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Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion 13 | Olimar

Katakiri

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Welcome to our Olimar match-up discussion! :4metaknight:


"This is a large-bodied, flying organism... If I can land a large number of Pikmin on it, they may be able to ground it. And then, once it's down, it will feel my sprouts' rage!"

Discuss character strengths, weaknesses, ground-game, air-game, and all things Rocket Man vs Bats here.

Got questions, opinions, or suggestions you want to share about other characters? Head over to the Meta Knight Match-Up Discussion Directory Thread or the Meta Knight Social/General Discussion; we're more than happy to help you.​

Rules, guidelines, and tips:
1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.03 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

Frame Data to expand your mind!:
|:4metaknight:Hit Frames|:4olimar:Hit Frames
Jab | 6, HYAYAYAYAYAYA, 30 | 4-5, 9-10
Dash Attack | 7-11 | 8-10, 11-14
F-Tilt | 6, 12, 17 | 15
U-Tilt | 8-10, 8-14, 11-14 | 6-17, 18
D-Tilt | 3-4 | 6-12
Side Smash | 24 | 11-??
Up Smash | 8, 12, 17 | 12-??
Down Smash | 4, 9 | 10-??
N-Air | 6-7, 8-20 | 7-22, 23-24
F-Air | 9, 12, 15 | 6-8
B-Air | 7-8, 13-14, 20-21 | 9-12
U-Air | 6 | 7-14
D-Air | 4 | 8, 8-14
Grab | 7-8 | 12-??
Dash Grab | 9-10 | 12-??
Pivot Grab | 9-10 | 12-??
*Info on the exact frames of Olimar's Pikmin-dependant Smashes & Grabs would be appreciated.
 

Bonk!

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Lol I can't help but feel like we already discussed this with Myran..

Approach from the air with D-airs and Tornado and tomahawks and stuff. That's all I got.
Long story short it's easy to combo and kill Olimar, but it can be hard to START a combo because of his wall and decent frame data.
It feels like 50:50 to me, maybe slightly in Olimar's favor.
 

warionumbah2

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I'll wait for an Olimar main to actually you know provide a write up, in the thread where he invaded he didn't bring up many points or countered the ones Ito and Katakiri brought up. There was no discussion and it was all pointless tbh.

[60:40]Slight advantage to MK, i don't see how we lose to a character we can camp/time out. Its either even or in our favour(not this MU i mean others that fall into this category). But im surrounded by MKs that fight with 'honor' and refuse to camp people who main slugs(seriously Luigi is slow af yet we don't camp him, unless your Ito level good just camp and lame your way to victory). smh

Up throw killing pikman is overrated, it gives MK a solid combo window that's it . If oli hits you away he gets his pikman back, it turns things 50/50 one hit results a combo you'll be lucky to keep the momentum after finishing a combo before Oli plucks his pikman.
 
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Bonk!

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I've been trying to change my play style to be more like Ito's campy style with walking and all that and it's seriously paying off. He's doing such a great job at showing us how MK should be played in Smash 4.
 

Ulevo

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There are a couple of distinct differences between these two characters and their options within the given match up. For one, if Olimar takes a lead, while it is difficult to take it back, it certainly is not impossible. If Meta Knight takes the lead, I think Olimar struggles more to regain control. Secondly, Olimar is very easy to abuse off stage with Meta Knight. There is also the fact that Meta Knight excels on a lot more stages than Olimar does, and it is much easier to counter pick Olimar than the other way around. I feel like this match up is likely 5:5 - 6:4 in Meta Knight's favor. I will say however that I have never fought a competent Olimar, this is mere theory from watching matches.

@ Myran Myran @Dabuz
 

Myran

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For the sake on not sounding foolish I'm not gonna go into the details about MK really, I'm going to present the info about Olimar. I'll leave it to you guys to take what I said, and let me know how you think it should go.

Alright so I'll do my best to breakdown why I believe Olimar wins this MU, not saying it's by a huge margin, but I'd say it's at least 6-4 Olimar's favor.

