and footsies.

For those that don't know, footsies is the war to control the space thats between both combatants. It's usually that mid range when both characters are 1 to 2 character lengths apart. Marth excels at this. He always has in fact. Even in Melee this was his playstyle. But in Melee crouch cancelling existed so relying heavily on pokes could get him killed. Luckily he had high conversion off grabs and errant hits that led to huge damage combos. So his rushdown was rewarding enough for a Marth player to dedicate their play style to rushdown. But Marth is NOT a rushdown character.

Now you may say Marth is weaker because he no longer has all those conversions from grabs and can no longer combo with fairs. Yes, weaker compared to his past incarnations. But that doesn't matter. We are comparing him to the current cast in Smash 4. In this game Marth cant be CGed. Falco cant control space so easily with lasers. Diddy can only have one banana. MK has been toned down. See what I'm getting at? Relatively speaking he is actually ok because he no longer has to worry about tools from characters that gave him a hard time before, and alot of craziness has been toned down. If RCO lag is gone then that's even BETTER. Marth is fine relative to the cast.

He is not a combo monster, but he wasn't designed to be so. Exploits gave him those possibilities. Marth is an aggressive footsie/poking character. He controls space with his speed, mobility and range. A good term used in other fighting games is bull dogging. You push your opponent into bad situations and flow from those bad situations into another and another. You create trap situations that are difficult for your opponent to escape and leave you at advantage. You essentially lead your opponent to their own demise. Fei-Long in the Street Fighter 4 series as a great parallel example of this if you need a character in another fighting game to draw a comparison too.

Mikeneko does just this in Brawl and it works. This is what Marth is. Using precision, thought, and grace combined with incredible power when you play him, correctly and strike at the right moment.

As far as combos and set-ups, we will find those as we test and play the game. I'm not saying he is top tier. I'm saying he is solid and his ACTUAL gameplay has not changed and he will more then likely still beat on the characters he used to beat on. At this point I think his worst match will be no more then 4/6, but alot of the crazy nonsense that gave him problems before has been checked or removed.

Marth is looking solid and can still fair to control space and cover options while maintaining his positioning. His grabs still leave him with stage positioning even if follow-ups no longer exist. He is still a character that can dictate the flow of the match. That is Marth, The Hero-King.

 

[peNNy]

Very well written, kind sir.

Im looking forward to get back to my melee roots and rocking good old marth again

 

[Ussi]

Nothing to see here

 

[A2ZOMG]

Except Lucina can use aerials just fine from short hop with all of them having no landing lag.

They took Marth's aerial game and gave it to Lucina. At least it looks that way.

Current observations point to Marth and Lucina having identical frame data. So your point is?

 

[Xyro77]

Just going by previous smash titles, when there is a clone situation, they are never the same. The moveset may be identical but the properties are different.

Once the WiiU version is out, I think we will find many differences between the characters other than Lucina overall doing more damage.

 

[Masonomace]

That, is quite an OP Emblem Lord. Your thoughts about Marth is very plausible to me. All this time playing Marth from Melee transitioning to Brawl, now to Sm4sh, I feel Marth is fine as well, considering the balances that most of the cast acquired coming into this new era of Smash. No matter how altered the game's physics engine feels, or how much change isput in, Marth will still retain his fencer-esque play-style. Whatever setbacks or advantages he gained, Marth will remain at least as a decent character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Except Lucina can use aerials just fine from short hop with all of them having no landing lag.

They took Marth's aerial game and gave it to Lucina. At least it looks that way.

Do a short hop fast fall fair with Lucina. There is the same landing recovery as Marth.

Do not spread misinformation. You will confuse people.

 

[Xinc]

This is a golden thread. It's very interesting to read. We've been comparing Marth to his previous versions while we should have been comparing him to the cast. This is a crucial part. Though Marth's style seemed to definitely have changed to a more defensively oriented style this time around, it's still difficult to say as the game is still in its early meta stages. Without the C Stick, opponents and we also lose a small asset that will be a differentiating factor between how the 3ds and Wii U version will be played.

