[MU] Pac-Man

[Paper Maribro]

Hey guys, I'm but a lowly Pac Man seeking advice and trying to generate some discussion in these boards about one of the least played characters in the game.

I know a few Links and really struggle with the MU so I'm probably not of much use to discussion.

Discuss away!

 

[Dumbfire]

I won against one in tournament first time I ever played one because he SDed -- I breathed a great sigh of relief then. I found Ftilt or Fair worked very well for knocking away the hydrant. Pacman demolishes us close range however; and if he has stage control, through the hydrant and his projectile game, he destroys us -- or at least, me. Also, the Hylian shield blocks the hydrant, so I walked all the time.

 

[Sabaca]

Pacmans like to use hydrant when they are in the air. Simply try to uair them , they can't do anything about it and if they actually try to use hydrant they will hit themself because the uair instantly beats the hydrant.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Pacmans like to use hydrant when they are in the air. Simply try to uair them , they can't do anything about it and if they actually try to use hydrant they will hit themself because the uair instantly beats the hydrant.

Yes and no.
The hydrant is kind of invincible on the way down in the air. If you hit it with U-air in this situation you won't make the hydrant go back and hit pacman, but by hitting the hydrant with U-air it does make it so that the hydrant cannot hurt you either on the way down even if it passes right through you, so there is a very real sense in which we can challenge the hydrant with our U-air only we'd be aiming to hit pacman with our U-air - not hit his hydrant back up at him.
U-air does in fact defeat the hydrant in one go when it is e.g. sitting on a platform however, unless you try it more than once in a row, in which case the second U-air will be too stale.

 

[Dumbfire]

Know the waterspouting pattern, and be ready to jump over it to to hit the hydrant. A full-hopped fair will get you to it from very far away. As for his other projectiles, I am going to look up their specific properties, and Zelkam's data on bomb priority against them, as I have no idea.

 

[Sabaca]

I ceartainly hit pacman with his own hydrant as it was falling down. I need to get some footage of that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I ceartainly hit pacman with his own hydrant as it was falling down. I need to get some footage of that.

Fair enough then. Was it the explosive hydrant custom by any chance? That's the only one that isn't invincible, but I couldn't get U-air to knock that up, unless it's health also stales or something.

 

[Paper Maribro]

You can hit the hydrant back up if your move does 13%+ and hits the HURTbox of the hydrant. What FIOD was describing was the hitboxes clashing. Hydrant is not invincible like Villager's lloid is on release.

CQC is kinda hard against Link for us due to our pitiful range on most attacks and the fact all your moves kill us 10 times earlier than we can kill you.

I'm still kinda sketchy on this MU and I think I'm just generally playing it wrong but I don't like it at all.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You can hit the hydrant back up if your move does 13%+ and hits the HURTbox of the hydrant. What FIOD was describing was the hitboxes clashing. Hydrant is not invincible like Villager's lloid is on release.

CQC is kinda hard against Link for us due to our pitiful range on most attacks and the fact all your moves kill us 10 times earlier than we can kill you.

I'm still kinda sketchy on this MU and I think I'm just generally playing it wrong but I don't like it at all.

Interesting. So then where is the hurtbox of the hydrant and can an U-air hit it, and if so, from what angle? Because directly underneath doesn't seem to work.

 

[Paper Maribro]

The hurtbox is basically every part of the hydrant that isn't the bottom of it or the platform at the top, which I doubt acts as a platform on its way down. Basically hitting it slightly on the side should work. Just be careful to not aim straight for where the hitbox is and you should be fine. I know that Wario Up air and Ike Up Smash are good example of moves that always seem to knock hydrant away when hit by them while it's falling.

 

[Elessar]

For this MU it might be a good idea to watch this vid to get a good idea of how the match could go at the current meta. Granted, Legan doesn't actually play Link anymore so there are many ATs he doesn't use, but it could still give us an idea on hit priorities and other factors.

 

[Paper Maribro]

@Pacman9 @BSP @Firedemon0 @dragontamer you guys can take this one <3. I'll just sit here absorbing information.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I originally posted asking about the hylian shield defending against Pac Man's projeectiles, but have since found the answer I needed (It blocks everything apparently, even keys, though it doesn't block the spouts from the hydrant)
I feel like Link's better at establishing stage control between his numerous projectiles (however, carrying a bomb prevents his shield from defending him), so that's good.

