[MU] Ganondorf

[Scraptor]

I came to find Link mains thoughts on the Ganondorf and I realized there was no thread about Ganondorf. As a Ganondorf main that struggled with this match up earlier I am getting better at this MU because I am better at dealing with projectiles in general and have a better sense of Links moves. I kept getting hit with the 2nd or 3rd swings in his moves so now that I am blocking more I am realizing there is a lot of opportunities to punish. I am wondering how the Links feel about this MU and if I am playing bad Links that are throwing a lot of laggy moves, this is mostly who Link is in Smash4 or a little of both.

 

[Elessar]

I came to find Link mains thoughts on the Ganondorf and I realized there was no thread about Ganondorf. As a Ganondorf main that struggled with this match up earlier I am getting better at this MU because I am better at dealing with projectiles in general and have a better sense of Links moves. I kept getting hit with the 2nd or 3rd swings in his moves so now that I am blocking more I am realizing there is a lot of opportunities to punish. I am wondering how the Links feel about this MU and if I am playing bad Links that are throwing a lot of laggy moves, this is mostly who Link is in Smash4 or a little of both.

Welcome fellow triforce bearer. Personally, ganondorf is not a complicated MU, though he is tricky. One mistake can be a stock due to his raw power, so the ideal is to only use safe moves. Personally, nair is Link's best friend in this MU since it stops everything ganondorf puts out. The way I approach this MU is forcing ganondorf to approach with his sideB or downB with my projectiles and then stop his approach with nair and tech chase. Bombs can also be soft thrown to stop ganon to approach by land and force a jump, which can be stopped with a well placed gale. This MU is all about keeping your distance from ganon and only moving in for a punish. I don't see this MU as a hard MU actually it might be one of the easiest MUs for Link IMHO.

So to answer your question (I think), yes, you're probably outplaying Links who don't know the MU. Ganon is a very dangerous opponent for sure, but not a particularly difficult one.

 

[Breadloaf]

This match up is in Link's favor because Ganon is such a fatass he doesnt have very good aproach options. He has dash atack, wizard's kick and Flame choke all of these are very linear horizontal aproach options that are very easily covered by z-air and bombs. If you try and approach at an angle boomerang covers that space and doesn't let you get in effectively. Your best bet as a ganonndorf is too pick a multiplatform stage where you can mix up angles and abuse u-air and not give link enough time to use his zoning capabilities efectively.

 

[_Magus_]

@ A2ZOMG @Vermanubis @Ray_Kalm @ Opana Any thoughts on this MU guys? XD

This match up is in Link's favor because Ganon is such a fatass he doesnt have very good aproach options. He has dash atack, wizard's kick and Flame choke all of these are very linear horizontal aproach options that are very easily covered by z-air and bombs. If you try and approach at an angle boomerang covers that space and doesn't let you get in effectively. Your best bet as a ganonndorf is too pick a multiplatform stage where you can mix up angles and abuse u-air and not give link enough time to use his zoning capabilities efectively.

Sorry for double post @ Elessar , but I had to address this lack of MU experience.

Link has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING that cannot be powershielded, as any decent Ganondorf would. Ganondorf is faster and less laggy than in Brawl, while Link lacks quick punishes. All he has is his wall, but again, Ganondorf is used to breaking down walls. Powershield and wizard's foot, which clanks with projectiles, are two great approach options that he has. The only concievable thing I could see giving us trouble is the jab cancel. Link is also a fast faller, and thus susceptible to most of our down throw and dash attack followups. Ganondorf also can gimp Link with every one of his aerials. while Link has lackluster gimping options, except for down air. Our offstage, air, and ground game are better.The only thing Link has is a sub-par wall. I say 55-45 Ganondorf.

 

[Dumbfire]

We do have a jab cancel starting at 5%, yes. I played this MU once all night, and found it surprisingly difficult. It involved a lot of tight spacing and baiting on my part. Offstage game is scary, especially due to the Uair tip. Jabs and Zairs were my friend. Ganon's grab range is very tiny, luckily, and the dash attack is easily punished.

 

[Elessar]

@ A2ZOMG @Vermanubis @Ray_Kalm @ Opana Any thoughts on this MU guys? XD


Sorry for double post @ Elessar , but I had to address this lack of MU experience.

Link has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING that cannot be powershielded, as any decent Ganondorf would. Ganondorf is faster and less laggy than in Brawl, while Link lacks quick punishes. All he has is his wall, but again, Ganondorf is used to breaking down walls. Powershield and wizard's foot, which clanks with projectiles, are two great approach options that he has. The only concievable thing I could see giving us trouble is the jab cancel. Link is also a fast faller, and thus susceptible to most of our down throw and dash attack followups. Ganondorf also can gimp Link with every one of his aerials. while Link has lackluster gimping options, except for down air. Our offstage, air, and ground game are better.The only thing Link has is a sub-par wall. I say 55-45 Ganondorf.