First off Olimar can wrack up damage much faster then Meta Knight. He can get upwards of 60% from one dthrow combo just by sticking a white on right before he grabs. He doesn't have to approach to wrack up damage, and his smashes can do ridiculous amounts of damage if they hit. A well spaced uncharged dsmash can do 26% with a purple and yellow due to the ability for both of the Pikmin to hit at the same time. His purple fsmash which is safe on shield can do 20% on the sweet spot, and his throws almost always lead to follow ups. A white can do 40% if tacked on at 0% and left untouched. Most of the tools I listed either out range MK or are safe on shield as well.

Next let's discuss kill power, I can guarantee you that Olimar has more kill power. Blue uthrow can kill around 120 on the ground with rage, and forward and back throw can kill if near the ledge as well. Olimar's fsmash with a purple is the 8th strongest in the game, whereas MK's is 13th. His bair, uair, and dair are all kill moves as well, and bair is even safe on shield when retreating with purple. His jab leads into grab at most percents, his dtilt can lead into fsmash, and his usmash can punished missed techs from the jab.

Next is Olimar's recovery/landing tools. I'll admit Olimar is definitely not the strongest when it comes to landing, but he does have a few tools to circumvent his flaws. First off is whistle, this has super armor for 7 frames, and comes out on frame 6. He also has b-reverse Pikmin pluck which he can use to switch up his momentum when drifting one direction. Next is his Up-B, and this tool is a solid choice to bait out an attack from the opponent by hovering above them. Olimar's Up-B can be canceled with any aerial, and after said aerial ends he goes into free fall. More times than not though the Olimar can land on the ground with a fast fall nair to keep himself safe. Up-B gives Olimar quite a bit of control while in the air, and he can use it to pop right out of the range of an attack, allowing him to immediately follow up with a nair. Lastly the two big aerials that really assist him when landing on stage are his dair (best used with a yellow for extra range) and his nair. The yellow dair has a long enough hitbox that it is able to hit most character before their attack reaches Olimar. His nair is the more consistent option to trade in the air due to it's hitbox being all around Olimar and the multihit properties.

Now to get into the finer details that make a big difference overall. So Olimar's Pikmin have the same priority as projectiles which means they will always lose a trade and clank. Normally you would think well I can just beat all of Olimar's attacks, but if an attack hit's another Pikmin before it hit's the current attack it will actually lose the trade to the Pikmin. To give an example say you came at me with a nair when I was charging fsmash. Since standard aerials cannot clank you will just hit my fsmash negating my hitbox and keep going to hit Olimar. If you nair with a Pikmin on you hitting the Pikmin first my fsmash will then beat your nair. It is a way for Olimar to creat a sort of artificial priority. Another benefit of the opponent hitting Pikmin is hitlag. Whenever you attack a Pikmin on you or when they're desycned it causes you to experience extra hitlag. This could make a fast move like dtilt which may normally be one of your safer tools become punishable far easier due to the extra frames your character is stuck there. These are the two biggest tools Olimar has to even up himself to characters with standard priority and faster attacks. Finally his dsmash can clip under the ledges of stages, and even a bit in front of them. This means he can safely stand on stage near the ledge with dsmash to get free edge guards.

Overall I don't doubt that Meta Knight can do some serious damage to Olimar once he gets in, but Olimar can wrack up damage much faster and from afar. He has more brute force with purples, and a kill throw with a ridiculous pivot grab. So I'd say if the Olimar can put up his walling game (which all of them should be able to do) MK in theory should not win this MU.
 

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For the sake on not sounding foolish I'm not gonna go into the details about MK really, I'm going to present the info about Olimar. I'll leave it to you guys to take what I said, and let me know how you think it should go.

Alright so I'll do my best to breakdown why I believe Olimar wins this MU, not saying it's by a huge margin, but I'd say it's at least 6-4 Olimar's favor.

First off Olimar can wrack up damage much faster then Meta Knight. He can get upwards of 60% from one dthrow combo just by sticking a white on right before he grabs. He doesn't have to approach to wrack up damage, and his smashes can do ridiculous amounts of damage if they hit. A well spaced uncharged dsmash can do 26% with a purple and yellow due to the ability for both of the Pikmin to hit at the same time. His purple fsmash which is safe on shield can do 20% on the sweet spot, and his throws almost always lead to follow ups. A white can do 40% if tacked on at 0% and left untouched. Most of the tools I listed either out range MK or are safe on shield as well.

