[OUTDATED] Meta Knight Match-up Discussion 2 | Sheik

[busken]

Week 2: Sheik

​

Things to be discussed:

• Character Strengths and Weaknesses
• How to effectively bait or approach opponent
• Spacing
• Off-stage game
• Effective punishes/combo strings
• Moves to avoid
• Counterpicks
• Overall Matchup Ratio

 

[busken]

I've been putting more time into MK and while I do understand your frustration with Sonic, I doubt that MK has any 3:7 MUs. The reason that the match-up is bad is because the Sonic can time you out once they get the lead and MK can't really approach Sonic very well. What MK can do, though, is turtle Sonic better than almost every member of the cast. Dash grab/dash attack allow MK to punish Sonic's tilts and those in combination with Dtilt and Dair allow him to keep out dash-ins.

The main problem comes with spin dash: I don't believe that MK really has a direct answer to it, as it out-trades or clashes with MK's grounded move set. Technically, his aerials should beat it cleanly, but the risk/reward for landing anything but the first hits of Bair is discouraging. On the other hand, MK also has some of the most vertical range in the game in Up-B, which is bolstered by his fast ground speed and dash attack -- a very safe punish option should they continue spin dash on the ground. On top of these, Down B can cover both of these options and is useful to close out the stock (most of Sonic's easy MUs can't kill him because they must punish his spin dash with non-kill moves).

Generally you want Sonic to be in the air on-stage, as MK can juggle Sonic just as well as most of the cast, if not edge guard him. If Sonic tries to recover high then be there so that you can prevent him homing by air dodging and hitting his spin dash. If he grabs the ledge then you have a ledge trump and tornado/cape 50/50 that either does 7+damage and resets the situation or 15+damage and a possible kill. This is also a spot to use Fsmash, as you can space and time it so that you'll beat spin dash onto the stage instead of clashing and either out-trade or hit everything but ledge roll. If Sonic recovers low then keep an eye out for him being sloppy and try to time a Dair to catch his ledge grab frame (it recovers fast enough to still use the 50/50 that I mentioned above).

As a side note, I believe that MK beats Falcon if you use your combos to put Falcon off-stage instead of juggle/damage rack and then take his stock.

The sonic mu discussion is over. I already stated that as the meta grows and evolves we will touchback on previous matchups. I don't undestand why you would post about sonic when the title and discussion topic is right above you. It's good for you to voice your thoughts but when it's off-topic you can make thoughts unorganized and disorient users.

 

[warionumbah2]

Sheiks strengths
+ Projectile that can set up bouncing fish
+ No end lag on aerials
+ Easy accessible combos at low percents
+ Great mobility
+ Great shield poke moves
+ Good edgeguard tools

Sheiks weaknesses
- She's 4 places above us in weight meaning she's light
- Damage per hit is worse than ours
- Can't kill anywhere near as early as us
- Smash attacks aren't as safe as ours to throw out in neutral

Bait and Approach

Approach on the ground for starters, MK has an amazing ground game but using aerials on stage is dangerous due to end lag not to mention Sheik having faster aerials than ours and less end lag. Dash into Shield is a good bait against Sheik players especially those who love to approach with Fairs or any aerials in general. Never let go of your shield unless you anticipate a grab, Sheiks aerials as i said have little to no landing lag so she can use her jab right after. another solid approach option is Dash --> Shield --> Dtilt, its a quick poke which has a 25% chance of tripping aka Combo starter. Even if it doesn't trip go in for a DA or DG(this will mostly work since the majority of players bring up their shields right after getting Dtilt then i look back and think "i could've grabbed them"). DA is safe on shield due to its piercing effect but of course don't spam it. Another bait tool is F-Smash then using Dtilt, those who lack knowledge on MK moves will fall for this.

Spacing

Mid-Range or in her face, this prevents her from throwing needles mindlessly and also invalidates surprise bouncing fishes. Staying Mid Range allows us to react to her moves via powershield or Dtilt. Most of the time she'll approach you since your obviously close for her to attack. In close range try to space yourself away from Dtilt and Ftilt since she can easily combo MK at low percents although they don't do alot of damage, its a bread and butter thing to do and it works really well on MK so stay just outside their range and punish them for it. Even at high percents Ftilt combo's into Fair.

Off Stage Game

Our off stage game is just as good as Sheiks if not better due to our safe recovery options, we can beat out her bouncing fish recovery attempts using nair and also abuse the 2 frame vulnerability when she snaps the ledge using her Up B with our Bair. When we are off stage we can mix up our recovery and use DC to avoid edgeguard attempts altogether. Moves such as Fair is also good due to its disjointed hit box, Sheiks Bair is really good at getting stage spikes and also ledge trump into Bair is a thing and really cheesy. We have multiple jumps and 3 recovery options so we honestly can handle edge guard attempts better than Sheik.