Actually that is only half true. Link can gimp with every aerial as well as his projectiles; heck, we can even gimp with zair. I grant that you can powershield every projectile but as I said, our nair not only stops but actually overrides every single approach you have. If you flame choke or wizard kick our nair will hit ganondorf and nothing will happen to us. Heck, nair even cancels dash attack. Ganondorf has serious issue approaching a good Link that knows the MU.

 

[Lawz.]

Sorry for double post @ Elessar , but I had to address this lack of MU experience.

Link has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING that cannot be powershielded, as any decent Ganondorf would. Ganondorf is faster and less laggy than in Brawl, while Link lacks quick punishes. All he has is his wall, but again, Ganondorf is used to breaking down walls. Powershield and wizard's foot, which clanks with projectiles, are two great approach options that he has. The only concievable thing I could see giving us trouble is the jab cancel. Link is also a fast faller, and thus susceptible to most of our down throw and dash attack followups. Ganondorf also can gimp Link with every one of his aerials. while Link has lackluster gimping options, except for down air. Our offstage, air, and ground game are better.The only thing Link has is a sub-par wall. I say 55-45 Ganondorf.

That's some really nice theory crafting. Too bad your wizards foot doesn't clank with bombs or zair at all, it just plain loses. And please, power shield a soft bomb so that it falls and lands at your feet. But also remember to powershield the zair or boomerang that can come afterward and keeps you standing on top of that ticking bomb. Maybe your 20 frame aerials can move you out of the way since Ganon is "faster". And by all means, shield zair, Ganon doesn't have a move fast enough to do anything OoS when zair is even half assedly spaced.

And let's not forget that Ganon still has an ass recovery and Links arrows, and even a boomerang in this case, will eat your horrid double jumps.

And Links Nair and bair autocancel much quicker than Ganons and are faster OoS options. And let's even mention the fact that Ganon is so damn easy to juggle that Link's jab cancel into utilt or grabs work so well because you have no aerial fast enough to throw out since it won't even be autocancelled once you touch the ground thus making you lolbaited.

Ganon might not be Brawl status, but that does not mean this matchup is any better for him than it was before.

Oh and I guess we could just jab cancel you to death now too.

 

[_Magus_]

Actually that is only half true. Link can gimp with every aerial as well as his projectiles; heck, we can even gimp with zair. I grant that you can powershield every projectile but as I said, our nair not only stops but actually overrides every single approach you have. If you flame choke or wizard kick our nair will hit ganondorf and nothing will happen to us. Heck, nair even cancels dash attack. Ganondorf has serious issue approaching a good Link that knows the MU.

Honestly, nair isn't that great. Once it connects, whether with a shield or with a hurtbox, the hitbox goes away. It's one of the most shield-grabbable moves in the game.

That's some really nice theory crafting. Too bad your wizards foot doesn't clank with bombs or zair at all, it just plain loses. And please, power shield a soft bomb so that it falls and lands at your feet. But also remember to powershield the zair or boomerang that can come afterward and keeps you standing on top of that ticking bomb. Maybe your 20 frame aerials can move you out of the way since Ganon is "faster". And by all means, shield zair, Ganon doesn't have a move fast enough to do anything OoS when zair is even half assedly spaced.

And let's not forget that Ganon still has an *** recovery and Links arrows, and even a boomerang in this case, will eat your horrid double jumps.

And Links Nair and bair autocancel much quicker than Ganons and are faster OoS options. And let's even mention the fact that Ganon is so damn easy to juggle that Link's jab cancel into utilt or grabs work so well because you have no aerial fast enough to throw out since it won't even be autocancelled once you touch the ground thus making you lolbaited.


Ganon might not be Brawl status, but that does not mean this matchup is any better for him than it was before.

Oh and I guess we could just jab cancel you to death now too.

Ahhhh, I was wondering when the trash talk from the other side would show up. XD ever played around with dorf's nair? No? It stays out a long time, and has greatly reduced landing lag since brawl.

Oh, and that boomerang? Terrible option vs. us. Any Ganondorf knows how to take advantage of the wind effect to bring him into close range even faster. I can't tell you how many Links I've surprised by starting a Warlock Punch and riding the boomerang to them. Deer in the headlights XD

 

[Lawz.]

Honestly, nair isn't that great. Once it connects, whether with a shield or with a hurtbox, the hitbox goes away. It's one of the most shield-grabbable moves in the game.


Ahhhh, I was wondering when the trash talk from the other side would show up. XD ever played around with dorf's nair? No? It stays out a long time, and has greatly reduced landing lag since brawl.

I am aware it autocancels, congrats, it still does nothing when you're eating projectiles. It also doesn't have enough range or priority to stop disjointed sword moves.