Next let's discuss kill power, I can guarantee you that Olimar has more kill power. Blue uthrow can kill around 120 on the ground with rage, and forward and back throw can kill if near the ledge as well. Olimar's fsmash with a purple is the 8th strongest in the game, whereas MK's is 13th. His bair, uair, and dair are all kill moves as well, and bair is even safe on shield when retreating with purple. His jab leads into grab at most percents, his dtilt can lead into fsmash, and his usmash can punished missed techs from the jab.

Next is Olimar's recovery/landing tools. I'll admit Olimar is definitely not the strongest when it comes to landing, but he does have a few tools to circumvent his flaws. First off is whistle, this has super armor for 7 frames, and comes out on frame 6. He also has b-reverse Pikmin pluck which he can use to switch up his momentum when drifting one direction. Next is his Up-B, and this tool is a solid choice to bait out an attack from the opponent by hovering above them. Olimar's Up-B can be canceled with any aerial, and after said aerial ends he goes into free fall. More times than not though the Olimar can land on the ground with a fast fall nair to keep himself safe. Up-B gives Olimar quite a bit of control while in the air, and he can use it to pop right out of the range of an attack, allowing him to immediately follow up with a nair. Lastly the two big aerials that really assist him when landing on stage are his dair (best used with a yellow for extra range) and his nair. The yellow dair has a long enough hitbox that it is able to hit most character before their attack reaches Olimar. His nair is the more consistent option to trade in the air due to it's hitbox being all around Olimar and the multihit properties.

Now to get into the finer details that make a big difference overall. So Olimar's Pikmin have the same priority as projectiles which means they will always lose a trade and clank. Normally you would think well I can just beat all of Olimar's attacks, but if an attack hit's another Pikmin before it hit's the current attack it will actually lose the trade to the Pikmin. To give an example say you came at me with a nair when I was charging fsmash. Since standard aerials cannot clank you will just hit my fsmash negating my hitbox and keep going to hit Olimar. If you nair with a Pikmin on you hitting the Pikmin first my fsmash will then beat your nair. It is a way for Olimar to creat a sort of artificial priority. Another benefit of the opponent hitting Pikmin is hitlag. Whenever you attack a Pikmin on you or when they're desycned it causes you to experience extra hitlag. This could make a fast move like dtilt which may normally be one of your safer tools become punishable far easier due to the extra frames your character is stuck there. These are the two biggest tools Olimar has to even up himself to characters with standard priority and faster attacks. Finally his dsmash can clip under the ledges of stages, and even a bit in front of them. This means he can safely stand on stage near the ledge with dsmash to get free edge guards.

Overall I don't doubt that Meta Knight can do some serious damage to Olimar once he gets in, but Olimar can wrack up damage much faster and from afar. He has more brute force with purples, and a kill throw with a ridiculous pivot grab. So I'd say if the Olimar can put up his walling game (which all of them should be able to do) MK in theory should not win this MU.
Regarding kill power, I do not know the numbers. I would have to test. But I am willing to wager Meta Knight probably kills Olimar from three separate moves from about 15-30%. Disregarding his instant kill, he probably kills him off of bread and butter stuff around 70-90%. And these are moves that pose no risk to Meta Knight to use. Olimar may or may not have more numerical kill power, but I highly doubt he has more practical kill power. The fact that much of the kill potential relies on the Purple Pikmin, which is telegraphed, makes it even less reliable by comparison.

I want your opinion on how Olimar manages to take the game back if Meta Knight should ever secure a lead. This is one problem I see Olimar has, and it is especially bad versus Meta Knight. Also, where would you take Meta Knight, stage wise game 1? Counter pick?
 

Myran

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Regarding kill power, I do not know the numbers. I would have to test. But I am willing to wager Meta Knight probably kills Olimar from three separate moves from about 15-30%. Disregarding his instant kill, he probably kills him off of bread and butter stuff around 70-90%. And these are moves that pose no risk to Meta Knight to use. Olimar may or may not have more numerical kill power, but I highly doubt he has more practical kill power. The fact that much of the kill potential relies on the Purple Pikmin, which is telegraphed, makes it even less reliable by comparison.

