Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 4 | Zero Suit Samus (Rediscussed)

[Katakiri]

Welcome to our Zero Suit Samus match-up discussion!

"Try me."

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Zamus vs Bats here.​

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

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1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

ZSS Matchup Re-Discussion

40:60 ​

Summary:

• MK's hardest matchup because it forces a change of playstyle in order to not get bodied
• She takes away MK's strengths by being very difficult to juggle and edgeguard
• Possesses a similarly devastating punish game while having good SH spacing options in neutral to help avoid our ground moves
• Prioritise maintaining a lead. Bait from the air and from platforms to avoid her grab and poke her, try to punish any commitment

Playstyle:

In most matchups MK likes to stay grounded, using his mobility and threatening mid-range to bait the enemy and to get in for a dash attack/grab punish. Against a good, defensive ZSS, this playstyle may well get MK destroyed. Trying to bait out a grab is obviously #thedream, it's so laggy that if it whiffs she is going to eat a big combo no matter what (her fall speed is good for our combos). Pay attention to the moments they want to grab and try to bait them into doing so. However a patient ZSS will usually only go for grabs if they're confident in a read or it is preceded by a setup move, eg. Paralyzer or Dsmash. Getting grabbed is very scary for MK because he is light and has a good fall speed for ZSS's combos. In order to avoid grabs we can use our good spotdodge and rolls, as well as FH or immediate double jump.

There are two ways to play out this matchup.

1) We can stay grounded in mid range and be very patient, attempting to bait out a commitment like a grab and punish her for it. Powershielding Paralyzer is good and can lead to baiting out a grab or, if you're fast enough you can simply dash attack/grab its endlag. This playstyle works pretty well against aggressive ZSS players (and aggressive players in general), but against defensive, baity, patient players, it is quite risky. Hitting shield is scary because ZSS has awesome OOS options in Up-B and Utilt, both of which kill. If we whiff anything with medium-to-high endlag eg. Tornado, Usmash, etc. we're going to eat a lot of %.

2) Stay airborne and on platforms as much as possible and poke and bait from there. This means ZSS can't grab you which is the main threat. Maintaining a lead is the primary focus so that she has to attack you, not the other way around. With good reaction time, we can punish her for poking at our shield with aerials if we're on a platform. And if we know she's going to commit to a move like USmash or even if she commits to a jump, we can fast-fall and punish that on read. Go hard on the punish and then go back to platform- and air-camping once she regains her footing. Uairs are fairly threatening but can be played around. Here is a video of Katakiri playing in this manner (on Wifi).​

Get up options: avoid going for a normal getup or get up attack since she will often go for down smash the very first time you snap the ledge. We have one of the best get up rolls in the game, use it to avoid being down smashed on the edge which equals death (by Flip Kick), but make sure you mix it up with ledge drop double jump or ledge jump. Occasionally go for neutral get up but avoid doing it too often because it is so dangerous.

Juggling and edgeguarding: this is very difficult because of her extreme mobility. For example, with regards to juggling, she can flip jump out as soon as our combo ends and reset back to neutral. The only recovery which is remotely edgeguardable is Zair snap to the ledge, but it's difficult and if ZSS jumps straight away there's little you can do to punish. Flip Jump recovering high can be susceptible to Bair but be very careful.

Other points:

• Recover low almost always to avoid down-B
• Make use of DCape to get out of disadvantage situations but make sure to mix it up
• (rare) If ZSS hits our shield with down-B it is punishable with Usmash, also with Up-B but this is more risky.

This video describes how to DI out of Boost Kick; a good watch. Essentially, say ZSS is facing right, smash DI to the left by holding the stick to the left and waggling it to the up-left and down-left positions (each time it goes between directions it counts as a SDI input). Make sure you DI the final hit down and away to survive as long as possible.

DA > Uairs > Up-B kill %s:

20-39%, all 1st hitbox of dash attack

• 20-23% 4 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 24-28% 4 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 28-32% 4 uairs to SL
• 29-31% 2 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 32-33% 4 uairs to SL
• 34-36% 3 uairs to SL
• 37-39% 3 uairs to SL (extra jump before SL on FD)

Stages:

BAN: Delfino, FD/Ω
PICK: Smashville, Battlefield
C/PICK: Halberd, T&C

Frame Data to expand your mind!:​

|Hit Frames|Hit Frames
Jab | 6, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 | 1, 12-13, 23-24
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 7-9, 10-19
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 6-8
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 | 3-4, 9-10
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 8-9
Side Smash | 24 | 14-16, 27-29
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 10-11, 22-?, 28-29
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 20-24
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 10-11
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 6-7, 16-17
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 8-9
U-Air | 6 | 6-12
D-Air | 4 | 14-49, 1-2 (landing)
Grab | 7-8 | 16-29
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 16-29
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 17-29

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

As a ZSS main, I think I can help give some pros and cons of this matchup (because I want a challenge and MK is seriously underrated):

• MK's Tornado (neutralB) and Drill (sideB) can cancel ZSS's Paralyzer (neutralB), but not her Whip (sideB)
• Meta Knight's small size and light weight make it harder for ZSS to properly combo him. It also makes it easier for MK to DI out of her Boost Kick (upB)
• Meta Knight has amazing recovery, both horizontally and vertically, making it easier for him to survive. On ther other hand, ZSS also has amazing an horizontal recovery, but her vertical recovery is average and situational (the lack of walls, for example, can really hurt her recovery). However, Meta Knight doesn't have a meteor nor a spike, making it difficult to KO her, unless you risk it and try the Loop de Loop (upB)
• For most of his attacks, Meta Knight has a speed advantage, but ZSS also has a range advantage so if a ZSS main can predict what an MK player will do, ZSS's attack will most liekly hit first if the timing's right.
• EDIT: MK also has great air combo potnetial, while his ground game consists of bringing his opponent in the air (minus a few KO moves). Come to think about it, ZSS plays in a very similar way.

