Matchup Discussion

[n00b]

UPDATED 11/01/14

Some of the threads are getting a little cluttered with questions about how to fight certain characters and getting a little off topic, so let's use this thread for matchup questions and answers.

If you have trouble in certain matchups, give us footage or whatever you think is problematic, and we'll try to share our experience/strategies to help you out. If you have a solid grasp on what works against certain characters too, please feel free to chime in.

Every once in a while I'll update the OP with categorized info, possibly make a guide that can be updated (or crowd-edited in a google doc or something) just so we have more organized resources here.


Bowser

Bowser Jr.

Captain Falcon

Charizard

Dark Pit

Diddy Kong

Donkey Kong

Dr. Mario

Duck Hunt

Falco

Fox

Ganondorf

Greninja

Ike

So, Ike can short hop nair, and this covers a lot of space and if this hits you, it can set up for Ike gimmicks. Also watch out for rolling too much since Ike is one of the best at punishing with up smash (covers both sides rather than one from f-smash).

Ike can not really go deep for edge guarding so always recover low. Watch out for ledge drop bair and run off fair or nair as these are his main edge guards.

So always spam missiles. This covers a lot of his approaches. He has to jump or roll and his roll isn't the best. Missiles cover his side b and all ground approaches though.

Ikes mainly play mind games and they may fake out approaches so watch out for that. One notable thing to mention is that if you get hit high, good Ikes will simply jump and fast fall over and over and essentially shark from under you so go for ledge. This gimmick can be tricky at times since they don't over commit, and you are a sitting duck in the air. Up air is scary. This juggles you and has kill potential.

Alternatively, you can juggle Ike easily, though this is a universal fact for all matchups versus Ike. Your up air is sooooooo good here, it isn't fair.

Maintain consistent pressure with tilts and missiles and zair. Always screw with Ike's momentum because an Ike with momentum messes with your head and puts too much fear in you, but don't be brash because Ike punishes too offensive play. If you can keep ike from getting momentum, then you will be able to whittle him enough that he gets impatient and takes huge risks whereas you can pick off a kill with charged shot or get a grab, and edge guard.

One thing to mention is that Ike has terrible horizontal recovery when low and if you can nair him when he is over the ledge, he is most likely a goner.

Jigglypuff

King Dedede

Kirby

Link

Little Mac

Anyway, in my limited experience playing against Mac, the most basic thing I've found works is to just pressure him with projectiles to force an engage, and then try to block it and grab him out of it. Some of his engages (I don't know the exact moves, I've never actually played him) can actually just be stopped by grabbing him out of the attack. As soon as you have him, just try to throw him off the stage and keep him there, his recovery is so bad that if you manage to attack him after he double jumps, he's usually pretty much dead.

If he's comboing or juggling you, remember that we have vectoring instead of DI now, so you can actually steer away from him to get out of his stuff, then just try to go for the ledge and shoot a few projectiles at him to get him a bit closer to center stage so you can get back up there. Mac's not great at playing around the edges, so don't go towards him when he goes back to center stage, as he'll be at an advantage there. This also means that you shouldn't approach a grounded Mac from the air, just because he's bad in the air doesn't mean he's bad anti-air.

If you're fearing his KO punch, wait about 6 seconds. After this window of time, any damage he takes will take his KO punch away.

Lucario

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c1no8lainkxo2z9/Smash 4 Lucario chart.xlsx?dl=

In Smash 4 there is a 9% priority rule. If something does 9% more it will outprioritize the other move.

With that in mind a Lucario at:

• 32% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere will beat your regular Missile (5%).
• 88% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere will beat your Super Missile (10%).
• 8% with a fresh fully charged Aura Sphere beats your uncharged Charge Shot (3%).
• We will never beat a fully charge Charge Shot unless you horribly stale it :x

We've lost a lot of Air options from the transition from Brawl and gained grab combos and Aura is even more insane. Once we get strong enough to camp it is going to be difficult to approach us.

Misc. stuffs.

