My take on Instant Pin

[Deleted member 189823]

I want to type this up, because I feel there is still a pretty big misconception about this move. It's surprising that a few people still don't know the properties of this move and actually happen to think it's what pretty much makes Corrin, and go as far as to say it's "broken".

Let's get the Cons out of the way:


- When we throw out the move, we actually extend our hurtbox.
You'd be surprised at the amount of times I've been punished for this. It's literally a part of your character.


- Pretty much anything beats it.
I've seen this move get beaten (and cancelled-out) by something as little as a Jab.




The move in itself is actually pretty insane, and it does indeed make an important part of our game, even if it isn't everything. This move is great, when you know how to use it:


- Makes for great quick punishes.
This move happens to be quick enough to punish a handful of attacks on shield. Namely, Smash attacks and a few tilts here and there. I even managed to get a few Jabs along the line.

8-frame move that lands a potential 18%? bruh.


- Catches rolls, landings & a handful of getup options.
It's pretty good at this too. Even when you don't actually pin your opponent, it's always satisfying to catch them, anyway.


- It further extends landing and even makes for an extra recovery option.
This is our extra wall-jump. And having platforms? You're in for a treat. Walls and/or platforms is the way to go.


General write-up:

All in all, this may just be another bit of information a lot of you may know. But there are also a few of us that don't comprehend this move. From personal experience, I can tell you it's nowhere as free as it seems. I mean, sure, you can Pin on an opponent's Shield, but you're only handing over stage control and a constant reset to neutral. Having had experienced Come to Papa during the weekend, I noticed that Ryo wasn't actually using this move all that much. He used it pretty much only when he needed to and focused on playing neutral a lot more through the good use of Jumps and spaced N-Airs.

It's an insane move, but like a lot of Corrin's moveset, it isn't free when you're fighting opponents that, literally, just Shield.

 

[PK Gaming]

It covers a ton of range, is super fast, and is generally safe, but it's not something i'd call "overpowered." Don't get me wrong, it's really, really, really good, but it's just not something I would classify as overpowered considering it simply doesn't swing games in her favor.

Opponents basically need to constantly respect it.

 

[Skitrel]

Some corrections:

It doesn't extend our hurtbox much, there was some testing done and images in the general gameplay thread. There ARE some "Why did that hit me?" moments that it causes, but in general testing has been unable to reproduce the rare extra extended hurtbox that people have experienced.

It is free against the entire cast except for SIX characters, this was thoroughly tested here. What is your definition of free? It's absolutely exceptional.

Some opinions:

It's ridiculous (in a good way, I love the move) because it's safe against almost everyone in the cast. Very few characters can punish it when you kick away, not to mention its incredible ability to punish ledge snaps and it's guaranteed kill vs any trumped opponent that doesn't go high (guaranteeing an uair anyway).

The shield damage it generates is crazy when you catch tippers at feet, always aim for the tip of their feet, not the pin.

Trying to "beat it" is a recipe for disaster by every opponent and isn't a viable tactic vs a move that starts up impossibly faster to react to, 8 frames is 100ms or thereabouts, the average reaction speed is 200ms. Nobody can react to it and beat it. Trying to hard read it would also be rather silly.

 

[Hero_2_All]

What makes this move so amazing imho, is it destroys those who do not respect it. Its so good at punishing because of it's range, speed, and dmg. It definitely forces your opponent to respect corrin's sphere of influence (they just flat out loose if they don't). Yet, the best part is when they do respect it they are always shielding which opens up to grabs galore (srsly it feels so great to see people shield every time while approaching out of fear of instant pin).

 

[Ingoro]

It allows even more safe poking when the Corrin knows how to properly space the move under platforms so that he/she gets lifted to above the platform.

OP: Unrelated but I'd recommend picking another letter colour, Red on black/gray is not very comfortables for the eyes.

 

[LordShade67]

I'm probably parroting, but Insta-Pin,as I call it, is both one of my favorite whiff punishing tools and my personal favorite Side B in the game(Though LCS is still better, but Cloud's braindead, so lol.). Since it's basically a better Tether Grab, at midrange, opponents are forced to respect it because if they so much as do something laggy, BAM! They're either getting hit by the tipper or they're getting pinned, the latter being usually a free 18-19% for Corrin.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Some corrections:

It doesn't extend our hurtbox much, there was some testing done and images in the general gameplay thread. There ARE some "Why did that hit me?" moments that it causes, but in general testing has been unable to reproduce the rare extra extended hurtbox that people have experienced.

"Some"? SOME??? Dude, are we even playing the same game? Get Smash attacked at the very tip and tell me it rarely happens. And this isn't that rare, either and not even solely limited to Smash attacks. I do plead guilty and not being the best at using the move (though I've been correcting this a considerable amount over the past few weeks), but that goes to say that the move itself isn't an Almighty Pitch Fork that you can just throw out and it'll be the 100%-Fool-Proof, which leads to my next point:

It is free against the entire cast except for SIX characters, this was thoroughly tested here. What is your definition of free? It's absolutely exceptional.