That's all I can say for now, because I'm not the kind of person who fully analyses his matches (I know, a really bad habit, but I'm working on it!)

 

[David Viran]

I haven't really faced any mks but I'm starting to hear about them finally. ZSS definitely has the range advantage but meta Knight has the attack start up advantage aside from a few moves. Mk seems like a ground based character and zss loves being in the air. His dimensional Cape is supposed to be a very very good move for getting out of bad situations but I wonder if zss's down b can catch it. Sorry I don't have more. Meta Knight mains are scarse.

 

[warionumbah2]

I've played a few ZSS but one of my training partner mains her.

Things that are advantageous for her in this specific MU

• Better mobility all around
• Stun gun, plasma whip and down smash can hinder MK approach options on the ground
• Up smash stops MK from zoning her out with dair and prevents MK from safely landing ontop of you with mach tornado
• Better range
• Frame 1 jab
• Her nair outright beats his aerials so he's forced to stay grounded

Things MK has that can give her trouble

• 6 jumps and a very fast fall speed, allowing him to avoid her stun gun and quickly come back down to punish any over commitment on your end
• Safe dash attack along with good ground speed himself
• Up smash being a reliable punish if she flip jumps onto our shield
• Small hurtbox making it harder to land sh nairs or uairs
• An uair that's faster than all her aerials making it hard to escape juggles at low percents

What's weird is how much they have in common

• Vertical combos and kill moves
• Safe smash attacks
• Very strong disadvantage states both of our down b's are like free tickets out of danger
• Kill setups
• Up b OOS
• Lightweights

Because of this all matches against ZZS tend to be neutral, MK will have a hard time approaching tbh I think its almost impossible to approach safely. However MK doesn't have to approach since he has 6 jumps to abuse, ZSS is very committed with her moves for example her grab MK thrives off over commitment. If ZSS is charging her stun gun for too long MK can safely punish with DC, from what I can gather from my replays ZSS has a hard time juggling MK due to his weight however at certain percents MK can lock ZSS in uair strings which can dish out on average 40% if we end it with shuttle loop.

I say the ground game is pretty even but the air is in ZSS favor due to her better mobility and range, off stage is weird since no ZSS player has ever used her tether to recover since I can fall of and nair them. MK cannot stall off stage with his jumps because once ZSS uses her down b for a spike he has no way of avoiding it unless the player gets a clutch air dodge, the spike kills ridiculously early.

Dash attack to shuttle loop with MK and ZSS at 70-80% can kill reliably, MK is light too but apparently its hard to land her up b on such a small and light character. Despite this I can't ignore her absurd kill move, especially when you land a down smash.

Im not sure on the ratio I think its 50:50 but we need the MU in ZSS main point of view to come to a solid conclusion, maybe @ Shaya can help out.

This is one MU where im not 100% sure of the ratio since I only play my training partner on rare occasions.

 

[Shaya]

mk vs zss imo is a real 60:40+ for zss, but smash match up standards (which are terrible) will argue 50:50 (*sigh*).

In short, nothing of MK's is safe. His extreme lightweight with all of our easy hit-confirms at every point of the match up make things very unfair for the bat. 20-30% confirms, killing well below 100% and his aerial mobility + fall speed make for easy traps. Our jump height + uair don't care enough about 6 jumps.

Note: https://twitter.com/ShayaJP/status/570390149063778306
I also am not the type to underrate MK.

 

[AyeYoDeji]

Can someone fill me in on exactly how to DI out of zss upB?

 

[ItoI6]

zero suit is one of those characters that fishes a little too hard as mk tries to make it back on stage from the ledge as she uses spaced dsmash or neutral b because its usually pretty safe and unchallengable. If mk reads it right and down bs in those moves start up lag though you can get a dimensional cape kill really early, especially if she's still charging. i normally dont use cape at all vs most characters but its actually good sometimes vs zerosuit because it helps a bit when landing + if you read a neutral b start up you can get a strong punish on stage. dtilt will always causes knock down on zero suit at 99%+ and a followup grounded shuttle loop will kill always afterwards even with max di and thats with no rage. also at super low %s whenever i dtilt zero suit they usually spam her fast jab so i usually buffer a roll behind them and get a free grab after. in general thats just a good mixup vs everyone who mashes out of things with fast bull**** jabs like mac and mario as well. dair camping is really bad vs zero suit but idk just play regularly otherwise and fish for down b after analyzing her neutral b habits on stage.

i think zero suit wins because shes just a better character but its really not that bad because shes just at that perfect weight/fallspeed ratio where she dies super early to mks stuff and still eats 20+% combos regularly AND doesnt fall so fast that mk gets punished on hit like against sheik and fox at low%s.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Glad to see a good player agrees with my thoughts that Down B is actually a viable and good option against other competent ZSS players. Charging them D-Smashes on the edge and lasers both on and off the stage are extremely common pressure options from ZSS, and a properly positioned Down B is what it takes to rattle their sense of security or take a free stock.