Numerous Pac Men have abused their trampoline on the ground to force aerial approaches. Coupled with that and the hydrant pushing you into Pac Man's attacks and grab, and you have a bona fide nightmare.
Would you guys suggest just outcamping him? Assuming that keys can be blocked by Link's shield (and hydrants are easily shielded) I don't really see a way that Pac Man can pressure Link...

 

[DUKEL]

Actually the trampoline could be used in our favor. I'll have to experiment with it more (I'll be playing a rather developed Pac Man later), but moves like trampoline -> dthrow bomb -> footstool (etc), trampoline -> nair, trampoline -> zair could be possible. Once the trampoline gains strength, I see it even being used as an excellent approach to get over the hydrant and either fair or bair the punish.

I don't know I'll test these ideas out later.

Edit:
The Pac Man player that I played earlier doesn't tend to place his trampoline in the middle of the stage very often - he mainly used it as an edge guarding technique, combined with a bouncing hydrant. It makes getting back on the stage without taking damage difficult if not impossible if he times everything correctly.

In terms of the trampoline though, trampoline 2 has a decent height, and I found that nairing, fairing, or uairing (if he's above you) out of that jump is very safe. It's also a good moment to throw a boomerang or pull out a bomb. However, a good Pac Man player will attempt use the trampoline to their advantage and try to either punish us in the air, or when that doesn't work out punish our return to the ground with one of his projectiles because of our poor landing game. So mix-up your landings out of trampoline or you might find yourself trying to get back on the stage once again.

Also, apple kills us at around 130% I think, so watch out for that when you get in kill range.

It's very necessary to watch out for the hydrant. Don't use spin attack on the ground if you're near a ledge and a hydrant's spouting horizontally. If you get pushed off the stage in the middle of the attack it's an instant stock loss. Pac Man can also ride his water while grabbing, greatly extending the range of the grab and even making it a viable approach. That being said, you can use the water to your advantage too, so be on the lookout for an opportunity for a sliding smash attack. He'll also attempt to launch the hydrant at you, but you can play this game too! Half our matches were us fighting over using the hydrant as a projectile and I honestly think I got more kills with the hydrant than he did.

Pac Man's are also very difficult to stop once they get momentum. On one match I was up a stock + 90% (on a 3 stock match), but still ended up losing. Our inability to secure a stock, combined with Pac Man's superior camping game makes finalizing the win for us rather difficult.

However, myself and the Pac Man ended up winning about the same number of matches. Pac Man does have his weaknesses. Most of the time Pac Man will attempt to charge his fruit at the start of the match. Attempt to catch him off guard by shorthop arrowing, which will reset the fruit. If he whiffs a grab or smash attack, he's very punishable. Don't try to challenge him offstage, but rather use ftilt when he tries to recover and force him to attempt to get back on stage another way - probably using his side special. (hint - side special is very punishable OoS) Lylat is an excellent counter pick against Pac Man because his trampolines lose almost all of their affect with the jank tilting stage. You can walk right through them a good percentage of the time, and there appears to be more than a few glitches with lylat and his trampolines. I was even told of a time where he used a trampoline on lylat and it vanished while he was trying to recover, killing him. His key is also not very threatening on a tilting stage.

All in all, I think our matchup with Pac Man is either slightly in our advantage, or completely even.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: Old opinions most of which are obvious but I didn't feel like deleting

Hylian shield easily blocks everything that isn't the Apple or Bell (because of their wonky trajectories) so Pac-Man cannot hope to effectively outcamp Link and Link doesn't have to fear the Key so long as he isn't caught trying to land.

Save for Orange Sniping (due to it's semi-spiking hitbox) Pac-Man also cannot reliably challenge or chase Link offstage for a gimp.

Fresh F-tilt, D-Smash get rid of the hydrant without a thought, and are fine options so long as Pac-Man isn't standing incredibly close to interrupt (punishing the tilt or D-Smash would be difficult because of the moving hydrant at this point).

His trampoline recovery can be reliably traded with Dair offstage (in Link's favor) and it is also interruptible by ledge drop -> DJ Bair or other aerials if Link is hanging from the ledge as Pac-Man is attempting to come back.