• Lucario's Force Palm is really good at punishing anything laggy such as landings and your roll and it grows in size when we take damage. Since Samus is floaty we can punish landing with our FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, Aura Sphere, etc. fairly well. Force Palm can also be used to cancel projectiles and hit you at the same time if spaced right.
  
• At the center of an Omega stage in training mode a Lucario's FSmash kills when both characters are at 89% with no DI. Both hits of USmash at 92%. DSmash and BAir at 104%. Fully Charged Aura Sphere at 129%. Sweetspot UTilt at 147%. Start of UAir at 110%. Double Team at 100%.
  
• The biggest thing we Lucarios probably have to worry about is that 26% damage fully charged Charge Shot of yours. Otherwise... it'll be really hard to approach us on the ground. You can harass us below us if you space UAir properly and to a lesser extent your Screw Attack, but that's pretty darn risky.
• If the Lucario knows what they are doing watch out for pivots. For some reason Lucario's horizontal grab distance is like 2-3 times greater than his regular grab range (lol Sakurai).
  
• As mentioned before Lucario's UTilt at low % leads to a number of combos depending on if it is sweetspotted or not.
• So in short keep us off the ground and don't let us harass you with Aura Sphere. Don't be grabbing the ledge twice because at higher percents Aura Sphere WILL hit you.
• We need to do more research, but our Aura Sphere charge can lead to a number of shinanegans. Good Lucarios will master reversing their Aura Sphere in the air, so watch out for that.
  
• We're short, so hitting and spacing against us with ZAir will be tricky.

I personally feel this matchup is in Lucario's favor, but I need to do more research.

Lucina

Luigi

Mario

Marth

Mega Man

Meta Knight

Mewtwo

Mii Fighters

Mr. Game & Watch

Ness

Olimar

Pac-Man

Palutena

Peach

Pikachu

Pit

R.O.B.

Robin

Rosalina & Luma

Against Rosalina, you have to headshot her. If they stay grounded, you just have to shorthop and either charge shot or heavy missile (shoot slightly after apex of shorthop for headshot). Now the problem is when they're jumping or crouching. When jumping, you can still use Charge shot and tag her at the toes, for crouching, i'd suggest zair. Zair is also one of your best tools in this one.

As for downb, shoot a full jump slow missle, then short hop charge blast if you see them down b to punish.

I feel like against rosaline, you hqve to have the charged shot ready to punish with, so absolutely do charge it. I wouldn't neglect samus' s projectiles, even if rosalina can nullify them for the sole fact that this gives us some sort of control over our opponents head. I believe we need this as this prevents overly aggresive play from rosalina, and may pot3ntially give us the time we need to chargeup if they waste time using down-b.

I do not agree that separating the two are that important. And I also disagree with how you say we should do it. In fast, that should not even be a focus in this match up. Luma can come back to rosalina so easy, that splitting them up won't even matter if they voluntarily do so on their own. And even if we wanted to, d-smash is pretty bad in this game, not to mention the lag if we m7ss and the difficulty to hit with it in the first pkace. Up b needs to be set up, so that is a tough option. Up air also requires set up, so difficult option.

I believe that rosalina cannot set up luma in a way that will hurt us enough that we can waste no time. In fact, rosalina should be careful to even set up luma. If luma is too far and we get a grab, we combo off of down throw with fair or up air. If we approach aerially and she sends out luma prematurely, then we get an easy punish. If she simply waits, we chsrge up and missile camp. Luma isn't as good as we might think, but we shouldn't get careless. Star bits can be seen coming, and can be punishable if we are too close to them. Luma shot has lag which we can capitalize on. Calling luma back also takes time.

Samus

Sheik

Sheki isn't too bad, but she is hard. We can take more hits than she can so our advantage lies there. We have the option to camp, and we have a combo off of d-thrown. If we get the grabs which we are supposed to get, then all is well. Otherwise, we can simply tilt and play keep away. We may get grabbed, but just move for the ledge and we will be fine. Dont jump from the ledge. Cover Sheiks landings with projectiles and fire charged shots liberally, but don't be obvious. Maintain projectile pressure on landings and recoveries. Do not overcommit to an up-b kill since you are likely to miss and get punished. Dont fear needles if you are trading projectiles. Punish needles with charged shot if you canread the throw. F tilt is good, so spam it if sheik is close. Use it to cover ground approaches if you don't want t o whiff a grab. Aerial sheik approaches can be covered with retreating aerials or pivot grabs.