Very interesting note about your d-tilt to buffered roll grab. And d-tilt always causes knock down on ZSS at 99+%... what??? Does d-tilt trip become guaranteed at certain percentages against certain weights or something? I still don't get how it works.

I actually kind of find her hard to do 20%+ against, but I am pretty bad at u-air strings and play almost wi-fi exclusively... She is definitely easy to kill, but she could very well kill you fast at ~80%... or your punishment is more severe and she gets you to like 160% because she hasn't landed Up-B or any of her smashes that isn't Up-Smash yet lol.

Common approaches from ZSS seems to be:
Charge laser -> you jump -> she short hop aerials towards you.
Charge laser -> you shield -> she goes for the grab, or she dash attacks through the shield.
Charge laser -> you roll back -> she runs and goes for the grab or she dash attacks, even if you shield this she will go through you (just like our dash attack against shields, except hers goes even farther; it's also just as lagless I think)

Hm, it's honestly not too tough a mixup to get around lol, but I just can't remember what I do against it even though I don't get demolished by them lol. I guess you just utilize Metaknight's 6 jumps and dance around to avoid her aerial after jumping the laser. If she charges a horrible laser, punish with the D-Cape for sureeee. If you make her too scared to use laser, that's half the battle won lol. She has quite a good dash attack, but damn her grab is very punishable if she whiffs it big time. It does linger and has the length of Ron Jeremy to catch through rolls and spotdodges so it's not completely horrible like 64 Samus or Link's grabs though, be careful. If you can goad her to go for punishable grabs, that's another victory there. Free dash grabs or D-capes for you.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dtilt pops your opponent off the ground after 100% setting up kill moves like shuttle loop and down b.

The MU isn't in our favour, as itol said she's a better character having better mobility, sh aerials with no lag, range and a projectile.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Ohhh pop off, not trip. Hm, that is way more handy. I remember seeing Itoi dtilt into upb punish for the enemy missing the tech (which is possible without tap jump, I bind the X to B as well so I just fat thumb it from Y -> X immediately).

 

[David Viran]

Glad to see a good player agrees with my thoughts that Down B is actually a viable and good option against other competent ZSS players. Charging them D-Smashes on the edge and lasers both on and off the stage are extremely common pressure options from ZSS, and a properly positioned Down B is what it takes to rattle their sense of security or take a free stock.

Very interesting note about your d-tilt to buffered roll grab. And d-tilt always causes knock down on ZSS at 99+%... what??? Does d-tilt trip become guaranteed at certain percentages against certain weights or something? I still don't get how it works.

I actually kind of find her hard to do 20%+ against, but I am pretty bad at u-air strings and play almost wi-fi exclusively... She is definitely easy to kill, but she could very well kill you fast at ~80%... or your punishment is more severe and she gets you to like 160% because she hasn't landed Up-B or any of her smashes that isn't Up-Smash yet lol.

Common approaches from ZSS seems to be:
Charge laser -> you jump -> she short hop aerials towards you.
Charge laser -> you shield -> she goes for the grab, or she dash attacks through the shield.
Charge laser -> you roll back -> she runs and goes for the grab or she dash attacks, even if you shield this she will go through you (just like our dash attack against shields, except hers goes even farther; it's also just as lagless I think)

Hm, it's honestly not too tough a mixup to get around lol, but I just can't remember what I do against it even though I don't get demolished by them lol. I guess you just utilize Metaknight's 6 jumps and dance around to avoid her aerial after jumping the laser. If she charges a horrible laser, punish with the D-Cape for sureeee. If you make her too scared to use laser, that's half the battle won lol. She has quite a good dash attack, but damn her grab is very punishable if she whiffs it big time. It does linger and has the length of Ron Jeremy to catch through rolls and spotdodges so it's not completely horrible like 64 Samus or Link's grabs though, be careful. If you can goad her to go for punishable grabs, that's another victory there. Free dash grabs or D-capes for you.

I don't think mk wants to be in the air because zss's aerials out range his and she can frame trap him. Paralyzer is not her approach game SH aerials are her approach game mostly imo. Paralyzer is used to used to figure out reactions though. I think mk has to approach anyway. You could limit the use of paralyzer though with down special but the zss can stop using grounded paralyzer and start wave bouncing it or not. The down special to punish dsmash at the ledge is interesting but can it be baited?

 

[AmishTechnology]

I won't disagree there. She has dat reach and dat speed in the air. I sort of forgot about the existence of wavebouncing and whatnot, is it the norm to set C-Stick to Specials for ZSS? Seems like it offers too many options to not be used if it works with her zapper and whippy whip.

 

[pichuthedk]

Are the frames right ? because the current build we ( i ) have is showing them off by like a frame man i might have been memorizing useless data xD.

anyways Mk seems to be one of the shorty's in the game that doesn't bend physics like kirby and jiggly where they are flat on the ground like pancakes and I have found less difficulty hitting him with some moves that I normally miss on the others when not timed/spaced properly.

Nado seems like less of a threat now since brawl which I am sure you guys know that, the combos you get that lead into shuttle loop are kinda annoying but again not as devastating as the brawl counterpart.