 

[_Magus_]

I am aware it autocancels, congrats, it still does nothing when you're eating projectiles. It also doesn't have enough range or priority to stop disjointed sword moves.

Eating projectiles? Powershield, anyone?

And what (reasonably fast) disjointed sword moves? The only thing I could see beating out Ganondorf is jab. The rest are super sluggish.

 

[Breadloaf]

Honestly, nair isn't that great. Once it connects, whether with a shield or with a hurtbox, the hitbox goes away. It's one of the most shield-grabbable moves in the game.


Ahhhh, I was wondering when the trash talk from the other side would show up. XD ever played around with dorf's nair? No? It stays out a long time, and has greatly reduced landing lag since brawl.

Oh, and that boomerang? Terrible option vs. us. Any Ganondorf knows how to take advantage of the wind effect to bring him into close range even faster. I can't tell you how many Links I've surprised by starting a Warlock Punch and riding the boomerang to them. Deer in the headlights XD

We know all about your nair and its four different hiboxes and it doesn't scare us, and warlock punch does not break shields so i dont know what youre gonna do when we just grab you either before or after you hit us with it.

Edit: Even if you ride the wind what are you gonna do Jab? We can either shoot an arrow at you or reset positioning or ftilt you, we have options.

 

[_Magus_]

We know all about your nair and its four different hiboxes and it doesn't scare us, and warlock punch does not break shields so i dont know what youre gonna do when we just grab you either before or after you hit us with it.

In reality, no Ganondorf would use a WP except for a super gutsy edgeguard (which you do see frequently). It was just an example. We can hop on that boomerang and ride it straight to you. Your wall even has a way for us to use it to get up close. That's pretty sad.

 

[Lawz.]

Eating projectiles? Powershield, anyone?

And what (reasonably fast) disjointed sword moves? The only thing I could see beating out Ganondorf is jab. The rest are super sluggish.

OoS jab is simple, has more range, is faster than your aerials and can juggle you via a simple jab cancel.

Ganon is overall a sluggish and slow moving behemoth. You can power shield but he isn't fast enough where sprinting forward and shielding is faster than Link chucking another projectile, zairing or pulling another bomb that can be dropped for space control.

 

[_Magus_]

OoS jab is simple, has more range, is faster than your aerials and can juggle you via a simple jab cancel.

Ganon is overall a sluggish and slow moving behemoth. You can power shield but he isn't fast enough where sprinting forward and shielding is faster than Link chucking another projectile, zairing or pulling another bomb that can be dropped for space control.

It sounds like you really love your character, but don't have very much experience vs. Ganondorf. I respect that, but I think you should try playing some of us more before you make those bold statements. If you have, forgive me.

Another thing you seem to not be aware of is Link's fall speed. He's very susceptible to our combos and uair juggles. When we get in, we don't just sit on our hands. We rack up 70% in five hits.

 

[Lawz.]

It sounds like you really love your character, but don't have very much experience vs. Ganondorf. I respect that, but I think you should try playing some of us more before you make those bold statements. If you have, forgive me.

I'd advise you to a play half decent Link that doesn't stand still and shoot arrows and let you run forward for power shield practice. This isn't in Ganons favor.

And you also seem to be unaware of Ganons fall speed as Link can juggle Ganon as well. The difference is Link has more range and the option to zone and create space.

If this were Falcon we were talking about, I'd understand the whole power shield argument. But were talking about Ganon.

This isn't by any means a heavily favored Link matchup, all in trying to say is you're delusional and this isn't in Ganons favor. I could give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's even but that's because "lol Ganon only needs 5 reads" which is hilariously true against pretty much anyone. But it's not because Ganon is going to masterfully weave around projectiles.

 

[Elessar]

Honestly, nair isn't that great. Once it connects, whether with a shield or with a hurtbox, the hitbox goes away. It's one of the most shield-grabbable moves in the game.

This is where you are wrong. Nair is amazing and it creates a wall that nothing you have can block. Trust me, I've tried it in matches vs Ganon's to which I lost to and nair beats every option ganon has. Now, I'm not saying that I will approach with nair because only bad Links do that, I'll stop your approach with it.

 

[THE 6r]

This is where you are wrong. Nair is amazing and it creates a wall that nothing you have can block. Trust me, I've tried it in matches vs Ganon's to which I lost to and nair beats every option ganon has. Now, I'm not saying that I will approach with nair because only bad Links do that, I'll stop your approach with it.

So? With Ganon you don't have to approach. We could just wait and let you approach with Link and counter any option as power shield works with anything, short hop uair for nair, roll for dash attack, and spot dodge for clawshot. I find those as the most effective ways to deal with link's somewhat limited approach.

 

[Dumbfire]

Why exactly would the character with three projectile approach the character with none?

 

[Elessar]

So? With Ganon you don't have to approach.