WhEn sheik is at ledge, if you cant comfortable stand your ground at ledge, just run and spam missiles. U tilt covers ledge hop and ledge jump. Reaction is what you have to do at ledge, or you can simply spam u tilt qnd hope they get hit... the match up shouldn't be too hard if you play patient and punish with charged shot. Charged shot is your main kill move here.

The matchup isn't as skewed as 1-9 for samus. I believe samus can handle sheik much better than the rest of the cast.

Shulk

I do have some word of advice for shulk, though not greninja, as I haven't played against him as much. You want to pressure them into jumping. Now key point is to not let them nair you. They recover fast from nair and can probably jab you before you can shield grab. And don't think about punishing them if they know how to nair and land behind you. So you have to meet them in air and catch them with fair. Also for homing missiles, you can cancel into them from any dash. The best thing you can do is change up dashing forward or backward homing missiles, keeping somewhat mobile. Even if they counter, you can just punish with charge shot. Also incorporate zairs as that's your best aerial. Also, constantly find moments to charge up, you can always grab out of charge (R+A or L) or jump (R+Jump) if they're jumping in on you to meet them with fair.

Also if the person is in speed mode, the thing they're going for the most are grabs, so counter this with shorthop dair, or have a missile out before they fully change Monado arts.

Sonic

Toon Link

Villager

Wario

Wii Fit Trainer

Yoshi

With Yoshi, this dude is deceptively fast, and all his moves put you at disadvantage. You're launched high up and Yoshi is eager to KO via double jump uair or catching you with a fair spike. He can also run, sh air dodge pretty well and he's somehow safe after his aerials from a certain height. He doesn't have good grab or roll options though, and you can kind of outspace him for the most part. But if he gets his game going, just try to get to the ledge — DO NOT TRADE air to air, it's never in your favor. He's heavy too, and his recovery is hard to predict if they're smart, so KOing is a problem. Try to rack up damage as much as you can and go for charge shot/fsmash KOs. He's a monster in the air.

Zelda

Zero Suit Samus

 

[-Jax]

Are we gonna discuss the match-ups one by one? Or more of them simultaneously?

Anyway, in my limited experience playing against Mac, the most basic thing I've found works is to just pressure him with projectiles to force an engage, and then try to block it and grab him out of it. Some of his engages (I don't know the exact moves, I've never actually played him) can actually just be stopped by grabbing him out of the attack. As soon as you have him, just try to throw him off the stage and keep him there, his recovery is so bad that if you manage to attack him after he double jumps, he's usually pretty much dead.

If he's comboing or juggling you, remember that we have vectoring instead of DI now, so you can actually steer away from him to get out of his stuff, then just try to go for the ledge and shoot a few projectiles at him to get him a bit closer to center stage so you can get back up there. Mac's not great at playing around the edges, so don't go towards him when he goes back to center stage, as he'll be at an advantage there. This also means that you shouldn't approach a grounded Mac from the air, just because he's bad in the air doesn't mean he's bad anti-air.

If you're fearing his KO punch, wait about 6 seconds. After this window of time, any damage he takes will take his KO punch away.

 

[n00b]

Maybe we can do something like whoever needs help can ask in here, and then once we've played long enough we can start compiling notes for the cast.

 

[Otterz]

I've been having trouble against Ike, I'm fairly new to competitive (definitely not new to Smash) so any tips would be helpful.

 

[darknight550]

Samus main since melee here, and I seem to be having trouble against Rosalina. with her Luma blocking projectiles, and her DownB absorbing anything that passes through the wall it is very hard to camp against her, and even Samus' approach is limited due to Rosalina's great juggling. Rosalina seems very favorable in this matchup. Suggestions?