I want your opinion on how Olimar manages to take the game back if Meta Knight should ever secure a lead. This is one problem I see Olimar has, and it is especially bad versus Meta Knight. Also, where would you take Meta Knight, stage wise game 1? Counter pick?
Well you may think purples are telegraphed, but Olimar is quite strong at forcing characters into frame traps through multiple Pikmin hitboxes. So I wouldn't count out a good Olimar hitting you with purples. As for taking the % lead back, I'd say it can depend on the stage. Like if you take me somewhere like battlefield or halberd where the stage isn't super big I can catch you much easier if I decide to go aggressive, use purples to cover my areas of approach that may be exposed. Also I could just stay back and chuck Pikmin at you to slowly wrack up percent, then if I notice you slacking slightly in your movement capitalize on your hitlag from getting a Pikmin off. As for stage choice I'd probably prefer battlefield, siege, maybe lylat, and fd. FD is a bit big, but no platforms can be nice at times. I'd probably try to stage strike you to BF game one.

Also what are these moves to kill at 15-30% that you speak of?
 
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Ulevo

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Well you may think purples are telegraphed, but Olimar is quite strong at forcing characters into frame traps through multiple Pikmin hitboxes. So I wouldn't count out a good Olimar hitting you with purples. As for taking the % lead back, I'd say it can depend on the stage. Like if you take me somewhere like battlefield or halberd where the stage isn't super big I can catch you much easier if I decide to go aggressive, use purples to cover my areas of approach that may be exposed. Also I could just stay back and chuck Pikmin at you to slowly wrack up percent, then if I notice you slacking slightly in your movement capitalize on your hitlag from getting a Pikmin off. As for stage choice I'd probably prefer battlefield, siege, maybe lylat, and fd. FD is a bit big, but no platforms can be nice at times. I'd probably try to stage strike you to BF game one.

Also what are these moves to kill at 15-30% that you speak of?
It is worth noting that Meta Knight has an easy time coping with a lot of these advantages Olimar normally has on other characters thanks to his five mid air jumps. It is much harder to set up frame traps when Meta Knight can just jump away on a whim.

And forward throw, down throw, and dash attack. Probably up tilt as well, though that is rather niche and unreliable. We could probably do it on stray up airs if you're in the air or on a platform too for whatever reason.
 

Myran

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It is worth noting that Meta Knight has an easy time coping with a lot of these advantages Olimar normally has on other characters thanks to his five mid air jumps. It is much harder to set up frame traps when Meta Knight can just jump away on a whim.

And forward throw, down throw, and dash attack. Probably up tilt as well, though that is rather niche and unreliable. We could probably do it on stray up airs if you're in the air or on a platform too for whatever reason.
You have to grab me for the throws to do something, all comes down to if you can get it. As for dash attack I can whistle and get a free punish. The jumps could be an issue, but you have to come down at some point.
 
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Ulevo

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You have to grab me for the throws to do something, all comes down to if you can get it. As for dash attack I can whistle and get a free punish. The jumps could be an issue, but you have to come down at some point.
If you mean you can whistle through the dash attack, sure. If you can react to it. It's a frame 7 dash attack that travels the length of his roll almost instantly. If you mean you can whistle after I've landed the dash attack, you can't. I would also like to mention we have Dimensional Cape, which is largely invincible throughout the entirety of its duration, even after we appear. And we can auto cancel it. We have to descend sometime, but we basically decide when that happens, and its not like Olimar has the options to punish us when we do, the way say Captain Falcon would.
 

Qazoo306

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Also what are these moves to kill at 15-30% that you speak of?
Dash attack, farward throw and down throw all lead into up air strings that combo into Shuttle Loop for a KO. Up air also combos into footstool jumps which sets up for Up air strings. Idk the exact percentages all of these tools work, but because of Olimar's light weight, I'd imagine the combo would start at 15-30%. One laggy move early game and MK can easily get a stock lead.
 

Myran

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If you mean you can whistle through the dash attack, sure. If you can react to it. It's a frame 7 dash attack that travels the length of his roll almost instantly. If you mean you can whistle after I've landed the dash attack, you can't. I would also like to mention we have Dimensional Cape, which is largely invincible throughout the entirety of its duration, even after we appear. And we can auto cancel it. We have to descend sometime, but we basically decide when that happens, and its not like Olimar has the options to punish us when we do, the way say Captain Falcon would.
Let's assume I can react to dash attack.
 