Pac-Man is also left vulnerable right after he drops the Hydrant, so at any point near the ground so long as you avoid the Hydrant as it falls you can usually jump up and punish with an aerial or boomerang depending on your spacing.

If you're feeling mean and if the opportunity arises Link can also grab one of Pac-Man's fruits/key/ship things as it bounces around after hitting shield or something, which shuts down Pac-Man's fruit since he can't spawn more than one at a time.

A brief aside: Pac-Man's Nair is decently fast (although not at the speed of Ness's or Yoshi's) so beware of taking a stray Nair when attempting follow-ups if the Pac-Man player is trying to mash out.

The funnest part of this MU for me is killing Pac-Man with his own Hydrant.

So have some Hydrant trajectories to keep in mind for setups and traps (with my best guess for angles and distances from eyeballing them, but even if the angles/distances aren't completely accurate, they still give a decent general idea of the hydrant's trajectory IMO):

Spoiler: Angles and stuff.

NOTE: Horizontal Distance of FD refers to the length of the FD platform not the stage's entire horizontal space from left to right blast zone.

Angles are relative to the direction Link is facing when he hits the hydrant, so anything past 90 degrees means the hydrant will move in the direction behind Link.

Also, although it should be obvious the trajectories for the weaker moves only apply when the Hydrant is at the percent where the weak move will launch the hydrant.


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U-tilt: 95~ degree launch trajectory (roughly equivalent to the height of Link's FH), moving slightly backwards during the tumble.



F-tilt: 25~ degree launch trajectory, flying approximately 55% of the horizontal distance of FD before bouncing.



D-tilt: 85~ degree launch trajectory, flying high and forwards, good for cuttng off Pac-Man's jump and aerial options, bounces twice before disappearing and travels approximately 60% of the total horizontal distance of FD, 40% before landing and going into tumble.

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Jab 1: 95~ degree launch trajectory (Link's head in height), tumbling slightly backwards into Link's body.

Jab 2: 90 degree launch trajectory tumble, bouncing in place.

Jab 3: 25~ degree launch trajectory, flies approximately 60% across the horizontal distance of FD before landing, essentially the same trajectory as Swing 2 of D-Smash.

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EDIT 8/22/16: Some of the Dash Attack angles may have changed slightly since iirc Link's Dash Attack angles were adjusted in one of the patches that came after I originally wrote this up.

Dash Attack (Tipper): 45~ degree trajectory, flying 100% horizontal distance of FD, rises to approximately Link's FH height.



Dash Attack (Non-Tipper, Non-Hilt): 65~ degree trajectory, flying 100% horizontal distance of FD, rises to approximately Link's FH -> DJ height.



Dash Attack (Hilt): 85~ degree trajectory, flying >50%~ of FD's horizonta distance and rising to a height just above Link's FH -> DJ height.


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D-Smash (Swing 1 Hit; in front of Link): 50~ degree launch trajectory, tumbles forwards above Link's head and continues bouncing slowly forwards at around his torso height. Height of initial launch and following bounces depends on amount of charge for D-Smash and spacing (since a hit that connects at the Hilt will do more damage and knockback). Hydrant bounces 4 times and will travel approximately half the distance of FD regardless of charge (coming just short of center stage (when hit from the edge) uncharged and going just past center stage for high/full charge).



D-Smash (Swing 2 Hit; behind Link): 25~ degree launch trajectory, flies forwards about 90% of the horizontal distance of FD before bouncing and continuing forwards with a primarily horizontal tumble.

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U-Smash (Swing 1/2 Hit): 95~ degree launch trajectory, flies backwards slightly and just above Link's head before bouncing at around his body height while slowly continuing backwards, similar to trajectory of U-tilt.



U-Smash (Swing 3 Hit): 85~ degree launch trajectory, flies high and forwards about 60% the horizontal distance of FD, similar trajectory to D-tilt, bounces twice before disappearing, cuts off Pac-Man's jump and air options moving forwards but is slow to get rid of Hydrant such that Link will be pushed away before Swing 3 can connect unless Pac-Man is on top of the Hydrant such that the water will instead Pac-Man up.


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Arrows: 60~ degree launch trajectory, slight height and horizontal travel distance variation depending on charge of arrows, will travel about 90% of FD's horizontal distance if arrow is fully charged, will travel anywhere from 60-75% depending on arrow charge below a full charge. Bounces 4 times for all levels of charge.