 

[Primer TMT]

Samus main since melee here, and I seem to be having trouble against Rosalina. with her Luma blocking projectiles, and her DownB absorbing anything that passes through the wall it is very hard to camp against her, and even Samus' approach is limited due to Rosalina's great juggling. Rosalina seems very favorable in this matchup. Suggestions?

i have problems with rosalina too

 

[Joanny]

And so I do. I hate Rosalina players now. :I

I don't know if there is any known advises against Pikachu players, who can "zone" with neutral B and rush whenever they want.

 

[n00b]

I also have issues with Rosalina, I think Samus has difficulty with super disjointed hitboxes/things that outrange her, and "delayed" hitboxes (I get wrecked by Sheik's side B, duck hunt's projectiles, Bowser Jr projectiles that linger, etc.) I will try to find a Rosalina main to study the matchup after getting personally wrecked.

For people like Pikachu, I think it's an issue with small characters in general. His neutral B covers angles that put a stop to Samus for most of her favorable approaches (horizontal at ground/short hop height). It would be a bad idea to approach air-to-ground given Samus's floatiness and poor vertical aerial coverage, too. I'll also try to find a Pikachu main to discuss.

 

[Primer TMT]

I also have issues with Rosalina, I think Samus has difficulty with super disjointed hitboxes/things that outrange her, and "delayed" hitboxes (I get wrecked by Sheik's side B, duck hunt's projectiles, Bowser Jr projectiles that linger, etc.) I will try to find a Rosalina main to study the matchup after getting personally wrecked.

For people like Pikachu, I think it's an issue with small characters in general. His neutral B covers angles that put a stop to Samus for most of her favorable approaches (horizontal at ground/short hop height). It would be a bad idea to approach air-to-ground given Samus's floatiness and poor vertical aerial coverage, too. I'll also try to find a Pikachu main to discuss.

i hate rosalina players, because they are sooooo! gays! hit and run, that makes a bored battle! but. yes i played against really good rosalinas and im winning 70% aprox the time playing against rosalinas :3

 

[option.iv]

Against Rosalina, you have to headshot her. If they stay grounded, you just have to shorthop and either charge shot or heavy missile (shoot slightly after apex of shorthop for headshot). Now the problem is when they're jumping or crouching. When jumping, you can still use Charge shot and tag her at the toes, for crouching, i'd suggest zair. Zair is also one of your best tools in this one.

As for downb, shoot a full jump slow missle, then short hop charge blast if you see them down b to punish.

 

[-Jax]

i hate rosalina players, because they are sooooo! gays! hit and run, that makes a bored battle! but. yes i played against really good rosalinas and im winning 70% aprox the time playing against rosalinas :3

Teach us sensei! I also returned to this thread after getting wrecked by a Rosalina & Luma. I only managed to win once, and that was a sudden death.

These guys can stop anything we have to offer from long range, and in closerange I just feel like everything outranges or outspeeds us. The only times I was able to do anything was with grabs, lots and lots of zair and grabs...

A move to look out for while they do decide to approach is their dash attack. Luma extends in front of Rosalina in such a way that you can't grab them out of it, and the move is too long to spot-dodge. You can block it and punish with a grab, but this is easily read and countered by grabbing. More annoyingly (though the opposing player didn't do this), Rosalina and Luma have a technique where if you dash attack just before grabbing, Luma will do a dash attack while Rosalina grabs. This allows them to grab downed opponents. I haven't tested this, but I have a hunch that this approach stops blocking grabbing AND spotdodging as a response, though don't take my word on that as I haven't experienced or tested this. Could be that the Luma hit by itself is spot-dodgeable, and it's the Rosalina hit that lasts so long.

 

[Primer TMT]

Teach us sensei! I also returned to this thread after getting wrecked by a Rosalina & Luma. I only managed to win once, and that was a sudden death.

These guys can stop anything we have to offer from long range, and in closerange I just feel like everything outranges or outspeeds us. The only times I was able to do anything was with grabs, lots and lots of zair and grabs...