 

[Shaya]

Wow EL, totally vetoing my own thread with similar thoughts

Literal nerfs don't equate to weakened viability is the main point any of the older caste/experts are trying to ensure everyone understands.
Lucina has nothing that shapes her better and until we see otherwise anyone spreading the notion that Lucina is just better are not only naive, they're plainly wrong.

New DI mechanics in this game; Vectoring (I've been holding off talking about this, but it's public knowledge now) benefits us more than others. Characters will be able to get out of combos that the initiating character will not have the frame trap tools to capitalise on, however this is exactly the scenarios Marth excel in. Marth's tipper fsmash being a near perfect 45 degree trajectory means that the survivability of the move with good DI has been cut down, and the move is noticeably stronger than it's brawl counterpart.

Lucina will struggle to be getting kills we'll be capable of getting at 70-90%. That's fact.

The nerf to down tilt's angles will suck a lot of his dominant grounded nature I was hoping he would maintain.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I see people complaining about Marth all the time but then continue to play the same way. Marth has amazing tools like his Pivot F-tilt/F-smash with allow him to so a pseudo wavedash away from the opponent while simultaneously controlling space. He has a shield breaker tipper that can kill uncharged at 70% (Not even kidding). He has significantly less landing lag on his Dolphin Slash, counter hits harder and can still autocancel his aerials.

I really wish I could upload the replays I have saved to show what Marth can do in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude tell me how did shied breakers recovery feel? Better, worse or the same?

Also can you test pivot d-tilt. Might take some practice but if he can do it consistently I think it will do wonders for his grounded control metagame.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Dude tell me how did shied breakers recovery feel? Better, worse or the same?

Also can you test pivot d-tilt. Might take some practice but if he can do it consistently I think it will do wonders for his grounded control metagame.

The shield breaker recovery time feels about the same as it does in Brawl, but does significantly more shield damage.

I was testing the pivot tilts to see if I can do u-tilt and d-tilt, but so far I couldn't do them. However, I was able to do pivot F-tilt, F-smash and U-smash. I have already worked pivot F-tilt into my spacing game and it looks and feels incredibly smooth. I think that with a c-stick pivoting other tilts may be possible and smashes may be possible.

I would do testing right now, but the 3DS is my friends, and I'm in school right now so I can't do it at the moment. I may be visiting him this weekend though, so I'll tell you what I find out.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Very well written. I agree with you and enjoyed your insight.

Also I'm not sure if this is just visuals but it seems the "spread" of his attacks is increased similar to what it was back in Melee. I'm talking about the "area" of his attack; in Brawl his fair covered less than half of his front, Melee covered half his front or even slightly more. Also, the range of the attack stayed very consistent in Melee throughout his sword swings, whereas in Brawl it starts short and gets long at some points (for example, his fair in Brawl starts close, and has the most range at horizontal or slightly below horizontal).

Even though his max range might be decreased slightly, he seems to have gained bigger sword arcs and overall more sword area. This should really help with his graceful style, having laster longing and more flexible swipes that allow him more options. I think I prefer this over Brawl, where they prioritized keeping a little more of the aspect of Marth having long melee range than a more agile, graceful Marth.

(Another example is his uair, in Brawl it hit less than 180 degrees above him but now it seems to be 180 or slightly more).