Punishes and Combo's

Mach Tornado is a really good punish move during CQC and also good at punishing spot dodges, my favorite combo or string on BF is uair + uair and when they pop above the platform i jump again and use mach tornado. Down throw to U-Smash is a to go to move at low percents it gives us a nice 17%. If the Sheik player throws out Fairs and Nairs to pressure us in neutral we can throw out a SH Fair which beats out all her aerials although its dangerous to due to end lag, if you do this make sure you pull back as much as possible and use Dtilt(Frame 3 fastest Dtilt in the game abuse it love it and master it). Nair OOS is also a good get off me tool since Sheik can literally cross up our shield with Nair/Fair and apply pressure. Basic combo's such as DA --> Utilt. DA --> Shuttle Loop. Hoo Ha!(Down throw to Shuttle Loop) etc all work on Sheik. Our U-Smash with no rage can kill her at 120% on FD no rage. If you find an opening near the ledge at low percentages use Dtilt the Sheik player will fall off the stage in a falling animation similar to the footstool animation, they can either jump up or use their Up B if you are quick enough you can quickly get of stage and use bair. This is also why MK has such a huge advantage when opponents are on the ledge. Also we have a solid OOS option called shuttle loop, characters such as Greninja struggle against her because other than jab his OOS options aren't that helpful(from what i gathered from the MU thread).

Moves to avoid

Ftilt and Dtilt at low percents, just remember to keep calm you can easily equalize the damage by getting your own combo in although its best to not get hit at all. Like her Ftilt x3 into Fair does 19% a simple Down throw to shuttle loop does 19.5% while a grounded shuttle loop earns us 22.5%. Alot of her moves aren't dangerous until you reach high percent, her Up B has insane KB so when attempting gimps be very careful. Bair can also be dangerous respect that move especially when she's coming down facing away from you, Needles are also dangerous as they set up into her bouncing fish. Bouncing Fish onstage or off is dangerous, always be ready by moving around using dash into shield as i said earlier.

Counterpicks

From the games i've played(FD,BF,SV,) and matches i've watched Sheik excels on any stage, our best stage is BF we can abuse our Utilt if our opponent is on the lower platforms and also score nice Uair strings from right under them. MK is like a shark on this stage and Mach Tornado is very good on this stage for chasing and landing safely also giving us the ability to stage spike with nair/bair. Upper platforms allow us to kill sooner with up throw, so long as MK is under the upper platform he'll always slam his victims on that platform.

Match Ratio

53:47 We have the edge in the damage department thanks to our heavy hitting follow ups and mach tornado. However Sheik has safer aerials and better mobility and amazing shield pressuring moves, her moves come out fast but we have Dtilt which allows to combat any character face to face. We both have kill setups but we can kill her much much earlier especially when F-Smash is more useful in this MU since she has to get in pretty close to engage us. Edgeguard attempts get ignored by DC but we can edgeguard her thanks to our disjointed hitboxes forcing her to go for the ledge or recover low, only dangerous thing is her reversing the situation if we decide to bring the fight off stage.

 

[Katakiri]

Once again, I don't have much to add that Warionumbah2 didn't already cover.

The MU summed-up is: Sheik has better point-blank (Jab, Tilts, SH F-Air, & Grab) and long-range options (needles) but MK has a much more dangerous mid-range game (dash grab, DA, D-Air, F-Smash) with a wide array of KO options. Both characters combo very well at low- to mid-percents. Neither character has the options to box-out the other and both characters have hard to gimp recoveries, so games usually come down to who can play footies best. However, MK has the important advantage of having far more KO options and can end Sheik's stock if she makes any mistake with Shuttle Loop OoS, Up-Smash, F-Smash, Rage D-Smash, Rage N-Air, and even combos off of grab, Up-Air, or Dash Attack. So long as MK's aware of ledge-trumping, Sheik doesn't get B-Airs on MK off-stage due to his recovery tools which is a huge part of Sheik's KO game in other MUs.
I believe the MU is a solid 55-45 in 's favor. This would be 50-50 if Sheik didn't have a harder time KOing MK than MK does Sheik. While it's still not our most favorable MU, this is my favorite MK MU as it is very fast-paced and character control is the biggest deciding factor for victory.

This is a set of For Glory games in which I noticed the Sheik was starting to adapt to my MK so started to record it thinking it would help discussion:

You'll notice that he keeps getting closer and closer by subtly changing how he approaches then eventually beats me before I quickly adapt to his F-Air & N-Air game by throwing out F-Airs to catch him and shut down those options. It's a neat back & forth.