A move to look out for while they do decide to approach is their dash attack. Luma extends in front of Rosalina in such a way that you can't grab them out of it, and the move is too long to spot-dodge. You can block it and punish with a grab, but this is easily read and countered by grabbing. More annoyingly (though the opposing player didn't do this), Rosalina and Luma have a technique where if you dash attack just before grabbing, Luma will do a dash attack while Rosalina grabs. This allows them to grab downed opponents. I haven't tested this, but I have a hunch that this approach stops blocking grabbing AND spotdodging as a response, though don't take my word on that as I haven't experienced or tested this. Could be that the Luma hit by itself is spot-dodgeable, and it's the Rosalina hit that lasts so long.

The only and best way is..be very aggressive, don't worry if you eat atacks and your %increases needs a little of sacrifice, what i mean is, samus yes it's a projectile character but you can use she like a very aggressive character...i think the best attack of samus right now in the grounds dash attack, and in the air is Nair...i upload 4 videos today...watch them, and look how i play. If i play against a rosalina, i record it

 

[option.iv]

Sheik's side B

I too, have problems against this. Is there a way for us to punish this if shielded? Because she just bounces back to a seemingly safe position. I'm unable to test if there is landing lag from it. Samus' fastest horizontal move is charge shot, so maybe that'd work. Something like jump out of shield charge shot. Or if you don't have charge, maybe a zair. Anyone else have any answers for this one?

The only and best way is..be very aggressive, don't worry if you eat atacks and your %increases needs a little of sacrifice, what i mean is, samus yes it's a projectile character but you can use she like a very aggressive character...i think the best attack of samus right now in the grounds dash attack, and in the air is Nair...i upload 4 videos today...watch them, and look how i play. If i play against a rosalina, i record it

I'm sorry, but I checked some of your videos on the video thread. IMO that's not how you play Samus. You're constantly going for nairs and bairs as you land, not spacing them. No pivot ftilts, no shield-jump canceling charge, no zairs. And as for your philosophy on Rosalina, you don't want to trade hits like that. You're going to rack up more % than the opponent and that's never a good trade, unless you're going to kill.

Samus isn't a rushdown character, she is a space control character. Yeah you can play her as a rushdown, but you are going to get much much better results playing the space-control/zoning game.

 

[Primer TMT]

A space-control/zoning game is really loooong! and if you think, lost of missile canceling, and zair has lag, poor projectile, and buffed attacks like Nair, Uar, Bair, UpB,Fsmash... all close distance attacks and why? because maybe she's now a great rushdown character

 

[option.iv]

The only and best way is..be very aggressive, don't worry if you eat atacks and your %increases needs a little of sacrifice, what i mean is, samus yes it's a projectile character but you can use she like a very aggressive character...i think the best attack of samus right now in the grounds dash attack, and in the air is Nair...i upload 4 videos today...watch them, and look how i play. If i play against a rosalina, i record it

You can still pivot or dash into homing missles to change up timing. Even without missle canceling, you still get a degree of space control with them. Zair recovers from landing faster than her other airs and you have to be aware of the position of the opponent to sweetspot it. Depending on when you zair, you can control which part of the area in front of you it hits.

And just because she has melee ranged attacks does NOT mean she's rushdown. If that were true, everyone is rushdown then. Nair is not buffed, it was nerfed. It's essentially a weaker bair with faster recovery. I'd rather have sex kick than it atm. Uair is just your run of the mill punishment tool or combo move. Upb got buffed because she was lacking in the launch department and wanted upb to be safer after landing it. Fsmash is not a stand out smash attack. There are a multitude of other chars with similar smashes. If you're killing people with Fsmash, the opponent isn't very good. I mean it's a slow move. She has to wind back and punch. It should be reserved for bad recovery punishes or if you're in the person's head and know exactly where they're rolling.

English may not be your first language, but I'm not faulting you for that. It's hard to take your word for things when your gameplay is not reactionary and more "feel" based. Also with how you don't explain any of your opinions. And I'm definitely not trying to offend you. I appreciate everyone's input, it's just I don't agree with your stance and am willing to explain myself why.