Well, you got me there. What I meant by that, is that it won't always hit your opponent if they know how to Shield (something a lot of people that don't know the Corrin matchup don't seem very aware of yet). If the opponent is Shield-happy (and I'm not talking about the kind that'll just sit in Shield and wait for you to condition them for Grabs), you're pretty much playing a sort of "Hit-n'-Run" Brawl Falco-like game where you're just hoping to land a move and reset back to neutral. When you retreat, you're simply giving them back that extra bit of space and maybe even stage control. In that situation, I find B-Air to be much more optimal as it allows you to preassure safely (even on Shield, ****) and keep them uncomfterble.


tl:dr version: If the opponent has a Shield button, Instant Pin isn't this badass broken move that will always do 18% (if any, assuming you're constantly retreating with it each time you don't Pin).

Some opinions:

It's ridiculous (in a good way, I love the move) because it's safe against almost everyone in the cast. Very few characters can punish it when you kick away, not to mention its incredible ability to punish ledge snaps and it's guaranteed kill vs any trumped opponent that doesn't go high (guaranteeing an uair anyway).

The shield damage it generates is crazy when you catch tippers at feet, always aim for the tip of their feet, not the pin.

Trying to "beat it" is a recipe for disaster by every opponent and isn't a viable tactic vs a move that starts up impossibly faster to react to, 8 frames is 100ms or thereabouts, the average reaction speed is 200ms. Nobody can react to it and beat it. Trying to hard read it would also be rather silly.

I agree with that, yeah. It's actually a really good move, despite what I said (I'm not hating, if that's what it looks like)
And by "beating it", I mean pretty much any active hitbox (like an aerial or a Jab) cancels it out, assuming you're just throwing it out of the blue. Maybe it's just my take on it? I think it's best used for quick punishes, catchling landings/airdodges and things like that.

Also, I really didn't know that about the extra Shield damage. Nice little tidbit, thanks.


Ingoro : I get it, sorry.

 

[Gemba Board]

Yo IP has been doing me solid ever since I started using it. I'm catching all the whiffs with this thing. It's so fast it's ridiculous. Btw what's the input window on the DL hop? It seems like you could IP at any point >0f or 1f of the hop. Is it literally instant?

Anyway, like previously mentioned, IP is great for catching opponents on landing. If they airdodge right before landing to avoid getting pinned, they get kicked for that from the landing lag. It's also great as a retreating option. If you dash back against an approaching opponent, reverse IP can punish all sorts of dash attacks and dash grabs. (Although, against lengthy active dash attacks, we must delay IP or we could clash or straight up lose a trade. Very important for the metaknight MU)

Also, IP after a blocked bair is an amazing frame trap. Just drop them wings down on someone's shield and the movement you get from bair should push you far enough to where things like shield grab can't hope to reach you but also close enough to where IP will pin or tip. Tired of getting shield grabbed? Bair to IP is your boy.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I love doing B-Air/IP combo when the opponent wants to approach me after the B-Air. It's like, they're forced to either stay on Shield or retreat. If they even think of approaching, they get pinned. :3

 

[Skitrel]

"Some"? SOME??? Dude, are we even playing the same game? Get Smash attacked at the very tip and tell me it rarely happens. And this isn't that rare, either and not even solely limited to Smash attacks. I do plead guilty and not being the best at using the move (though I've been correcting this a considerable amount over the past few weeks), but that goes to say that the move itself isn't an Almighty Pitch Fork that you can just throw out and it'll be the 100%-Fool-Proof, which leads to my next point:

I don't really see how you can get fsmashed often for throwing out an 8 frame move that you definitely can not react to when fsmashes are usually significantly slowly. Assuming people react in 13frames (typical) you're 5 frames ahead of them before they even input their fsmash. Assuming they have a 10-16 frame smash(fast for an fsmash) then you should have kicked away long before a reaction fsmash ever hits you. People must be reading that you're going to throw IP and punishing for it. Or somehow people are getting lucky with fsmash thrown in the neutral? That shouldn't matter at all at high level as it's just a generally silly thing for people to do.

Well, you got me there. What I meant by that, is that it won't always hit your opponent if they know how to Shield (something a lot of people that don't know the Corrin matchup don't seem very aware of yet). If the opponent is Shield-happy (and I'm not talking about the kind that'll just sit in Shield and wait for you to condition them for Grabs), you're pretty much playing a sort of "Hit-n'-Run" Brawl Falco-like game where you're just hoping to land a move and reset back to neutral. When you retreat, you're simply giving them back that extra bit of space and maybe even stage control. In that situation, I find B-Air to be much more optimal as it allows you to preassure safely (even on Shield, ****) and keep them uncomfterble.