Edit: A slight change of opinion. I think it actually is closer than 55-45. 53-47 seems better to me. Sheik players Judo and Ralph Cecil showed me yesterday that it's not quite as easy for MK to get that KO but Sheik still struggle a bit more to get it too. I lived until 208% one match.

 

[meleebrawler]

Once again, I don't have much to add that Warionumbah2 didn't already cover.

The MU summed-up is: Sheik has better point-blank (Jab, Tilts, SH F-Air, & Grab) and long-range options (needles) but MK has a much more dangerous mid-range game (dash grab, DA, D-Air, F-Smash) with a wide array of KO options. Both characters combo very well at low- to mid-percents. Neither character has the options to box-out the other and both characters have hard to gimp recoveries, so games usually come down to who can play footies best. However, MK has the important advantage of having far more KO options and can end Sheik's stock if she makes any mistake with Shuttle Loop OoS, Up-Smash, F-Smash, Rage D-Smash, Rage N-Air, and even combos off of grab, Up-Air, or Dash Attack. So long as MK's aware of ledge-trumping, Sheik doesn't get B-Airs on MK off-stage due to his recovery tools which is a huge part of Sheik's KO game in other MUs.
I believe the MU is a solid 55-45 in 's favor. This would be 50-50 if Sheik didn't have a harder time KOing MK than MK does Sheik. While it's still not our most favorable MU, this is my favorite MK MU as it is very fast-paced and character control is the biggest deciding factor for victory.

This is a set of For Glory games in which I noticed the Sheik was starting to adapt to my MK so started to record it thinking it would help discussion:

You'll notice that he keeps getting closer and closer by subtly changing how he approaches then eventually beats me before I quickly adapt to his F-Air & N-Air game by throwing out F-Airs to catch him and shut down those options. It's a neat back & forth.

Edit: A slight change of opinion. I think it actually is closer than 55-45. 53-47 seems better to me. Sheik players Judo and Ralph Cecil showed me yesterday that it's not quite as easy for MK to get that KO but Sheik still struggle a bit more to get it too. I lived until 208% one match.

Don't forget U-throw as a kill move on stubborn opponents. Especially with rage (again).

 

[Exdeath]

Once again, I don't have much to add that Warionumbah2 didn't already cover.

The MU summed-up is: Sheik has better point-blank (Jab, Tilts, SH F-Air, & Grab) and long-range options (needles) but MK has a much more dangerous mid-range game (dash grab, DA, D-Air, F-Smash) with a wide array of KO options. Both characters combo very well at low- to mid-percents. Neither character has the options to box-out the other and both characters have hard to gimp recoveries, so games usually come down to who can play footies best. However, MK has the important advantage of having far more KO options and can end Sheik's stock if she makes any mistake with Shuttle Loop OoS, Up-Smash, F-Smash, Rage D-Smash, Rage N-Air, and even combos off of grab, Up-Air, or Dash Attack. So long as MK's aware of ledge-trumping, Sheik doesn't get B-Airs on MK off-stage due to his recovery tools which is a huge part of Sheik's KO game in other MUs.
I believe the MU is a solid 55-45 in 's favor. This would be 50-50 if Sheik didn't have a harder time KOing MK than MK does Sheik. While it's still not our most favorable MU, this is my favorite MK MU as it is very fast-paced and character control is the biggest deciding factor for victory.

This is a set of For Glory games in which I noticed the Sheik was starting to adapt to my MK so started to record it thinking it would help discussion:

You'll notice that he keeps getting closer and closer by subtly changing how he approaches then eventually beats me before I quickly adapt to his F-Air & N-Air game by throwing out F-Airs to catch him and shut down those options. It's a neat back & forth.

Edit: A slight change of opinion. I think it actually is closer than 55-45. 53-47 seems better to me. Sheik players Judo and Ralph Cecil showed me yesterday that it's not quite as easy for MK to get that KO but Sheik still struggle a bit more to get it too. I lived until 208% one match.

Sheik should pretty much just go for free and safe Bair/Up-B kills. If she Fthrows you at ~120% then it's a 50/50 on your stock. Sheik's dash attack actually does quite a bit of disruption in MK's neutral stance; Meta Knight is supposed to be dashing often and dash attack covers an immense amount of space that disrupts MK's mid-range neutral stance.

While I think that Sheik beats MK (and every other character) when played perfectly, if she doesn't then she is one of the easiest characters in the game to kill -- she's a fast-falling lightweight with a humanoid frame. Yummy.