I think this direction will be a lot more fun and interesting and overall a better design not just for Marth but also for the game as a whole. It'll create less chance of a MU ending up being polar due to Marth having too much range for a character to handle well. Also, I think the reduce of range but increase in sword "area" and attack duration will encourage more aggressive play and definitely compensates for any slight decrease in range he's gotten. Even though his range isn't much longer than many other character's (especially due to the direction Sakurai has taken since Brawl with giving characters more range in general and lessening the gap between that and sword users which really helps balance things out), he still has a disjointed hitbox and I think that's still more important to Marth than simply having more range.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Though Marth's style seemed to definitely have changed to a more defensively oriented style this time around

Is it actually more defensive (independent of changes in global mechanics), or has the manner of his offense simply changed? EL's use of the term "bulldogging" seems appropriate to what I've seen so far, and it doesn't so much connotate a shift into defensive gameplay as denote a subtle shift in his offensive play.

 

[Xcano]

Marth is fine because he's too awesome to be bad

 

[Xinc]

Is it actually more defensive (independent of changes in global mechanics), or has the manner of his offense simply changed? EL's use of the term "bulldogging" seems appropriate to what I've seen so far, and it doesn't so much connotate a shift into defensive gameplay as denote a subtle shift in his offensive play.

Well, I meant in defensive as baiting people, waiting for approaches, trying to force them to make a mistake or lure them in so you can attack. It's kind of passive aggressive, but I do call it defensive for some reasons I don't know.

 

[AuraWielder]

I still think Marth will be a good character in SSB4. Even with a few nerfs, I should get the hang of him pretty quickly once more. I mained him in Melee/Brawl/Project M and a few nerfs won't stop me now.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I still think Marth will be a good character in SSB4. Even with a few nerfs, I should get the hang of him pretty quickly once more. I mained him in Melee/Brawl/Project M and a few nerfs won't stop me now.

I remember when Brawl was new a lot of people were saying Marth was bad because he was so nerfed compared to his Melee form. Turned out he's still one of the best!

I think Marth will still be upper middle to high tier. Middle tier at worst.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

I just wish he had his Melee-style shield breaker. I found the stabbing shield breaker from Brawl to be far less useful.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As a poke its pretty nasty,

 

[Shadestars]

Yeah I didn't think Marth was nearly as nerfed as people kept saying. If I recall much of the nerf-sprukers popped up after a leaker complained about the sword being shorter and that one tidbit stuck with a lot of people. Same guy who said the Fair lag was HUGE now. Now that the game is out, I think that guy was ill-informed, his range looks as fine as it ever was and I've noticed only a little lag on fair and hey, it autocancels anyway right?

Marth may very well be slightly nerfed anyway, buts that's what you do to characters who have been chilling in top tier for the past two games, tone 'em down a little. I still think Marth will end up above the average tier somewhere.

 

[kro_]

I like the new shield breaker. Makes his moveset a bit more varied, and it's been buffed since Brawl, right?

 

[KillLock]

I played him a bit today. From what I've experienced I will still be maining Marth for Smash 4.

 

[TL?]

I only partially agree with this. The main point here seems to be that even though he seems to be nerfed from brawl, this isn't brawl. He now exists in a different game with different mechanics, opponents, and metagame. I think that's a great thing to keep in mind. This is a metagame that is super new and we can't say much for sure yet. You make good points that even though he has suffered a few nerfs, a lot of the characters that gave him trouble seem to be nerfed as much or more. But at the same time we need to acknowledge there will be new threats to give him trouble. Characters like MK, Diddy, and Falco seem to have taken nerfs. But previously lower characters like mario, luigi, ness, sheik, jiggs, bowser, and more have all seen some great buffs. Who knows how good some of these new characters could be as well? The old problems may be gone, but surely new ones will come up. In the same way we can't write off marth yet, we can't be sure he will be particularly good.

Despite all of that and how early it is I'm still fairly optimistic for marth and lucina. I like what I'm seeing from some players already. I've seen a good adaptation of using full hop rising fair to still take advantage of the move without taking the landing lag. His biggest buff so far seems to be to shield breaker and I'd really like to see what people can do with that. He definitely still seems to have respectable KO power, which some other characters seem to be lacking.