Mk's tilts still annoying AF

 

[Katakiri]

ZSS is one of the MU's I've been working on more recently as my Tuesday local tourney "paycheck" is always guarded by a solid ZSS and a smart Fox. It's slowly becoming one of my favorite MUs as well. Not that it's easy, mind you, it can just be very intense and those are the MUs I like.

This is less of a comparison post and more just sharing what I found that really helps MK in this MU, mostly in the neutral at that.

Against ZSS, if I don't have momentum, I empty hop to fast fall and hover a lot at about mid-range and what that does is pretty much negate her ability to grab or use her stun gun safely while I can quickly land and throw out a dash attack at almost any point or shield even. Dash Attack is how I break apart ZSS' defenses most of the time. However, ZSS can combat this with Z-Air so if you see ZSS jump, fast fall immediately into shield if you're airborne. MK doesn't get hit by Z-Air easily if he's grounded anyway since he's short. But still, getting hit by a Z-Air into nothing is better than getting grabbed and thrown into a combo, plus you got ZSS out of her defensive stance and into the air by forcing the Z-Air so read that next time and approach for a combo. If you can get momentum against ZSS, it's not hard to keep it. The problem in this MU is that ZSS can set up a wall of safe moves, all grounded, and keep you out. If you prevent her from setting that wall up again by just having momentum and smart movement, you'll be in a winning position. Also Dash Attack, can't stress that enough. Beats her Jab, clanks with Paralyzer, and nets you easy combos for 20-30+%. Use it!

Always respect her options but if she tries to approach, make a read. Fighting ZSS is a lot of making reads and that goes for the ZSS side of things too as MK's approach options come out very quickly. MKs, if we read a dash attack, shield or jump and punish her. Her dash attack is just like ours but with more ending lag so if she initiates close and we shield, she'll pop out on the other side of our shield so be ready to punish it. If we read a grab, Jump and punish. If you're in shield when she approaches or you shield a paralyzer shot, jump out of shield, it's the safest thing we can do since it avoids grab and she doesn't get much off her aerials if she does opt for that route.

ZSS' grab is her combo-starter. You can take all the pot shots she can throw at you and still come out on top but do not get grabbed (or stunned because that leads to grab.) This is part of the reason I think empty hopping often is a good idea because it gives you a much easier time avoiding her tether grabs while giving you access to all your moves after a very short fast fall or lets you just fly higher to avoid one of Zamus' approaches.

She has very few options to approach from the air since MK's short. Her SH FF N-Air whiffs on grounded MK unless timed perfectly, same with F-Air & B-Air, and they become more telegraphed because she has to wait before she can land it. (F-Air needs to be almost frame perfect against MK.) That also makes landing a chore for her. However, respect the empty hop! Her options from an empty hop bait are almost as good as ours and might be better than ours if her grab wasn't slow. And once again, remember Z-Air; it may not be too threatening at 6% damage but it gets us off balance and we lose stage control.
Also fast fall air dodge or jump/cape away if she goes for Up-Air juggles, she has no business juggling us.

If I can accentuate one thing about this MU, more than anything, punish her moves! Our Dash Attack beats her Jab and clanks with Paralyzer (AKA her B&B defenses,) we can Up-B OoS against her SH N-Air, we can punish her Down-B landing lag, Nado beats Paralyzer, if you read a D-Smash roll behind her and Up-Smash for a KO or grab her, also DI her Up-B too it should almost never KO you (DI Up & Behind ZSS.) There's so many little things about this MU we can do in the neutral that makes ZSS a far easier fight than it looks on the outside.

Overall, I think ZSS is a solid 50:50. She has very solid options and can control the flow of the match but if she throws out an unsafe option or doesn't properly react to one of MK's approach options (dash attack in particular,) MK will pull the rug from under her feet and tack on damage very quickly as she struggles to reset to neutral. But the same goes for MK, as one stray paralyzer shot or a raw grab could cost him stage control, damage, and even a stock. Both sides also need good reads to KO the other since neither side has a KO move that's perfectly safe, so this MU definitely comes down to player skill far more than anything else.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS is one of the MU's I've been working on more recently as my Tuesday local tourney "paycheck" is always guarded by a solid ZSS and a smart Fox. It's slowly becoming one of my favorite MUs as well. Not that it's easy, mind you, it can just be very intense and those are the MUs I like.

This is less of a comparison post and more just sharing what I found that really helps MK in this MU, mostly in the neutral at that.

Against ZSS, if I don't have momentum, I empty hop to fast fall and hover a lot at about mid-range and what that does is pretty much negate her ability to grab or use her stun gun safely while I can quickly land and throw out a dash attack at almost any point or shield even. Dash Attack is how I break apart ZSS' defenses most of the time. However, ZSS can combat this with Z-Air so if you see ZSS jump, fast fall immediately into shield if you're airborne. MK doesn't get hit by Z-Air easily if he's grounded anyway since he's short. But still, getting hit by a Z-Air into nothing is better than getting grabbed and thrown into a combo, plus you got ZSS out of her defensive stance and into the air by forcing the Z-Air so read that next time and approach for a combo. If you can get momentum against ZSS, it's not hard to keep it. The problem in this MU is that ZSS can set up a wall of safe moves, all grounded, and keep you out. If you prevent her from setting that wall up again by just having momentum and smart movement, you'll be in a winning position. Also Dash Attack, can't stress that enough. Beats her Jab, clanks with Paralyzer, and nets you easy combos for 20-30+%. Use it!