Actually you're wrong. As DF said, Link doesn't have to approach since we have 3 projectiles and one huge disjoint (zair). Ganondorf has to approach or else he'll eat soft thrown bombs (which don't explode when they hit a shield, they just fall on the floor at your feet and tick away as Lawz said), gales, and arrows. You can't powershield everything, some will connect and will build damage. You will have to approach, not us.

I'm really sorry to say this, but from reading your posts I get the idea that none of you has any MU experience versus a decent Link. Please play any of us, let's get this Mu going with actual MU experience, not just theorycrafting of what you think would work, but what you know would work at a competitive level.

 

[JmacAttack]

OoS jab is simple, has more range, is faster than your aerials and can juggle you via a simple jab cancel.

Ganon is overall a sluggish and slow moving behemoth. You can power shield but he isn't fast enough where sprinting forward and shielding is faster than Link chucking another projectile, zairing or pulling another bomb that can be dropped for space control.

Link can't move while pulling out a projectile, and Link isn't very fast to begin with, especially not in the air.

You overstate just how easy it is for Link to camp Ganondorf. Arrows leave Link vulnerable to an aerial approach if he charges them too close, and it doesn't really matter how laggy Ganon's aerials are in that situation, Link is going to get hit, and possibly killed. Ganon's aerials all kill onstage at kill percent. Bombs can be caught in midair or picked up off the ground with a Dash Attack, so Ganon doesn't have to stop approaching if you leave bombs in his path. Boomerang, as many have stated, is sometimes just as dangerous for Link as it is for Ganon. Link's projectiles also don't do very much damage, especially not bombs - Ganon's jab does more damage even at the sour spot - so Ganon evens it up or takes the lead with one hit, even if he had to get hit by several projectiles to get there.

Ganon doesn't fear hitting Link's shield, nor getting grabbed, because Link's throws are all awful. None of them kill until like 200% or more, and Link has no combos out of any of them. At best, they tack on a pittance worth of damage. Ganondorf's throws, meanwhile, do have combos, and often set up edgeguards, which is a very bad situation for Link. Link's up-B is very predictable, and is fodder for dair spikes with its transcendent priority. Link has a tether recovery, but tethers still leave you vulnerable until you reach the ledge. Ganondorf's edgeguard game is one of his primary strengths, and while Link is semi-protected during his up-B, his recovery is just as gimpable as Ganondorf's before Up-B becomes an option. Falling Fair to eat the double jump is sure death, and it hits from above at an angle, so Link has no answer to a properly spaced falling fair, and even on a trade, Link dies, while Ganon lives. Using bombs to reset the up-B only makes it easier for falling Fair to cleanly kill, as it does so offstage at only 70-80%.

Link's best attacks are exceptionally laggy. Disjointed, yes, but laggy enough that simply waiting out the hitboxes is a punish. His jab is disjointed and has good range, but punishable by just about anything on shield, even down-tilt. Using a full Fsmash as Link locks you in a full second of ending lag. That's punishable with a Warlock Punch on read - and trust me, I've done it. Link's Dash Attack is also extremely laggy.

Link's edgeguarding game on Ganondorf is weak because his aerials have long animations. The best option he has is falling nair, which has a lingering hitbox that is easy to guide, but it can be punished with a Ganon up-air, which has a disjointed hitbox. Bombs aren't good for edgeguarding because they send Ganon upward, giving him more time to recover, and doing very little if it eats the double jump.

Link's only real advantage in this matchup is his Zair. It autocancels no matter what, can be used for zoning, and has good range. Damage is once again very weak, though. Both characters kill each other with tilts at roughly the same percents, Link kills at slightly higher percents, but Ganondorf's Smash attacks kill much earlier than Link's, and are less laggy to boot - up-smash in particular is very difficult to punish. The only real advantage of Link's Smash attacks is that they threaten a larger area for a long time. Ganondorf's tilts actually outrange most of Link's attacks, so he can punish on shield or miss.

Link does have tools in this matchup, but Ganondorf's tools are more effective overall. 55:45 Ganondorf's favor.

Actually you're wrong. As DF said, Link doesn't have to approach since we have 3 projectiles and one huge disjoint (zair). Ganondorf has to approach or else he'll eat soft thrown bombs (which don't explode when they hit a shield, they just fall on the floor at your feet and tick away as Lawz said), gales, and arrows. You can't powershield everything, some will connect and will build damage. You will have to approach, not us.

I'm really sorry to say this, but from reading your posts I get the idea that none of you has any MU experience versus a decent Link. Please play any of us, let's get this Mu going with actual MU experience, not just theorycrafting of what you think would work, but what you know would work at a competitive level.

I'm down on 3DS. My FC is right there.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Honestly, nair isn't that great. Once it connects, whether with a shield or with a hurtbox, the hitbox goes away. It's one of the most shield-grabbable moves in the game.