 

[Emblem Lord]

After watching NAKAT (thnx for picking the FE duo when I came into the chat) and Keitaro, I was able to see both characters. The 3DS holds both these characters back so much. The controls are just bad for them.

With that out of the way, they are the same. NAKAT did whiff more moves as Marth but it wasnt due to range or speed, it was because I could tell he was trying to space moves and the inferior control scheme messed him up. With Lucina tipping was a non-issue so when he has his opponents off balance he more or less just focused on his traps and succeeded.

But in terms of speed and movement he used the same traps and when his spacing was on point his Marth was equal to his Lucina. Just seems spacing is such a pain with Marth on the 3ds.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I just wish he had his Melee-style shield breaker. I found the stabbing shield breaker from Brawl to be far less useful.

I wholly disagree. Mostly on an aesthetic level but also I'll take the extra shield damage over the arc any day. I have popped so many shields in brawl...

when he has his opponents off balance he more or less just focused on his traps and succeeded.

I would like to learn some of these. Any chance you could help me out or point me to something to get a better idea of mindgames with marth? I've gotten my spacing and fundamentals down I just need to know when to approach and when to not. Btw I like your Marth pic, I used to use that one.

I only partially agree with this. The main point here seems to be that even though he seems to be nerfed from brawl

Ah but he has only been nerfed in a few areas in brawl. People seem to forget all the buffs he's been getting for some reason. I have no doubt that Marth and Lucina will be high tier characters; the best thing about then is they are faster than a lot of other characters and they have really great weight/falling properties as well as aerial maneuverability. Ask any pro player and they'll tell you mobility is most important.

 

[Wraeith]

Thank you for your insight. You've also confirmed my suspicions about Marth's nerfs being highly over-exaggerated.

Spoiler

I posted these in a few previous threads comparing Marth's F-Smash range, and it looks very similar to previous iterations. Perhaps not identical, but close enough that a lot of the negativity and doom-saying is unwarranted. This is definitely not the best comparison as the perspective and quality is far from ideal, but it gives a good idea.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Basic frame/juggle/air trap with Marth. If you have your opponent above you and they have no jump you can short hop Uair then wait till it recovers and fall down then attack or SHFF Uair then attack. Mathematically I don't think either option matters in terms of the amount of time before you can react.

What that does is force the opponent to either try to escape by taking a risk, airdodge, or eat a hit and reset the situation. A risk would be challenging Marth with an attack or doing something ballsy like a counter. Challenging him will probably fail due to his speed and range, so expect something gutsy from smarter players like a reverse B special to change momentum or any type of counter move. If they airdodge, then hey you probably got a free tipper smash or Dancing Blade punish and you probably reset the situation. Airdodge has horrible landing recovery so take advantage of that.

This wont work every time but if you watch mikeneko he does this...like alot. There are many traps btw and if you play Marth and you don't use them, you will never reach a competent level.

Since MK's nerfs to Nado Marth's trapping ability has probably gone up in value though ZSS is still a bit better than him imo though no one can trap off normals as well as Marth imo.

 

[LordShade67]

Speaking of ZSS, how do you feel Marth will do against her, Boozer Bowser, and DHD? I know it's way too early to ask(Hell, it's too early to even consider them top 3), but I'm just curious.

 

[Clint Jaguar]

I wholly disagree. Mostly on an aesthetic level but also I'll take the extra shield damage over the arc any day. I have popped so many shields in brawl...

Personally I always found the move too slow to be actually used as a "shield breaker" even in Melee. I usually use it as an edge-guard. The overhead strike is a lot more effective in that regard.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Personally I always found the move too slow to be actually used as a "shield breaker" even in Melee. I usually use it as an edge-guard. The overhead strike is a lot more effective in that regard.