Always respect her options but if she tries to approach, make a read. Fighting ZSS is a lot of making reads and that goes for the ZSS side of things too as MK's approach options come out very quickly. MKs, if we read a dash attack, shield or jump and punish her. Her dash attack is just like ours but with more ending lag so if she initiates close and we shield, she'll pop out on the other side of our shield so be ready to punish it. If we read a grab, Jump and punish. If you're in shield when she approaches or you shield a paralyzer shot, jump out of shield, it's the safest thing we can do since it avoids grab and she doesn't get much off her aerials if she does opt for that route.

ZSS' grab is her combo-starter. You can take all the pot shots she can throw at you and still come out on top but do not get grabbed (or stunned because that leads to grab.) This is part of the reason I think empty hopping often is a good idea because it gives you a much easier time avoiding her tether grabs while giving you access to all your moves after a very short fast fall or lets you just fly higher to avoid one of Zamus' approaches.

She has very few options to approach from the air since MK's short. Her SH FF N-Air whiffs on grounded MK unless timed perfectly, same with F-Air & B-Air, and they become more telegraphed because she has to wait before she can land it. (F-Air needs to be almost frame perfect against MK.) That also makes landing a chore for her. However, respect the empty hop! Her options from an empty hop bait are almost as good as ours and might be better than ours if her grab wasn't slow. And once again, remember Z-Air; it may not be too threatening at 6% damage but it gets us off balance and we lose stage control.
Also fast fall air dodge or jump/cape away if she goes for Up-Air juggles, she has no business juggling us.

If I can accentuate one thing about this MU, more than anything, punish her moves! Our Dash Attack beats her Jab and clanks with Paralyzer (AKA her B&B defenses,) we can Up-B OoS against her SH N-Air, we can punish her Down-B landing lag, Nado beats Paralyzer, if you read a D-Smash roll behind her and Up-Smash for a KO or grab her, also DI her Up-B too it should almost never KO you (DI Up & Behind ZSS.) There's so many little things about this MU we can do in the neutral that makes ZSS a far easier fight than it looks on the outside.

Overall, I think ZSS is a solid 50:50. She has very solid options and can control the flow of the match but if she throws out an unsafe option or doesn't properly react to one of MK's approach options (dash attack in particular,) MK will pull the rug from under her feet and tack on damage very quickly as she struggles to reset to neutral. But the same goes for MK, as one stray paralyzer shot or a raw grab could cost him stage control, damage, and even a stock. Both sides also need good reads to KO the other since neither side has a KO move that's perfectly safe, so this MU definitely comes down to player skill far more than anything else.

Good Wright up the only two critiques I have with it are mk cannot escape up b for free unless zss has high rage because the zss player can always catch the DI. Nair and Bair I do not find hard to hit mk with at all. I can nair FF at the apex of the SH and it seems fine. Especially nair because it hits pretty low. Well I guess one more thing grab is not her only combo starter nair and uair are very good ones too.

 

[Galactic Knight]

mk vs zss imo is a real 60:40+ for zss, but smash match up standards (which are terrible) will argue 50:50 (*sigh*).

In short, nothing of MK's is safe. His extreme lightweight with all of our easy hit-confirms at every point of the match up make things very unfair for the bat. 20-30% confirms, killing well below 100% and his aerial mobility + fall speed make for easy traps. Our jump height + uair don't care enough about 6 jumps.

I also am not the type to underrate MK.

Personally I find this matchup barbaric for Meta Knight, since he's in for the time of his life attempting to gimp Zero Suit Samus. I recently played a mediocre Zero Suit Samus player and although I won, I found it to be a struggle to KO her successfully at anything less than 100%. Perhaps my personal play style leaves me at a distinct disadvantage against Zero Suit Samus, though a good player who mains her is likely to leave me little to no room to come out on top. Not that I entirely mind being beneath Zero Suit Samus.

 

[warionumbah2]

Against lightweights you shouldn't focus of gimps, she ain't Falcon who can take shuttle loops out of DA until 120%.

not the best gameplay the zss player was not that good and meta knight can't string uair to save his life and never finishes it off when he does get it with shuttle loop. But may as well post it since I can't find any video that has the two fighting, would love to see better players so we can actually get useful things out of this since it was one sided.

 

[Galactic Knight]

Against lightweights you shouldn't focus of gimps, she ain't Falcon who can take shuttle loops out of DA until 120%.

not the best gameplay the zss player was not that good and meta knight can't string uair to save his life and never finishes it off when he does get it with shuttle loop. But may as well post it since I can't find any video that has the two fighting, would love to see better players so we can actually get useful things out of this since it was one sided.

Ideally, I wouldn't, but approaching Zero Suit Samus is difficult with my playstyle.

 

[Exdeath]

This match-up is awful in general, since ZSS is terrifying at just about every position thanks to her Down-B being invincible and then fast enough to punish if you attempt to hit her and whiff during it while dying at mid % to the same. This makes juggles, edge guarding and even ledge trapping less effective positions against her while she can still freely juggle reset due to her excellent range and fall speed -- remember that you can't initiate a fast fall while taking knockback and that if you jump first, she'll have already landed and that you are then essentially approaching her by fast falling into her.