Oh, and that boomerang? Terrible option vs. us. Any Ganondorf knows how to take advantage of the wind effect to bring him into close range even faster. I can't tell you how many Links I've surprised by starting a Warlock Punch and riding the boomerang to them. Deer in the headlights XD

For the record, our nair is fantastic, I don't know what you're talking about.
And also, if you're "using the wind to your advantage" you've never played a good Link in your life. The gale is there to bring enemies to Link. I find the rang quite useful in this MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I told myself I would have nothing to do with this foolishness.

I won't say anything else, but my NNID is publicly available. Any aspiring hero of time who has the courage to bring light to the top floor of my dark lair, I promise I will not show any mercy.

 

[_Magus_]

I told myself I would have nothing to do with this foolishness.

I won't say anything else, but my NNID is publicly available. Any aspiring hero of time who has the courage to bring light to the top floor of my dark lair, I promise I will not show any mercy.

You didn't need to help us, but I'm very glad you've come.

Heroes beware; this man possesses powers far beyond anything you or I are capable of.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pshaw, I don't think anyone here truly grasps the depths of my machinations. Everything is already happening according to plan. It's only a matter of time until everyone understands with despair that Hyrule belongs to the wielder of the Triforce of Power. By the way, not even that imaginary vigilante of the Shiekah can do anything about it. Your heroes shall be null and void in the face of darkness.

 

[Opana]

From my experiences, I'd put it at 55:45 us.

His projectiles aren't often too much a problem, although an intelligent Link imo uses his bombs strategically as sorts or traps by up throwing or just a speedy on-two punch projectile combo. Link's ftilt seems to be a pretty reliable killer or a tool to reliably get us offstage for edge guards. Arrows I have rarely not been able to airdodge, same with boomerang, and once in awhile a bomb near the ledge gets me(Although I have purposely used this bomb to recover from otherwise deadly situations.). Dair is more a ko move to me than a gimp, same with uair. Fair, bait, and nair though, they seem pretty effective at mid-high percentages for kos. Zair can be decent but only one Link has done this and imo it'd be better to try projectiles from a safe distance or a well spaced aerial.

Assuming we can powershield, as most should be able, then we just need to worry about closing in from mid-close range where grab or jab can get us. Dash attack rips through arrows at startup so that's not too big an issue, bombs are pretty easily bounced off shield(Although what happens next is a toss up.), Boomerang can be somewhat an issue when approaching with Aerials. However, fh air dodge into jair can remedy this while simultaneously starting up some effective strings here. When needing to get link offstage, sh double jump rising dodge allows us to land right when fair produces a hit box. Once Link is offstage, a good Ganon can capitalize on this situation and give him a hell of a time while racking damage with mostly some uairs, or finishing him off with literally any aerial that fits the situation. When we're being guarded, often we can throw out uairs and still recover, but worse comes to worse we can Ganoncide to maintain a lead or reset a worrisome situation.Link will be getting chip damage in, but once we get in we cause so much damage and potentially a positional advantage. Last thing, I will just say I love using the boomerang's wind boc to help me close the distance with a smash or any other standard attack(I chased someone with an uair into the air before even, was very awesome.).

I think a Ganon that utilizes everything to its fullest vs. a Link using everything to its fullest would have a slight advantage yet it could still potentially swing either way.

 

[Elessar]

Dair is more a ko move to me

Unless you're talking about the spike hitbox, you just showed that you don't know Link. Dair is no longer a KO move by any stretch of imagination; nair will kill you before dair does.

I repeat, from reading everything so far it seems that none of you (those who have spoken on the MU) has played vs a decent Link. You haven't mentioned nair as a wall which again for the 11th time stops every approach you have.

@ JmacAttack also said that tether leaves us vulnerable because it takes some time to get us to the stage. No it doesn't, it's immediate and we have no cooldown once we grab the Ledge which means that we can act right out of grabbing the ledge. You also said that throw won't kill you until 200%. Actually uthrow will kill you at 155% or so, and even still the purpose of our grab is not to combo out of it or kill but just get you off stage.

We really need to get some matches going.

Oh and btw, I don't play on the 3ds if I can help it. Sorry.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

As Elessar said, Ganon is all raw power. For Link, this can be scary since Ganons able to kill at very low percents near the ledge (I've gotten KO'd as early as 65% by an Fsmash).

But because Ganon's so slow he can be very easy to overwhelm and overcome. He's extremely easy to ledge camp and since his recovery isn't all that great, the best way to kill him is a nice Nair to the face offstage.

Ganon is just a straight powerhouse and nothing more. As long as you don't leave yourself open, it's a good match-up for Link. But one small mistake can turn the tides easily in Ganon's favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I repeat, from reading everything so far it seems that none of you (those who have spoken on the MU) has played vs a decent Link. You haven't mentioned nair as a wall which again for the 11th time stops every approach you have.