I won't argue the edgegaurding potential from melee. All I'm saying is that I prefer having the shield pressure. I never found the move too slow and it's range more than makes up for that. I like to play where I can force the opponent to react to me. Him missing 80% of his shield makes that easy. It's not always the best option for every situation, but it adds more utility than another edgegaurd (which marth can do very well at)

Speaking of ZSS, how do you feel Marth will do against her, Boozer Bowser, and DHD? I know it's way too early to ask(Hell, it's too early to even consider them top 3), but I'm just curious.

Actually Marth did pretty well against her in brawl. I remember getting in her sourspots and then lining up for a tipper; it was so easy. Might be different now but I have my hopes.

 

[LordShade67]

Actually Marth did pretty well against her in brawl. I remember getting in her sourspots and then lining up for a tipper; it was so easy. Might be different now but I have my hopes.

Brawl, I know. Matchup was pretty even there. I was talking specifically THIS game so far XD.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Speaking of ZSS, how do you feel Marth will do against her, Boozer Bowser, and DHD? I know it's way too early to ask(Hell, it's too early to even consider them top 3), but I'm just curious.

ZSS is probably going to be even or maybe slightly disadvantaged. It was a pretty even matchup in Brawl iirc and ZSS picked up some pretty neat tricks coming into Smash 4. Marth has some great new stuff too though.

I think he'll beat Bowser, and I'm not sure about DHD right now. He looks intimidating with all those projectiles and his excellent range, but I haven't kept up with DHD that much thus far. I could potentially see him folding under aggressive pressure, and Marth does have the mobility to go in on him.

 

[Freelance Spy]

ZSS is probably going to be even or maybe slightly disadvantaged. It was a pretty even matchup in Brawl iirc and ZSS picked up some pretty neat tricks coming into Smash 4. Marth has some great new stuff too though.

I think he'll beat Bowser, and I'm not sure about DHD right now. He looks intimidating with all those projectiles and his excellent range, but I haven't kept up with DHD that much thus far. I could potentially see him folding under aggressive pressure, and Marth does have the mobility to go in on him.

I think bowser has very little on a good Marth. DHD doesn't faze me at all as Snake was my favorite MU in brawl. If his can can hurt DHD then I think he'll be very similar to snake as far as shield pressure goes.

Brawl, I know. Matchup was pretty even there. I was talking specifically THIS game so far XD.

Nobody can tell for certain at the moment but I feel as if mathcups will remain very similar. DK may be Marth's greatest threat now that he is buffed in speed.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Storm Breaker is as good as I think it is, it will completely change Marths footsies, his trap game and his edge guarding game. He may very well be able to get consistent gimps at very low percents at virtually no risk to himself.

I think DK will end up his worst match. But even that will probably still hang around 4/6 which is really not that serious. I give the nod to ZSS, she gained stuff that she didnt even need. I'm really not scared of anyone else, including Bowser but we need to see how the metagame plays out.

 

[Shaya]

I think Bowser will turn sour for us. I think DK will probably be our hardest match up, at least by Brawl character standards.



Bowser is just as such, I believe he outranges and outspeeds us on the ground. Disjoints are great, but Bowser's drawbacks before attacks come out and animation retreats make it difficult (this gives the "illusion" of disjoint). Maybe not as the same rate as Donkey Kong, but trading hits is something Marth can never really afford to do against heavies, and Bowser seems like the character who'd be able to consistently achieve this. Sure Marth may be able to hit Bowser to 150% before he gets hit to 100%, but Marth will die before 100% and Bowser will not (see, I don't think Marth will get hit Bowser/DK to kill percent before they'll be able to hit him to kill percent).


Custom specials for Marth are so interesting, out of everyone else, I don't feel like custom specials alter game play for the character as much as M/L's do. I'm sure Miis/Palutena get stuff, but yeah, a dash or a super disjoint are things that change marth's capabilities DRASTICALLY. It's not like "oh better recovery" or "oh bigger X, but smaller hitbox, damage, start up, cool down, etc" but "OH HE LITERALLY HAS A NEW OPTION HE DIDNT HAVE BEFORE"

 

[Zinth]

Marth is definitely still good. I think the loss of short-hop double-fair -- along with the other things many characters have lost -- was probably necessary for the overall balance of the cast.