Even so, the most important thing to remember is this: Zero Suit Samus does not have a grab. Get a .gif of ZSS grabbing and study it while spot dodging on reaction to the start-up so that your muscle memory is ready. If you do this then she can not grab you out of a standing or shielding position. What she can do is pivot grab to stuff all of MK's approaches on reaction to him initiating a dash.

My current concept of this match-up comes down to both characters being bad and unable to approach the other one for different reasons. Because of this, the most important skill at neutral will be the ability to execute the above and movement. You must be able to move in a way that feints without committing so that ZSS either commits in a way that you can punish on reaction (e.g. jumping forward) or that forces her to corner herself (e.g. pivot grabbing). This includes, but is not limited to jumping to feint a tornado, rolling to feint a dash attack, etc.

I'll try to record some matches against Nick Riddle the next time that he visits and try to come up with a better concept for this match-up.

 

[David Viran]

I don't think muscle memory will let you dodge her grab 100% of the time. Her dash grab looks like a fox trot. I noticed that not even ally was spot dodging her grab from a standing walking position consistently.

 

[Exdeath]

Ally doesn't practice the game outside of tournaments.

 

[David Viran]

It doesn't change the fact that his reaction time is ridiculously good.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Doesn't she often just grab you even if you spot dodge cause the grab lingers for so long? Feels like not only do you have to be quick or predict the grab, you also have to time it immaculately.

 

[Exdeath]

If you're reacting to the grab then it will inherently be immaculate.

 

[Mental Surge]

Omg screw this mu. I feel like it is such an uphill fight. I honestly don't know what to do in it anymore. Generally I found that being passive, getting good shields, and going for grabs, as well as waiting to punish the missed ZZS grabs, was a decent way of beating them. However lately every ZZS I face just destroys me. She is so fast, and as soon as you get grabbed, or stun/grabbed, you get comboed to death.

What's worse is that I just recently faced a ZZS that was good at grabbing in particular, and if she grabbed me anywhere near a ledge, she would back throw, and then spike for an INCREDIBLY early kill. I can't believe I have only just experienced this now.

Seriously, I hate this mu.

 

[Shaya]

, and if she grabbed me anywhere near a ledge, she would back throw, and then spike for an INCREDIBLY early kill. I can't believe I have only just experienced this now..

ZSS isn't meant to be doing that on wifi lest it accidentally gets noticed.
There is DI you can use to avoid it (you can go up and away or down and away, generally away into air dodge should be safe), puff balls (Jigg/kirby/mk) for whatever reason have a hard time avoiding it.

 

[Mental Surge]

ZSS isn't meant to be doing that on wifi lest it accidentally gets noticed.
There is DI you can use to avoid it (you can go up and away or down and away, generally away into air dodge should be safe), puff balls (Jigg/kirby/mk) for whatever reason have a hard time avoiding it.

Surprised more people on FG dont do this.

 

[Shaya]

Because we make sure we don't talk about it.
And that you do it really rarely so people think it's a fluke.

But yeah, you would be able to air dodge it if you were thinking it was coming most of the time.

 

[Mental Surge]

That's rude. XD

 

[Jamurai]

ZSS Matchup Re-Discussion

- 1 ​

Summary:

• One of MK's hardest matchups because it forces a change of playstyle in order to make it less difficult
• She takes away MK's strengths by being very difficult to juggle and edgeguard
• Possesses a similarly devastating punish game while having good SH spacing options in neutral to help avoid our ground moves
• Prioritise maintaining a lead. Bait from the air and from platforms to avoid her grab and poke her, try to punish any commitment

Playstyle:

In most matchups MK likes to stay grounded, using his mobility and threatening mid-range to bait the enemy and to get in for a dash attack/grab punish. Against a good, defensive ZSS, this playstyle may well get MK destroyed. Trying to bait out a grab is obviously #thedream, it's so laggy that if it whiffs she is going to eat a big combo no matter what (her fall speed is good for our combos). Pay attention to the moments they want to grab and try to bait them into doing so. However a patient ZSS will usually only go for grabs if they're confident in a read or it is preceded by a setup move, eg. Paralyzer or Dsmash. Getting grabbed is very scary for MK because he is light and has a good fall speed for ZSS's combos. In order to avoid grabs we can use our good spotdodge and rolls, as well as FH or immediate double jump.

There are two ways to play out this matchup.

1) We can stay grounded in mid range and be very patient, attempting to bait out a commitment like a grab and punish her for it. Powershielding Paralyzer is good and can lead to baiting out a grab or, if you're fast enough you can simply dash attack/grab its endlag. This playstyle works pretty well against aggressive ZSS players (and aggressive players in general), but against defensive, baity, patient players, it is quite risky. Hitting shield is scary because ZSS has awesome OOS options in Up-B and Utilt, both of which kill. If we whiff anything with medium-to-high endlag eg. Tornado, Usmash, etc. we're going to eat a lot of %.