Up-B consistently connects both hits without good DI, using Side-B to hit her vulnerable frame when she's forced to use Up-B to recover is amazing and can loop into itself (the solution for Sheik is to bounce beneath the stage and use the other ledge, otherwise it's a death unless MK makes a mistake). If she bounces on your shield, it's a guaranteed Up-B OoS. Use rolls to trick her into whiffing Ftilt/Dtilt/Jab in the opposite direction in order to start your Dtilt/Fsmash shield pressure. SHNair early if you expect her to go for safe Fairs and Up-B OoS if you expect her to go for high Fairs. If she Jab 2s your shield, it's a guaranteed grab. If Jab 3 starts then roll behind her to grab it. Don't challenge the zone of Usmash; it's invincible and has deceptive range (her swords for Usmash are longer ranged than MK's non-Fsmash/-Down-B). Sheik doesn't have enough aerial mobility to escape Uair>Up-B/Down-B traps, so abuse that.

Sheik's Up-B is fast and difficult to hit confirm for ledge trumps, so act quickly by initiating a dash to the ledge and either ledge trumping>Bair/Up-B or dashing back>Fsmash. This will be her death ~120% without rage, 70% with rage. If she's having a hard time killing you then be as safe as possible; Sheik players often get flustered and stop playing safe. Danger Sheik players are easy Sheik players.

I've only really played this MU once against FL's best Sheik and it went to game 5. I'll be playing against him at some point this week and I'll look for more stuff.

 

[warionumbah2]

BUMP

My opinions changed and i know other MKs want to re do this MU cuz lurkers are taking the MU chart in that thread to heart and think EVERY MK user thinks the same(we disagree with each other waaaaaay too much dunno if that's good or bad).

Pre patch against a non-campy sheik i'd say its even but if Sheik plays campy she wins without a doubt, now that we've gotten stronger neutral tools overall i think MK beats her 55:45.

We win the percent war,better kill options,we can cover her get up opinions easily and she cant combo and edgeguard us unless we do something dumb and Ftilt acts as an anti air move(3rd hit mainly). We also got solid oos options, so we aren't completely helpless in shield.

But if Sheik decides to play campy what can we do? Not saying she invalidates us by running away but her ability to tack on damage via needles is worrying, she can also avoid our ground approaches by sh. Its ridiculous how easy she can avoid us and her back roll is better than ours.

I'll say she 45:55 us if she maintains a cancerous playstyle, its much more manageable with the buffs. Pretty much the whole community thinks she's unbeatable, so yea...

 

[Ulevo]

Couple things I want to say. For starters, I think a little disagreement is healthy in these discussions because it means that there are parts to the match up puzzle each of us are missing. So long as we discuss thoroughly, then we can add to the overall picture. We do not have very one sided disagreements. No one here is saying Meta Knight goes 7:3 versus Luigi and other people saying it is 3:7. The differences are usually minimal.

Secondly, talking about the pros and cons of either character, where they excel, and the match up ratios...honestly have no place in these discussions. If I had to compare it to a book, its the superficial synopsis at the back and the appealing front cover. We need to talk about what we need to be doing in these match ups. If Sheik is charging Needle Storm, what do we do? If Sheik is edge guarding us, what do we do? If Sheik is at 90%, what are our options? What about 140%? Knowing a match up ratio, or that Sheik is a good character, is not going to help anyone who reads these threads win anything meaningful.

I am not saying there is not pertinent discussion happening, but a lot of it is frivolous and irrelevant. When I read these threads, I want to see information that will help me against a Sheik, not an explanation that I should or should not be winning the match up.

 

[ItoI6]

sheik cant really kill below 150 unless she gets tipper upsmash off of missed shuttle loop or an up air 50/50 off of dthrow at 110+. unlike most characters where she can trap their recoveries or landing options to get kills at reasonable percents, that doesnt really work vs mk...that said needle camping is incredibly lame and effective if the sheik player really wants to win given that all of mks approaches are on the ground. dont really think mk can do much in perfect play, but in practice its still pretty stressful for the sheik player. just be patient even if you are losing by a lot, the percent doesnt matter that much.

 

[warionumbah2]

Ok I'll try to take what you said into consideration @ Ulevo I'll edit this later you should also give tips and advice on what to do as well. Maybe we'll learn something new together and hopefully other MKs can do the same.

Although there's little we can do to needle camping, that's just something the player has to conquer mentally.

Alright im starting with Ulevo's questions then I'll come up with other stuff along the way. Hope i provide something useful and if i missed anything out just post it cuz we all need to feed off each other for knowledge. Like sponges.