One of Marth's strengths in Melee that fell by the wayside in Brawl was edgeguarding. Now, edgeguarding is back and Marth seems quite good at it, once again.

Counter seems like a stronger option here than in any previous incarnation, so it may start to become a more significant part of Marth's game.

Custom moves are definitely very interesting. In particular, I see great promise in the forward-lunge neutral B.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

I think sheik will be a problem as long as she's on center stage. Similar problems seen in the melee Marth vs. Sheik matchup.

Falco should be easier if we play defensively. He's not gonna be spamming lasers so we're not forced to approach.

Overall, our offstage play should be fantastic if we can consistently tip. Thts where we're gonna shine.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I think sheik will be a problem as long as she's on center stage. Similar problems seen in the melee Marth vs. Sheik matchup.

Falco should be easier if we play defensively. He's not gonna be spamming lasers so we're not forced to approach.

Overall, our offstage play should be fantastic if we can consistently tip. Thts where we're gonna shine.

You really think Shiek wins this time around? Also Falco may have new tools for dealing with Marth (in fact I'm going to check his page, assuming s even put anything there. Some characters don't really have as much analysis as others I've seen. Some only list the aesthetics of moves as opposed to function. (Maybe just in the stickied posts?)

Marth is one of the worst characters offstage in brawl. Even low tiers beat him offstage, so I hope you are right about this. If the standard Shieldbreaker DOESN'T pop shields in one hit (like it should) then I'll probably switch to Fieldbreaker to cover more ground. If, after seeing more competitive play, Stormbreaker is a better gimp than (mario's fludd?) then I'll definitely consider that one as well. Fieldbreaker reminds me of glide tossing into a Shieldbreaker like Mr R did (and I have replicated.) covers a lot of ground and is relatively safe I'd assume.

EDIT: since I don't remember how to format to show a gif just check out this gnarly Marth play http://gfycat.com/MixedPrestigiousGypsymoth

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

You really think Shiek wins this time around? Also Falco may have new tools for dealing with Marth (in fact I'm going to check his page, assuming s even put anything there. Some characters don't really have as much analysis as others I've seen. Some only list the aesthetics of moves as opposed to function. (Maybe just in the stickied posts?)

Marth is one of the worst characters offstage in brawl. Even low tiers beat him offstage, so I hope you are right about this. If the standard Shieldbreaker DOESN'T pop shields in one hit (like it should) then I'll probably switch to Fieldbreaker to cover more ground. If, after seeing more competitive play, Stormbreaker is a better gimp than (mario's fludd?) then I'll definately consider that one as well. Fieldbreaker reminds me of glide tossing into a Shieldbreaker like Mr R did (and I have replicated.) covers a lot of ground and is relatively safe I'd assume.

I wouldn't doubt it if Shiek came out on top by a small margin. Really, it all comes down to how well we can keep her at bay and deal with needles. Needles are still fantastic and her ground mobility is really impressive. In this game, she is able to break through zones decently well. I wouldn't put it past a Shiek player to give even the most defensive and precise Marths a hard time.

Falco might. He can box incredibly well. If he can find a way to get up-close consistently, we should expect to take some decent damage. Still, he's lost some tools that made him a pain to deal with all around.

I think this game rewards offstage play. I think aerials are better offstage this time around because tipped aerials are really powerful. I think Marth swinging his sword in wider arcs with F-Air is going to pretty helpful offstage. As long as we know what we're doing and as long as we can keep ourselves from getting gimped, I honestly think a strong offstage game is key to netting kills with Marth. Especially since the blast zones in this game are rather large.

Now, this doesn't mean we don't focus on on-stage killers. A tipped F-Smash as a punish is very potent. I don't know how good DS is this time around, but that might be an option.