2) Stay airborne and on platforms as much as possible and poke and bait from there. This means ZSS can't grab you which is the main threat. Maintaining a lead is the primary focus so that she has to attack you, not the other way around. With good reaction time, we can punish her for poking at our shield with aerials if we're on a platform. And if we know she's going to commit to a move like USmash or even if she commits to a jump, we can fast-fall and punish that on read with dash attack, something OOS, etc. Go hard on the punish and then go back to platform- and air-camping once she regains her footing. Uairs are fairly threatening but can be played around. Do not be tempted to Dair camp because it is beaten by at least Usmash. Here is a video of Katakiri playing in this manner (on Wifi).​

Get up options: avoid going for a normal getup or get up attack since she will often go for down smash the very first time you snap the ledge. We have one of the best get up rolls in the game, use it to avoid being down smashed on the edge which equals death (by Flip Kick), but make sure you mix it up with ledge drop double jump or ledge jump. Occasionally go for neutral get up but avoid doing it too often because it is so dangerous. If she keeps charging Dsmash or Paralyzer near the edge, punish it with DCape; if you have rage and/or she is at high %, that could be a free stock (this also applies to onstage in general, but DCape is deadly near the edge).

Juggling and edgeguarding: this is very difficult because of her extreme mobility. For example, with regards to juggling, she can flip jump out as soon as our combo ends and reset back to neutral. The only recovery which is remotely edgeguardable is Zair snap to the ledge; fall off and try to Nair her as she retracts the whip to pull herself to the ledge. It can be difficult though because of Sm4sh tether grab physics. Flip Jump recovering high can be susceptible to Bair but be very careful.

Other points:

• Tornado and Drill Rush both go through Paralyzer
• Dash attack beats her grab and clanks with Paralyzer
• Recover low almost always to avoid down-B
• Watch out for Bthrow to down-B near the edge at low-mid %s, it works well on characters of our weight and can lead to a very early stock. Try to DI away and airdodge the kick
• Make use of DCape to get out of disadvantage situations but make sure to mix it up
• ZSS's SH Nair is punishable with Up-B OOS
• If ZSS hits our shield with down-B you can punish with Usmash, also with Up-B but this is more risky
• From 99%+, Dtilt will pop ZSS off the ground, if she techs in place or fails to tech you can follow up with grounded Up-B which should always kill her
• A good mixup at low %s is to Dtilt ZSS, she is likely to spam her frame 1 jab to avoid followup so you can roll behind and get a free punish

This video describes how to DI out of Boost Kick; a good watch. 23 Jan: Please see my post below for all the info on DIing Boost Kick.

Fresh DA > Uairs > Up-B kill % (FD, no staling):

All strong hit of dash attack (hitbox 1)

20-23% 4 Uairs to Up-B (100% rage)
24-28% 3 Uairs to Up-B (100% rage)
29-31% 2 Uairs to Up-B (100% rage)

28-33% 4 Uairs to Up-B
34-36% 3 Uairs to Up-B
37-39% 3 Uairs to Up-B, extra jump before Up-B

Stages:

1) "Normal":
BAN: Battlefield, Dreamland
PICK: Smashville, T&C
C/PICK: Duck Hunt, Halberd

2) Platform camping:
BAN: Delfino, FD/Ω
PICK: Smashville, Battlefield
C/PICK: T&C, Halberd

Finished

 

[David Viran]

ZSS Matchup Re-Discussion

40:60 ​

Summary:

• MK's hardest matchup because it forces a change of playstyle in order to not get bodied
• She takes away MK's strengths by being very difficult to juggle and edgeguard
• Possesses a similarly devastating punish game while having good SH spacing options in neutral to help avoid our ground moves
• Prioritise maintaining a lead. Bait from the air and from platforms to avoid her grab and poke her, try to punish any commitment

Playstyle:

In most matchups MK likes to stay grounded, using his mobility and threatening mid-range to bait the enemy and to get in for a dash attack/grab punish. Against a good, defensive ZSS, this playstyle may well get MK destroyed. Trying to bait out a grab is obviously #thedream, it's so laggy that if it whiffs she is going to eat a big combo no matter what (her fall speed is good for our combos). Pay attention to the moments they want to grab and try to bait them into doing so. However a patient ZSS will usually only go for grabs if they're confident in a read or it is preceded by a setup move, eg. Paralyzer or Dsmash. Getting grabbed is very scary for MK because he is light and has a good fall speed for ZSS's combos. In order to avoid grabs we can use our good spotdodge and rolls, as well as FH or immediate double jump.

There are two ways to play out this matchup.

1) We can stay grounded in mid range and be very patient, attempting to bait out a commitment like a grab and punish her for it. Powershielding Paralyzer is good and can lead to baiting out a grab or, if you're fast enough you can simply dash attack/grab its endlag. This playstyle works pretty well against aggressive ZSS players (and aggressive players in general), but against defensive, baity, patient players, it is quite risky. Hitting shield is scary because ZSS has awesome OOS options in Up-B and Utilt, both of which kill. If we whiff anything with medium-to-high endlag eg. Tornado, Usmash, etc. we're going to eat a lot of %.

2) Stay airborne and on platforms as much as possible and poke and bait from there. This means ZSS can't grab you which is the main threat. Maintaining a lead is the primary focus so that she has to attack you, not the other way around. With good reaction time, we can punish her for poking at our shield with aerials if we're on a platform. And if we know she's going to commit to a move like USmash or even if she commits to a jump, we can fast-fall and punish that on read. Go hard on the punish and then go back to platform- and air-camping once she regains her footing. Uairs are fairly threatening but can be played around. Here is a video of Katakiri playing in this manner (on Wifi).​

Get up options: avoid going for a normal getup or get up attack since she will often go for down smash the very first time you snap the ledge. We have one of the best get up rolls in the game, use it to avoid being down smashed on the edge which equals death (by Flip Kick), but make sure you mix it up with ledge drop double jump or ledge jump. Occasionally go for neutral get up but avoid doing it too often because it is so dangerous.