This is completely false. Ganon's N-air and DA beat this attack directly. Link has to respect these moves in midrange and is FORCED to block to not die in this matchup because of how much better Ganon is than Link in midrange. Link will not be walling Ganondorf specifically with N-air. It does cover good options, but it will lose to many of Ganon's attacks directly.

What's more accurate is Link can shieldgrab all of Ganon's attacks, but he loses this matchup because he has the worst grab reward in the game meaning his risk/reward is just very significantly out of his favor in this matchup. For all the times Link shieldgrabs Ganon, it doesn't make up for the times Ganondorf reads him for playing defensively, puts him offstage, and potentially juggles/edgeguards him to death. Link is actually forced to play on Ganon's terms once Ganon reaches D-tilt/DA range because he has no way to threaten Ganon at that range, while Ganondorf in contrast exerts a lot of pressure and gets massive reward for any successful read at this range.

 

[Zelkam]

Link can't move while pulling out a projectile, and Link isn't very fast to begin with, especially not in the air.

You overstate just how easy it is for Link to camp Ganondorf. Arrows leave Link vulnerable to an aerial approach if he charges them too close, and it doesn't really matter how laggy Ganon's aerials are in that situation, Link is going to get hit, and possibly killed. Ganon's aerials all kill onstage at kill percent. Bombs can be caught in midair or picked up off the ground with a Dash Attack, so Ganon doesn't have to stop approaching if you leave bombs in his path. Boomerang, as many have stated, is sometimes just as dangerous for Link as it is for Ganon. Link's projectiles also don't do very much damage, especially not bombs - Ganon's jab does more damage even at the sour spot - so Ganon evens it up or takes the lead with one hit, even if he had to get hit by several projectiles to get there.

Ganon doesn't fear hitting Link's shield, nor getting grabbed, because Link's throws are all awful. None of them kill until like 200% or more, and Link has no combos out of any of them. At best, they tack on a pittance worth of damage. Ganondorf's throws, meanwhile, do have combos, and often set up edgeguards, which is a very bad situation for Link. Link's up-B is very predictable, and is fodder for dair spikes with its transcendent priority. Link has a tether recovery, but tethers still leave you vulnerable until you reach the ledge. Ganondorf's edgeguard game is one of his primary strengths, and while Link is semi-protected during his up-B, his recovery is just as gimpable as Ganondorf's before Up-B becomes an option. Falling Fair to eat the double jump is sure death, and it hits from above at an angle, so Link has no answer to a properly spaced falling fair, and even on a trade, Link dies, while Ganon lives. Using bombs to reset the up-B only makes it easier for falling Fair to cleanly kill, as it does so offstage at only 70-80%.

Link's best attacks are exceptionally laggy. Disjointed, yes, but laggy enough that simply waiting out the hitboxes is a punish. His jab is disjointed and has good range, but punishable by just about anything on shield, even down-tilt. Using a full Fsmash as Link locks you in a full second of ending lag. That's punishable with a Warlock Punch on read - and trust me, I've done it. Link's Dash Attack is also extremely laggy.

Link's edgeguarding game on Ganondorf is weak because his aerials have long animations. The best option he has is falling nair, which has a lingering hitbox that is easy to guide, but it can be punished with a Ganon up-air, which has a disjointed hitbox. Bombs aren't good for edgeguarding because they send Ganon upward, giving him more time to recover, and doing very little if it eats the double jump.

Link's only real advantage in this matchup is his Zair. It autocancels no matter what, can be used for zoning, and has good range. Damage is once again very weak, though. Both characters kill each other with tilts at roughly the same percents, Link kills at slightly higher percents, but Ganondorf's Smash attacks kill much earlier than Link's, and are less laggy to boot - up-smash in particular is very difficult to punish. The only real advantage of Link's Smash attacks is that they threaten a larger area for a long time. Ganondorf's tilts actually outrange most of Link's attacks, so he can punish on shield or miss.

Link does have tools in this matchup, but Ganondorf's tools are more effective overall. 55:45 Ganondorf's favor.



I'm down on 3DS. My FC is right there.

I'm sorry, but this post is all sorts of wrong.

1. Link can move while pulling out a projectile. We actually have several ways of doing this. The most common way it to combine projectiles with short, full, and double jumps. We also have other mobility techs such as wave bounced bow and boomerang, bombslides, JCT, and F Bombs.

2. We might not be very fast, but we are faster than you both on the ground and in the air.

3. Good Link players rarely charge arrows and never at close quarters.

4. Link's bombs deal 5% for a direct hit and 8% for an indirect hit, and that's nothing to sneeze at. You should also note that Link's bombs are not effected by stale move negation so we can use them all day a still be putting out the same amount of damage.

5. True, Link's projectiles might be slow if you're looking at each one individually. However, when you look at them as a whole, they become something to be respected. Link is capable of having 4 projectiles out at one time which can be overwhelming, especially for a large and slow character like Ganon. You'll find that a skilled Link will know how to string projectiles together along with other moves such as Zair and jab, making them much more difficult to punish.