Spoiler

What do we do when Sheik is charging her needles? Honestly there's not much we can do other than get into mid range, I recommend buffering your 2nd jump and use Dair to aid your aerial control so her needles wont hit. If sheik cancels it and goes towards us, fast fall into jab or Ftilt. Ftilt 3 is the best when it comes to swatting away her sh aerials even fair, jab is also good but the hitboxes are weird sometimes Sheik's fair will connect.

If Sheik is edgeguarding us, what do we do? Always fast fall low enough so that sheik cant hit us with bouncing fish, that is the only move she has that can harm us off stage. Drill rush is highly advised from a low-left/low-right angle as none of her aerials can beat it and bouncing fish wont connect from that angle. If sheik wants to use her grenade, simply cape past it or to the ledge depending on where it lands. Recovering low will basically give Sheik an opportunity to stage spike us.

When Sheik is at 90% what are our options? You can either bait an airdodge and end her with Uair into shuttle loop. Or go for dash attack into shuttle loop but you can only kill her at this percents with at least 50% rage. This is very stage dependent, so kill percents will vary.

What if Sheik is at 140% I recommend playing it safe and tacking on damage until up throw kills or tornado (depends on how much rage you have and stage). If platforms are around use it to your advantage for early up throw kills. Up smash is a kill move but it whiffs sometimes due to her hurtbox shrinking on some of her moves, a short hop happy sheik are prone to tornado's and up smash.

When we are down a stock. Never think the match is over, she is light and her damage per hit is awful. Keep the combos simple and always go for max damage. If sheik is camping with needles its pretty much down to your mentality, the sheik player has to WORK if she wants to camp us effectively as Ito said above.

When we are getting combo'd? Just DI correctly and never airdodge, vanish is a great move to punish airdodges and sweet-spot up smash out of down throw. We got 6 jumps and pretty good horizontal aerial mobility there's literally no reason to airdodge against her.

When's she's off stage. I recommend waiting on the ledge, if she bouncing fishes your shield you can punish with Fair but that's really difficult I've seen Ito do it before and I've done it on rare occasions. But really we should take advantage of our ledge coverage game, first time she grabs the ledge use jab to send her off. If she grabs it again, wait for a second then use jab but only tap the button. They will 99% of the time roll get up but the end lag on jab is so low that we can turn around and instant DA.

Mix up your options, using jab to cover get up options will condition her to roll get up. We can either tornado her,grab her or get a pivot F-Smash. At low percents im not out for the kill because i won't get it against her recovery but im out for the damage, you can get 10% on average with you hold jab and release only when MK slides away.

What you can also do is fall off stage as if you're aiming to edgeguard Sheik and let her go for the ledge, what you then do is shuttle loop to snap the ledge and throw Sheik off and quickly Bair her for a kill. Example is in the 2nd video link.

Video references: Here's what you shouldn't do against Sheik in a nutshell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf-U2_3AEss

What you should do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF1sh9GlsxQ

Combo's that work on Sheik: http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-combo-compendium.405507/

 

[warionumbah2]

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/v/20219865?t=55m50s

http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/v/20219865?t=1h47m21s

Highly recommend watching these sets, Tyrant displayes how useful our frame 4 dair can be aagainst sheiks obnoxious 50/50 set ups.

 

[Twisted_Jokerr]

The links lead to GGxrd.

 

[Gemba Board]

Alright, what are we doing about SHing sheiks on the neutral? I know we can jump cancel usmash when we dash in, but that's too unsafe. And most of our aerials lose to her sh fair. Do we dash in shield? I know fair isn't safe if she lands point blank on the shield so maybe we do that to score a grab or oos shuttle loop? I haven't tried any of this in a match yet, I'm theory crafting. What do you guys do against this? Sh spam deals with DA and DG surprisingly well.

 

[Steelballray]

I'm positive MK can beat SH fair with PSOS F-tilt.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I come from the Ike boards and I feel the matchup is beyond treacherous for us. I'm looking for a secondary mainly to counter Sheik, and so far I've considered Mario, Cloud, and Sonic. One of the Sonic mains referred me to the Meta-Knight boards for this counter, and I'm wondering if it's worth it.

I don't generally do very well using light, fast characters. But given how stupid good Sheik's frame data is, coupled with my desire to win a major this year, I'm looking at MK as a possibility.

 

[Amadeus9]

If you're looking for a secondary for sheik, Metaknight isn't it. Cloud and Sonic can both give us a hard time though, if they're what you want to use to counter sheik (which they aren't counters, literally nothing in this game counters sheik).

 

[warionumbah2]

That Sonic main lied to your face. A Sheik counter doesn't exist, she has no legitimate weakness to exploit.