Gale Boomerang: 80~ degree launch trajectory, a point-blank (7%) Boomerang will cause the Hydrant to fly high and approximately 50% of the horizontal distance of FD before landing, another good option for cutting off Pac-Man's aerial options. Hydrant significantly loses height at distances further than close range, 60~ launch trajectory, flying at just above Link's head in height and 25%~ the horizontal distance of FD before landing.




Bombs: 65~ degree launch trajectory, flying to a height just above Link's head before bouncing forwards at all ranges excluding point blank, will bounce forwards 4 times before disappearing when tumbling forwards. At point blank, a direct contact bomb (5%) will actually send the hydrant behind Link at roughly the same trajectory (EDIT 8/22/16: In hindsight I believe this is because the bomb will actually end up on the other side of the hydrant before it detonates if Link is standing right next to it, hence the backwards trajectory). Trajectory and travel distance are the same for splash damage bombs (8-9%), without the point-blank anomaly (of sending the hydrant backwards).

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An important note about launching the hydrant with the bomb's splash damage (8-9%):

When the Hydrant is launched by the splash damage hitbox, Link's "bomb ownership" (read: bombs will not damage Link if they explode in direct contact (5% hitbox) with an enemy or other object that isn't the ground when he is in the blast radius) does not apply, in other words Link can be hit by the hydrant if he launches it in this way. This contrasts from launching it with direct contact, in which case the Hydrant will not harm Link because the game recognizes that it was one of his attacks that launched it, a splash damage launch seems to register as an "unowned" hitbox and thus allows the Hydrant to hit either Link or Pac-Man as it tumbles.

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Spin Attack: 60~ degree launch trajectory, flying anywhere from 70-100% of FD's horizontal distance before landing depending on charge, will reach a height that is just above Link's FH jump height.



Nair: 30~ degree launch trajectory, flying 40-50%~ of the horizontal distance of FD depending on early or late contact (hard to get early contact before landing though), will bounce 2-4 times.

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Fair (Hit 1): 30~ degree launch trajectory, flying 40%~ of the horizontal distance of FD before tumbling, bounces 4 times before disappearing.

Fair (Hit 2): 30~ degree launch trajectory, flying 50%~ of the horizontal distance of FD before tumbling, bounces 4 times before disappearing.

EDIT 8/22/16: The distance traveled by the Fair hits may be further at this point since Link's Fair has been buffed since the time that I first wrote all of this up.


----------------------------



Uair: 90~ degree launch trajectory, bouncing in place with potentially very slight movement forwards, impossible to hit ground Hydrant with Uair unless coming from beneath by the ledge.


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Dair (Meteor Hitbox): 270 degree launch trajectory (read: straight down), bouncing in place 4 times before disappearing.

EDIT 8/22/16: The original remark above was written before the angle change to the first few meteor frames of Link's Dair when it hit grounded opponents, I assume this angle change also applies to the hydrant so I will leave the original remark struck through until I or someone else can check the new angle and update the data.

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Dair (18% hitbox (just after Meteor hitbox): 50~ degree launch trajectory, flying at just above Link's height and 25%~ of FD's horizontal distance before tumbling.



Dair (15% hitbox): Same as 18% hitbox, travels slightly less horizontally than 18% hitbox.


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Bair (Hit 1): 50~ degree launch trajectory, flies low to just about Link's height before tumbling across the stage, bouncing 4 times before disappearing, flies <15% of FD's horizontal distance before tumbling.


Bair (Hit 2): 25~ degree launch trajectory, flies 75%~ of the horizontal distance of FD before bouncing, flies surprisingly fast as well.

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F-Smash (Hit 1; Non-tipper): 50~ degree launch trajectory, coming to Link's height and moving slightly forwards before tumbling, has some horizontal movement variation depending on Link's spacing for the swing when non-tippered, may tumble very short, may fly a bit further, etc.



F-Smash (Hit 1: Tipper): 40~ degree launch trajectory, flying low to about Link's height before tumbling, flies approximately 50% of FD's horizontal distance before tumbling.



F-Smash (Hit 2): 60~ degree launch trajectory, flying 100% of the horizontal distance of FD and reaching just about Link's DJ height at a maximum.