 

[Primer TMT]

Are you saying, all samus needs no play exactly the same way? you're wrong brother, if you think samus is better like you said, use in that way, but..Nair nerfed?! are you kidding, its really buffed, now cover both sides, its strong, and faster than the other pathetic Nair of brawl, and if everyone plays samus at distance well, they are in the past, samus can Follow Up, Uair with Up B she no more needs to be cowards at close distance, then..all the ranged and buffed attacks are in vain? im winning more than 80% of my fight just like i said and play, im not offended but you underestimate samus, so killing with Fsmash means..aren't good players? so you never died with Fsmashes? mmm..well im mexican so i have a a lot of errors xD but believe me, try to use samus in a different way and you will see.!

 

[-Jax]

Are you saying, all samus needs no play exactly the same way? you're wrong brother, if you think samus is better like you said, use in that way, but..Nair nerfed?! are you kidding, its really buffed, now cover both sides, its strong, and faster than the other pathetic Nair of brawl, and if everyone plays samus at distance well, they are in the past, samus can Follow Up, Uair with Up B she no more needs to be cowards at close distance, then..all the ranged and buffed attacks are in vain? im winning more than 80% of my fight just like i said and play, im not offended but you underestimate samus, so killing with Fsmash means..aren't good players? so you never died with Fsmashes? mmm..well im mexican so i have a a lot of errors xD but believe me, try to use samus in a different way and you will see.!

This really is a discussion for a different thread so we can keep this one clean, so let's leave it at this:

Yes, you are right, Samus has strong rushdown compared to brawl, yet you'll get more out of her playing her more defensively/control-oriented. Alternatively, there are a lot of characters that are better at rushdown than Samus, which pretty much outclass her in that department.

Rushdown is a viable way of playing her sure, but far from what players besides you have experienced as the optimal strategy. If it works for you, that's great, but there's better characters for that playstyle and you're holding yourself back by choosing Samus for it.

Can we get back to matchup discussions now?

 

[Primer TMT]

ok haha matchup vs sheik! what about that

 

[pinkdeaf1]

ok haha matchup vs sheik! what about that

Up-air from below beats out almost everything Sheik has, so Sheik in the air is no biggie.

I believe that in order to do this match-up well, we have to know how the Shiek will approach and punish, because Sheik has so many options.

1. Sheik on the ground: Whether she is going for a dash attack or baiting some unsafe ground attack or whatever, when Sheik is on the ground, I find, the best thing to do is go for a grab. This beats shielding, and maybe dash attack if we are fast enough, and whatever other ground attack Sheik has, but this fails against rolling. Since rolling became so very much faster, Sheik can roll behind us and the punish... But that is why we condition the Sheik to stay in Shield! We have spammable missiles which cover ground approaches if set up well enough, protecting us from rolling approaches or simply runing in. If Sheik just runs up and shields, we can run in and grab. If Shiek got hit by a missile, then hopefully the homing missiles' hitstun will be enough, but this is dependent on timing. If Sheik is hit by a power missile, then they will be knowcked away far and long enough that they can't punish a whiffed grab. But Sheik has an option that beats missiles to a degree - Short hop.

2. Shiek's short hop approach: while we shoot missiles in an attempt to wall out sheik, she can simply short hop over missiles if she feels comfortable enough to do so. But, with homing missiles, this gets trinky and risky for sheik, but Sheik isn't limited to short hops. She can also full hop! Woah! Who knew!

3. Sheik's full hop approach: So Sheik got fed up with playing defensively and wants to go IN! Now what. Missiles have lag substantial enough that we have to stop firing missiles when she gets close enough, but we should have stopped anyway since homing missiles can't cover above us as well when the enemy is closer. So... do we fair? Nair? What... can we do? We can bait an aerial and pivot grab... maybe. Or whatever. Once Sheik gets in, she is in and we need to do whatever necessary to dish out more damage than we take, and take a stock eventually, or reset a missile spamming situation. We just have to out-play sheik here as best as we can and it is here where we make it or break it.

Hmmm.... what else?