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Let's assume I can react to dash attack.
Don't even start with that word. Average human reaction time is 16 frames or 265 milliseconds. Your average reaction time would need to be less than half the human average to reach to MK's Dash Attack. http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime My fastest is 197 ms or about 11 frames which still isn't even close to 7 frames.

You can "predict" MK's Dash Attack, not react.

Don't discount just how hard it is to keep MK out, getting in is what this character excels at. I know Olimar's a defensive character but I also know his wall is far from perfect and MK has the tools to slip through the cracks. MK's Running Speed & Air Speed were actually increased from Brawl as well as his fall speed being changed to fast-faller status, the 12th fastest faller in fact. MK's mobility in this game is in the same league as say Fox, Falcon, Sheik, & ZSS; it's part of the reason we Meta Knights compare him to Falcon since the similarity in play-style and tools is pretty obvious. In fact Falcon's Dash Attack and Dash Grab have the exact same properties: Both Dash Attacks come out frame 7, they cross-up on shield, they're largely disjointed in the front, and they pop the opponent into the air for true combos while both of their Dash grabs travel far, carry their momentum into a slide while they're holding their foe, and can slide off-stage into an auto-grab release for a gimping opportunity via aerial or footstool. The main difference in their Dash Attack is that MK's has less ending lag. ZSS has the same Dash Attack as MK & Falcon, but again MK has less ending lag. Tack on the fact that it, unlike Yoshi's or Rosalina's Dash Attack, sets up for combos until well over 100% damage and it is no stretch to say that MK has the best Dash Attack in the game bar none.

Even with a Pikmin attached to MK, Olimar's F-Smash at best clanks with Meta Knight's Dash Attack and I'll probably just throw out another one immediately or tap my Frame 3 D-Tilt. To keep MK out, Olimar has to predict perfectly. He needs to shield or grab his Dash Attacks, attack or grab his Dash Grab, and predict his tomohawk punishes (being a fast faller with 6 jumps makes it that much harder for Olimar or any character to avoid.) It's a guessing game and MK gets at least 25% + stage control every time he guesses right while Olimar more or less just resets until he can KO. If Olimar whiffs a move predicting MK to move, that's a punish if the MK knows what Olimar's lag frames look like. He's no Brawlimar, those lag gaps are real. If MK guesses right 5 times, that's probably Olimar's stock gone; it's the same for MK too but MK's momentum advantage state is notably more dangerous than Olimar's in this MU and that's a lot of how MK wins this MU. The other part is the off-stage game but I don't think I need to into much detail there. MK's B-Air is a multi-hit strong KO move in this game so, uh, enjoy that.

Meta Knight is forced to play neutral like a low-tier (he's either in or out with almost no in-between) but he punishes like a top-tier.

If you nair with a Pikmin on you hitting the Pikmin first my fsmash will then beat your nair. It is a way for Olimar to creat a sort of artificial priority.
That's a good theory but if you checked the frame data in the OP, you'd notice MK's N-Air has two different hitboxes. The 1st would kill the Pikmin, the 2nd would block your Smash Attacks. I know this from experience. The same goes for Mach Tornado. Additionally, MK's not particularly threatened by a Pikmin latching on when he's platform camping, especially at high percents when it just means he can kill a Blue Pikmin or shield and kill a Purple Pikmin for free or predict your approach and throw out a Dash Attack, Dash Grab, or D-Air. At no point are thrown Pikmin going to do enough damage to matter if I'm camping or waiting nor is Olimar fast enough to run in and punish a FH N-Air (which I can mid-air jump out of) at the range MK will be sitting at. A Pikmin will be lucky to get 2% before MK disposes of it with FH N-Air and I'm always wary of white & purple pikmin in Olimar's line so I'll likely have a N-Air or shield ready for them. If MK's ever close enough to Olimar for Oli to punish attacking latched Pikmin, he should already have a move out coming for you. Again, MK is either in or out and he's very fast on the switch

Finally his dsmash can clip under the ledges of stages, and even a bit in front of them. This means he can safely stand on stage near the ledge with dsmash to get free edge guards.
Again, a nice theory but MK's Shuttle Loop deeply pokes through the stage and would either beat the Pikmin or hit Olimar. It's also not a good idea to charge Smash Attacks against MK...period. Dimensional Cape turns charged Smash Attack into a death wish and trust me, Cape Slash out-ranges Olimar's D-Smash. Its hitbox is kinda stupid tbh, it just hit everywhere around MK for no reason.