Juggling and edgeguarding: this is very difficult because of her extreme mobility. For example, with regards to juggling, she can flip jump out as soon as our combo ends and reset back to neutral. The only recovery which is remotely edgeguardable is Zair snap to the ledge, but it's difficult and if ZSS jumps straight away there's little you can do to punish. Flip Jump recovering high can be susceptible to Bair but be very careful.

Other points:

• Recover low almost always to avoid down-B
• Make use of DCape to get out of disadvantage situations but make sure to mix it up
• (rare) If ZSS hits our sheild with down-B it is punishable with Usmash, also with Up-B but this is more risky.

This video describes how to DI out of Boost Kick; a good watch. Essentially, say ZSS is facing right, smash DI to the left by holding the stick to the left and waggling it to the up-left and down-left positions (each time it goes between directions it counts as a SDI input). Make sure you DI the final hit down and away to survive as long as possible.

DA > Uairs > Up-B kill %s:

20-39%, all 1st hitbox of dash attack

• 20-23% 4 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 24-28% 4 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 28-32% 4 uairs to SL
• 29-31% 2 uairs to SL (100% rage)
• 32-33% 4 uairs to SL
• 34-36% 3 uairs to SL
• 37-39% 3 uairs to SL (extra jump before SL)

Stages:

BAN: Delfino, FD/Ω
PICK: Smashville, Battlefield
C/PICK: Halberd, T&C

Good write up but only DI boost kick down and away if you are already at the top of the screen. From the ground you want to either hold down or down and in defending how close you are to the side blast zone.

 

[Mental Surge]

Because we make sure we don't talk about it.
And that you do it really rarely so people think it's a fluke.

But yeah, you would be able to air dodge it if you were thinking it was coming most of the time.

That's not true lol. There's no time to react because you are still locked into the direction you are being thrown in. You literally can't avoid it sometimes.

 

[warionumbah2]

In terms of difficulty I would not rank zss above sheik.

I'll try and time stamp tyrant facing a zss at paragon.

@Uair combo stuff, 3rd hit works at the same percents so any DA will do. Usually the 3rd hit allows us to kill earlier but ZSS dun care due to her gravity + weight + hurtbox + fallspeed.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/14777927?t=2h22m13s

 

[busken]

Golly, when I see a ZSS not named Nairo they look like total garbage.

 

[Amadeus9]

With new patch ZSS has got to be our worst matchup. Not really because it got much harder (which it kinda did, ZSS nair = RIP us), it's moreso that Sheik got easier. This is all due to shield changes BTW

 

[Jamurai]

Leaving this here, good resource on how to avoid dying to ZSS bnb and Boost Kick in general.

 

[Jamurai]

ZSS Matchup Update

SH Uair:

This matchup is closer to even than previously thought. We have a tool which works very well against her: SH Uair. ZSS lacks rising aerials, most of the time she uses them when falling back towards the ground, like Greninja. If ZSS short or full hops intending to come back down with a spacing Nair or something else, we can catch her as she rises with SH Uair.

This links into more Uairs and into Up-B, which can kill at certain %s, especially if Uair is already stale. If it is not, a SH Uair combo at low %s will rack up over 40% damage onto your target and stale Uairs dramatically for the rest of your stock, widening the % range for a kill confirm off dash attack, Utilt etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Up-B DI summary:

Also, I thought I would summarise the video above into a simple reference guide if one wants to check the right way to DI Boost Kick at a glance. If you learn this you don't need to fear Boost Kick, just her bull**** down-B.

.
Grounded Up-B:

The % we are at hardly affects anything to do with Boost Kick connecting properly.

Distance from the ledge:

• Middle-stage and further away: DI down
• DI more and more inwards as you get towards the edge
• Right at the ledge: DI in and slightly down

Boost Kick completion:

ZSS has little rage:

• If very high above ZSS, one will be launched upwards by the fifth hit
• If high above ZSS, one will finish just high enough to not be caught by the finisher --> PUNISH
• If just above ZSS, practically inescapable
• If next to ZSS, can DI to escape --> PUNISH (maybe)

ZSS has high rage:

• If slightly below ZSS, treated the same as being next to her without rage (follow the table)
• If next to ZSS, DI up/away to finish high enough to not be caught by the finisher --> PUNISH
• If above ZSS, one will get launched upwards by the fifth hit

How to DI in an attempt to escape when next to her (input the DI immediately after being hit):

. |ZSS holds forward|No input|ZSS holds backward
Hit when close|DI in|DI in|
Hit when far away|DI in||DI away

Combating Uair x2 to Boost Kick:

• If near the edge, DI the Uairs towards the stage
• For the Boost Kick finisher, DI down to not die off the top blastzone
• When you are at ~40% plus (before the combo), DI up Boost Kick's multihits and you should not get hit by the finisher

• At the edge of Smashville, DI the Uairs offstage so ZSS will have to SD to finish you off with Boost Kick
• On Town & City, DI the Uairs away so you can survive the low ceiling. If at the edge, RIP