6. Our recovery is not the greatest, I'll give you that, but it's not as horrible as you make it out to be. Both our double jump and spin attack has received a height increase since brawl, and our tether is twice as long to boot. A skilled player that know how to save his double jump can become very unpredictable in his recovery path. Not to mention the fact that we have many ways to shut down gimp attempts. Bombs and the occasional boomerang can be useful for stopping gimpers before they even leave the stage. Fair and Uair are both disjointed and can definitely be used to out prioritized an enemies gimp attempt. Spin attack also has surprisingly high priority in the air and activating it a split second before you were expecting us to can get you caught in the blade.

7. We have ways of covering our laggy moves. Hit confirming laggy moves with a jab is excellent because we either get a guaranteed hit or a grab if you shield. Our throws might not be good for combos but they serve us well by knocking you back to our preferred range of dealing with you. And we know that dash attack is laggy, that why we only use it for hard reads and punishes.

8. We certainly have more edgeguarding abilities than Nair. Although Nair is a very good option, it's already been noted how it beats out practically everything and it knocks you farther away from the stage making it difficult to recover. You completely forgot to mention our Dair spike. Heck, even Dtilt spikes. Zair can be used to eat your double jump. Fair is disjointed and has good knockback making it useful for edgeguards. Bair can be used for stage spikes. Fully charged arrows can devastate recoveries and even if you avoid them, that can often times put you in a bad position.

9. Zair is great, so at least you got one thing right.


Honestly, it sounds to me like you've been playing an awful lot of scrub Link's on FG. And that's not all that surprising as there is a lot of them. A skilled Link knows his weaknesses and knows how to cover them. You won't find us charging arrows, throwing out laggy moves, spamming spin attack, recovering the same exact way every time, or any of that. Now don't get me wrong, Ganon is much better this time around and he's certainly a force to be reckoned with. However, I still think the matchup is 55:45 or 60:40 in Link's favor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yo like...I'm totally aware Link probably has by far one of the lowest winrates in For Glory.

But to be really serious, Link literally just loses a risk/reward battle in midrange against Ganon. Like seriously. What the hell does he even do once Ganon is in range to DA? He literally cannot do a single thing that Ganon can't react to. Meanwhile, it's very difficult to react to Ganon's D-tilt and DA in midrange, which FORCES many characters, especially someone like Link to block. While he can shieldgrab Ganon easily, his grab reward as I stated is extremely bad. Meanwhile, Ganondorf actually has one of the better grab games in this game (and he will get grabs if you're playing defensively, whether it's an empty jump bait or Flame Choke). And Ganon's significantly better positive state outweights Link's minor advantages in close and long range.

 

[Opana]

Unless you're talking about the spike hitbox, you just showed that you don't know Link. Dair is no longer a KO move by any stretch of imagination; nair will kill you before dair does.

I repeat, from reading everything so far it seems that none of you (those who have spoken on the MU) has played vs a decent Link. You haven't mentioned nair as a wall which again for the 11th time stops every approach you have.

@ JmacAttack also said that tether leaves us vulnerable because it takes some time to get us to the stage. No it doesn't, it's immediate and we have no cooldown once we grab the Ledge which means that we can act right out of grabbing the ledge. You also said that throw won't kill you until 200%. Actually uthrow will kill you at 155% or so, and even still the purpose of our grab is not to combo out of it or kill but just get you off stage.

We really need to get some matches going.

Oh and btw, I don't play on the 3ds if I can help it. Sorry.

Dair pops them up diagonally, and while towards the blast line it won't really be hindering recovery so much as killing at higher percents. Nair kills sooner at start up, but in all honesty I think you'll be hitting with the soft hit box more than anything. I listed nair with fair and bair as I assumed it was pretty straightforward.

I still stand by my post, I feel like people think camping=win vs. dorf but in all honesty that's not true.

As you much as you claim we don't know this MU,it seems the same for you guys. I agree that we need to setup some matches, my U may be free tomorrow but my ds is almost always free.

 

[Zelkam]

Dair pops them up diagonally, and while towards the blast line it won't really be hindering recovery so much as killing at higher percents. Nair kills sooner at start up, but in all honesty I think you'll be hitting with the soft hit box more than anything. I listed nair with fair and bair as I assumed it was pretty straightforward.

I still stand by my post, I feel like people think camping=win vs. dorf but in all honesty that's not true.

As you much as you claim we don't know this MU,it seems the same for you guys. I agree that we need to setup some matches, my U may be free tomorrow but my ds is almost always free.

Dude...Dair is a spike now. The very beginning of the attack (the part that use to have the most knockback before) now spikes. That's why Dair isn't nearly as useful a kill move anymore. It seems like you didn't know this, which means you don't know what we're capable of, which means you don't know the matchup very well.