Sure. I agree with you, bair is a little less safe though. Perfect shielding it is punishable whereas perfect shielding IP doesn't change much. You can react to bair to get the perfect shield too. Good move, but I see people relying on it a bit and taking run-through damage and high pressure for doing it.

Yo IP has been doing me solid ever since I started using it. I'm catching all the whiffs with this thing. It's so fast it's ridiculous. Btw what's the input window on the DL hop? It seems like you could IP at any point >0f or 1f of the hop. Is it literally instant?

The hop is 4frames, the pin is 4frames. Everything after the 4 frames of hop lag is actionable to initiate a pin, otherwise it takes 19frames before another action is available without doing the pin if I recall correctly, which is why missed inputs on IP are so dangerous and punishable. Frame count on the solo-hop lag might be wrong there though.

The DL on its own (without doing the hop) after a jump is 10frames.

 

[Gemba Board]

The hop is 4frames, the pin is 4frames. Everything after the 4 frames of hop lag is actionable to initiate a pin, otherwise it takes 19frames before another action is available without doing the pin if I recall correctly, which is why missed inputs on IP are so dangerous and punishable. Frame count on the solo-hop lag might be wrong there though.

The DL on its own (without doing the hop) after a jump is 10frames.

Hey thanks for that input!
Is it correct to say the fastest IP from standing position (BEFORE hop) is 8f since we account for the hop's 4 and DL's 4 as well? I'm looking at @KuroganeHammer 's frame data on the hop btw, it doesn't list anything except FAF. I'm interested in learning more about hop's mechanics like the 4f thing you mentioned. Stuff like an exact count of landing lag on empty hop. Has this stuff been discussed elsewhere?

 

[Planty]

Skitrel
You say that 6 characters can punish a back kick and you linked a page after this. For whatever reason, I can't access this page. Who are these 6 characters?

 

[LordShade67]

Skitrel
You say that 6 characters can punish a back kick and you linked a page after this. For whatever reason, I can't access this page. Who are these 6 characters?

Sheik Needles(Though that was Pre-Patch. Might not punish now.), MK Dash Attack, Fox Laser or Dash Attack, Falco Laser(course, it's still lol Falco.), Sanic Dash Grab/Attack, and Diddy's Super Glide Toss Banana.

 

[Skitrel]

Adding to that ^

I fixed the link in my earlier post to the thread where it was tested and logged.

 

[Skitrel]

Hey thanks for that input!
Is it correct to say the fastest IP from standing position (BEFORE hop) is 8f since we account for the hop's 4 and DL's 4 as well? I'm looking at @KuroganeHammer 's frame data on the hop btw, it doesn't list anything except FAF. I'm interested in learning more about hop's mechanics like the 4f thing you mentioned. Stuff like an exact count of landing lag on empty hop. Has this stuff been discussed elsewhere?

I recall one of the chat groups testing this off of smashboards while people were streaming and sharing lab sessions. That's where I think I recall the number coming from. To my knowledge it hasn't come up in a thread yet and I try very hard to keep on top of any and all information on the Corrin boards at least - though I certainly miss one or two things here and there. I skip the social thread entirely due to rampant spoilers for other games.

Double post? Oops. Sorry for the pings folks.

 

[Nah]

Since it's basically a better Tether Grab

It's not a grab though. Like at all. Grab would imply that it completely ignores shields, which it doesn't.

If Instant Pin was actually a command grab it'd be one of the most broken moves in the games' history.

though I certainly miss one or two things here and there. I skip the social thread entirely due to rampant spoilers for other games.

Don't worry I'm like 99.9% sure you're not missing any new Corrin metagame info by avoiding the social thread. It is, as the title implies, almost entirely FE Fates conversation.

 

[LordShade67]

It's not a grab though. Like at all. Grab would imply that it completely ignores shields, which it doesn't.

Well, I meant more in terms of how IP is sorta used like one. Because of its reach, it's a top tier whiff punish tool(8 frame move with reach rivaling that of a number of long reaching moves? count me in!) that, while is blockable, is usually safe on shield except against like a handful of characters.

But yes. If it WAS a command grab, it would indeed be broken and Wario would be out of a job.

 

[OceloT42]

Chiming in here.
So yeah, IP is fantastic for Corrin's game. I have a few questions about it however.
1) I've been getting this weird shenanigan where if IP too close to the ledge,I immediately cancel the pin, and the opponent is slammed on the floor, if pinned. What happened there?
2) Is there any useful option for Jump from IP? The lag in it is so long, I could calculate mu taxes.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

1) What you're going through is that weird "Pin Cancel" glitch in which the pin cancels because it counts it as if you're off-stage (I assume, since it's a part of you, it counts it as such). Used to happen to me a lot in FG that I would do use it as an extra walljump and it would cancel-out right under the ledge. Got me killed often, LOL. Never had it happen again. May or may not have been BF-exclusive.

2) It's a mixup. It's not that bad, actually. It's just there when retreating is the lesser option (and maybe a platform could help you land faster?)