Anyway, other than that, I said my piece in the MU General thread. It's a fairly even MU on-stage so long as MK plays Olimars game because he plays it just as well. MK keeps this a 50:50 on-stage but the off-stage and juggle game is where it can shift into MK's favor and MK's KO moves aren't situational. A B-Air's a B-Air and it will KO at 90%, an Up-Smash is a Up-Smash, and F-Smash is a stock.
In my opinion it's 50:50 :4metaknight:at worst or 60:40:4metaknight: at best. Neither character should sleep on the other's defensive capabilities.
 

Myran

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You can "predict" MK's Dash Attack, not react.
Fine we can use the word predict if it makes you feel better. Point is that just because you have a frame 7 dash attack doesn't make it as strong as you say. I deal with Falcon's and ZSS' dash attacks fine as well. If you dash attack with a Pikmin on you I hope you like lag, because you just got some. Alternatively I could just armor through the dash attack and go from there. The fact that your character has to play neutral like a low tier is why I wouldn't say this MU is in your favor. There are plenty of high tier characters who can play neutral better and have just as destructive of a combo game. Now I'm not gonna detract from MK's ability to juggle, but you make it sound like after one dash attack my stock is gone. I can guarantee you it isn't that isn't always the case.

I wouldn't say how well you can out camp an Olimar either. Sure you can get the percent lead and run away, but your bound to slip up at one point and when that happens I can wrack damage up very fast. I have no problem throwing Pikmin at you even if it does slowly wrack up 1-2% at a time. Stage also has a bit of an impact since smaller stages or platforms can assist me in catching you.

As for my dsmash I don't think you understand how far under a yellow dsmash goes past the ledge. It's hitbox is 1.25x the normal Pikmin so it will reach pretty far down. Plus if I have released my smash it doesn't matter if I'm hit my attack keeps going so at most we'd trade or I'd be fine.

You say bair is a kill move, but you have to hit me with it. I can recover from the lower corner of any blastzone with my up-b so I can dip pretty far down to make sure you don't attack me. Say you wait for me to ride the wall and hit me? I just tech, and I'm back on stage and ready to fight again.

I'm fairly certain we can sling the what if scenarios back and forth, but I'd recommend on waiting to get a larger sample size of results before dictating anything. I guess if you wanna go by Ito's results against Rich and I'm Hip go right ahead, but East Coast Olimar's play different so what may work on them isn't guaranteed here. I stand by what I said in that Olimar can put up a good enough wall to keep MK out, and it may shift into your favor once you've started juggling but that happens in a lot of MU's.

If Ito or Katakiri or any of you MKs would like to play some wifi some time I'd be down. Obviously take wifi with a grain of salt, but it couldn't hurt to play each other to develop a better understanding of the MU.
 
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A smart MK would never go that deep to edgeguard Olimar unless they were confident in getting the kill with at least a stock lead. We may be one the best edgeguarders in the game, but that doesn't mean we're thirsty. We could simply wait for Olimar to force himself to fly to the ledge/stage and punish accordingly. The only option Olimar has out of his Up-b is attacking which will put him in free fall. Olimar is at MK's mercy if anything when recovering, just like R.O.B.

As long as we don't get sudden tunnelvision there shouldn't be any substantial problem when Olimar is offstage.

This was a really poopy MU to start so early imo. There's literally no videos out there of a competent MK and Olimar duking it out because both of them are so underplayed. We should be looking at sets of certain MUs and analyzing what both players did wrong. This would give us such a better understanding of how to handle situations.
 

Superbat

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Fine we can use the word predict if it makes you feel better. Point is that just because you have a frame 7 dash attack doesn't make it as strong as you say. I deal with Falcon's and ZSS' dash attacks fine as well. If you dash attack with a Pikmin on you I hope you like lag, because you just got some. Alternatively I could just armor through the dash attack and go from there. The fact that your character has to play neutral like a low tier is why I wouldn't say this MU is in your favor. There are plenty of high tier characters who can play neutral better and have just as destructive of a combo game. Now I'm not gonna detract from MK's ability to juggle, but you make it sound like after one dash attack my stock is gone. I can guarantee you it isn't that isn't always the case.