Dair pops them up diagonally, and while towards the blast line it won't really be hindering recovery so much as killing at higher percents. Nair kills sooner at start up, but in all honesty I think you'll be hitting with the soft hit box more than anything. I listed nair with fair and bair as I assumed it was pretty straightforward.

I still stand by my post, I feel like people think camping=win vs. dorf but in all honesty that's not true.

As you much as you claim we don't know this MU,it seems the same for you guys. I agree that we need to setup some matches, my U may be free tomorrow but my ds is almost always free.

My U is rarely free as well, but I am always free for matches and MU exp. Also, I don't think that camping = win. heck, I'm probably the least campy Link out there. However, I do thinkt hat Link doesn't have to approach since we can camp, Ganondorf can't. The spam is merely to make you approach badly as per our terms so we can punish and combo.

And you could be right that we don't know the MU. I've played good players using ganon and have lost to them before, but that doesn't mean that they were good ganons necessarily.

Let's get these matches going!

 

[Opana]

Dude...Dair is a spike now. The very beginning of the attack (the part that use to have the most knockback before) now spikes. That's why Dair isn't nearly as useful a kill move anymore. It seems like you didn't know this, which means you don't know what we're capable of, which means you don't know the matchup very well.

I am aware of the spike but don't see it as a practical usage at high levels of play.

Also, interesting train of thought, to say the least.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Lol this thread is getting so heated. I guess it's only right. A lot of people have good points, so the only way to really settle this is through pitched combat. I'm pretty sure we all know that online battles aren't really a true test of skill, so I think we should take an analytical approach to it instead of just trying to beat each other and then saying " I won, my character wins the mu"

 

[Lozjam]

Geeze! Some of my brethren
Calm yourselves!
You do not conquer Hyrule by rushing into foolishness @ _Magus_
You must know your strengths and weaknesses!
I have faced a great deal of Links, while building up and training a dark Link to use for our evil deeds, and I believe I know this matchup really well!
This matchup is exactly 50-50 even, why? It all has to do with stage matchups where it will then go 45-55 on either side! Pick you battleground wisely, and you shall be rewarded!
For fighting on the matchup, I will write how to beat the other players and their respective strengths and weaknesses. I will write this tomorrow, and it should be useful for everyone.

 

[Elessar]

ttles aren't really a true test of skill, so I think we should take an analytical approach to it instead of just trying to beat each other and then saying " I won, my character wins the mu"

Yeah I'm pretty confident we all know this, but until some of us either face in tourneys, or see a high lvl tourney where Link and ganon face off (used by good players of course) online is all we have. Plus it's fun and we all just want to play at the end of the day.

@ Lozjam has a point I'm that stage choice could tip the MU, however I still don't see it as an even MU. Close maybe due to ganon saw KO power, but not even.

 

[Zane the pure]

If I were to throw my hat into the ring and estimate an average for the MU, I would agree with @ Lozjam on a stage dependent 50/50. Both sides of the argument here have made the mistake of assuming the opponent A. Doesn't know the matchup B. Hasn't played a good ____ C. Is delusional and or D. Is lying. Communication has broken down, and war is the only way to reinstate it.

I work from 6am to 12pm CST this morning, after which I will be at home inputting every Ganondorf's NNID available on this thread and will open a lobby to accept all challengers one at a time for pretty much the rest of the day. I will admit I'm not the best Link, but until we have some videos and real points of data to analyze this thread is pointless here-say.

See you this afternoon gentlemen, and no matter what happens: GGs and come out fighting or prepare to be Gannon_Banned.
No Items/Apex Stages/Any FD legal/2-stock 6min-time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwBuLj8dOc
(I'll VC with anyone that want's to discuss in between matches and deliberate on stage choice)

 

[Opana]

I may actually be able but unsure of when.

 

[Dumbfire]

Sadly the only footage we have that is moderately useful is this:

Ryo/vs Hi-Hatz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2y8R9GQqYY

Yet that was still early into the game; and Ryo doesn't actually play Link actively, I think.

I'll play Europeans but not today, 'cause I'm going to a smashfest.

 

[THE 6r]

Actually you're wrong. As DF said, Link doesn't have to approach since we have 3 projectiles and one huge disjoint (zair). Ganondorf has to approach or else he'll eat soft thrown bombs (which don't explode when they hit a shield, they just fall on the floor at your feet and tick away as Lawz said), gales, and arrows. You can't powershield everything, some will connect and will build damage. You will have to approach, not us.

I'm really sorry to say this, but from reading your posts I get the idea that none of you has any MU experience versus a decent Link. Please play any of us, let's get this Mu going with actual MU experience, not just theorycrafting of what you think would work, but what you know would work at a competitive level.

My 3DS FC is on my profile plus I used to main Link.

What I meant was with Ganon you shield and dodge the projectiles and force Link to approach.