I wouldn't say how well you can out camp an Olimar either. Sure you can get the percent lead and run away, but your bound to slip up at one point and when that happens I can wrack damage up very fast. I have no problem throwing Pikmin at you even if it does slowly wrack up 1-2% at a time. Stage also has a bit of an impact since smaller stages or platforms can assist me in catching you.

As for my dsmash I don't think you understand how far under a yellow dsmash goes past the ledge. It's hitbox is 1.25x the normal Pikmin so it will reach pretty far down. Plus if I have released my smash it doesn't matter if I'm hit my attack keeps going so at most we'd trade or I'd be fine.

You say bair is a kill move, but you have to hit me with it. I can recover from the lower corner of any blastzone with my up-b so I can dip pretty far down to make sure you don't attack me. Say you wait for me to ride the wall and hit me? I just tech, and I'm back on stage and ready to fight again.

I'm fairly certain we can sling the what if scenarios back and forth, but I'd recommend on waiting to get a larger sample size of results before dictating anything. I guess if you wanna go by Ito's results against Rich and I'm Hip go right ahead, but East Coast Olimar's play different so what may work on them isn't guaranteed here. I stand by what I said in that Olimar can put up a good enough wall to keep MK out, and it may shift into your favor once you've started juggling but that happens in a lot of MU's.

If Ito or Katakiri or any of you MKs would like to play some wifi some time I'd be down. Obviously take wifi with a grain of salt, but it couldn't hurt to play each other to develop a better understanding of the MU.
Yeah just play a game with Ito or katakiri and see how it goes. (If it could be recorded it would be godlike) This discussion prolly won't come to an end without a good ol
brawl.
 
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Bonk!

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That would be great. If you need to send me the replay I can upload it for you in 720p 60fps @ Myran Myran [/USER] @ ItoI6 ItoI6 @ Katakiri Katakiri @Slither2Hunter , etc.

Also http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash Ito is in the bracket and I think some Olimars are in there too. Maybe we'll see something.

...I love how the stream went down as soon as I said that... Give it a second.
 
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warionumbah2

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Honestly asking to play this MU is like asking to get camped for 8mins, its not a MU you play in friendlies nor in general unless there's money on the line.

"Hey guys mind playing against my character that creates the most boring sleep inducing MU in the game? You get nothing out of it other than MU stuff thats already been discussed."

Would not at all be shocked if the MKs you tagged thought "**** that".
 

ItoI6

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against olimar i feel fastfall to roll as an approach is pretty effective.

he also has some trouble killing without smashes and his upair so if you run to platforms, shield and jump away he cant really close it out because of his low mobility. dont panic from the big damage low% combos and just look out for his kill options and itll be very dangerous for him for a long time.
 

Qazoo306

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But doesn't that only kill at a reasonable percent with Blue Pikmin? So would it be a a stretch to say that it isn't any more viable of a kill option than Metaknight's Up Throw?
 

Ulevo

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But doesn't that only kill at a reasonable percent with Blue Pikmin? So would it be a a stretch to say that it isn't any more viable of a kill option than Metaknight's Up Throw?
Meta Knight's up throw is not a standard kill throw. It is basically your go-to option if you ever fail to kill your opponent with a basic combo past 130ish % or so if you cannot land other options, and it can kill really early on certain stages, but on flat surfaces it is sub par.
 

Qazoo306

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Meta Knight's up throw is not a standard kill throw. It is basically your go-to option if you ever fail to kill your opponent with a basic combo past 130ish % or so if you cannot land other options, and it can kill really early on certain stages, but on flat surfaces it is sub par.
That's what I'm saying. Without a blue Pikmin, it's about as useful as MK's up throw, which is to say, not super good.
 

Myran

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That's what I'm saying. Without a blue Pikmin, it's about as useful as MK's up throw, which is to say, not super good.
Any Olimar above intermediate level will be managing his Pikmin to be grabbing with blues for a kill. It isn't hard to do.
 
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