 

[Primer TMT]

Omg too much good info, today i played against a sheik, and if she grabs you, secure are like....40% DThrow-SH and Fair like 2 times and another one, and even at high% the sheik grab and Fair still Working, a little problem is...samus now have a little lag before touch the ground, so sheik can approach that and remains you in the air a bit of time, another good thing is her needles e.e really frustrating, and too fast! destroys missiles and hit us too.
Our advantages, a dash atack can kill and maybe is the best approaching ground attack because if it's sweetspoted send far away or a little to follow up Uair and if it's sourspotted, followUps a Utilt, or Utilt to a Dilt and a Fair or Uair, or Fair is really awesome, all hits make contact and sends the opponent away to a Zair..a lot of things! i think samus has the advantage in this matchUp, in smash attacks, air attacks, range, projectiles, ledge options, recovery, all, sheik only have more speed, but it's weaker..

To me... Samus 60 - Sheik 40

 

[AetherEch0s]

i've probably logged about 50 for glory matches and like 30-50 with friends matches as samus so far.
did well against:
dark pit (easy to punish shield orbitors when they get in the habit of using them, otherwise your projectile spam just beats his arrows, forcing him to approach. all of his smashes leave him wide open to punish, especially forward smash, his most favored one. predictable low recovery leaves him open for ff dair or bair) EDIT: I just got destroyed by a Dark Pit today. Lost 3 Samus games and 4 Link games against him. He literally dodged every projectile at a distance and then he was on top of me grabbing, up smashing and spamming side-b. Every time i baited a move he would hit me again before i had time to grab or punish at all. it was crazy. it feels like his running grab is really disjointed. like it would hit me from a fsmash distance away half the time. to make things worse the guy left before i could ever figure him out.
lucario (seems like you literally do everything he does but better. faster charge blast, better zoning with missiles, better air game, more reliable recovery, better priority on the ground. i haven't even noticed his aura helping him)
robin (same problem as lucario. you just outzone and range him and you hit better up close. your blast goes through his fire too)
marth and lucina (spam projectiles all day and they can't do anything about it. when they charge a forward smash on the edge just space a fair so the last hit hits them. easy game every time)
duck hunt (your projectiles are faster and easier to land than his. simple as that. sometimes you'll even knock his can right back in his face as soon as he kicks it out. up close his smashes take forever to start up and are easily punishable with grab or fsmash. offstage hes terribly easy to gimp, just walk off and ff bair or dair when hes flying back up)
luigi (can luigi even do anything this game?)
sonic (homing attack is a free shield+uair+upb, spindash is wide open for projectile spam)
bowser (can't even approach you)
ganondorf (see above)


hit and miss or had some difficulty with:
sheik (if they use their needles correctly its a hard match, otherwise its piss easy. you actually clash or win in trades up close and you win all air trades with proper spacing.)
little mac (sometimes they just know how to deal with projectile users)
dr mario (cape isn't even winning the match. he just has too much priority at close range)
greninja (if he gets you off the stage you have a very hard time getting back with his fsmash, shurikens and hydro pump gimp)
pikachu (if they're aggressive its easy, if not they mess up your projectile spam and its hard to approach. you have a hard time getting back on stage against him too)
rosalina (luma blocks your projectiles the entire game, even mid-air or when landing. sometimes you'll luck into some hitting but very rarely. you beat her up close though, so take it to her. if you kill luma shes pathetically easy for a few seconds though)
ness and villager (i think both could potentially beat samus but i haven't seen a good enough player. nobody has taken advantage of the energy shield or pocket and both are hard to get back on stage against if they even try.)

had extreme difficulty with:
yoshi (not sure why exactly. might have just been a very good player both times. seems like hes able to lob eggs faster than you can get projectiles out and up close he just shields everything and punish with fsmash or dtilt. i can't edgeguard him because of the invincibility on his double jump. haven't won a single match against a yoshi that i know of. i always have to switch to link to beat them)
shulk (has no trouble closing the distance and staying on you with jump and speed buffs. long disjointed hitboxes beat out most of your aerials and smashes. can't dash attack, spot dodge or even roll without taking a down smash. i was literally eating down smash all game. counter ruins any change of aerial follows ups like utilt or dash into uair into upb which is one of my main ways to deal damage early on. can't gimp his recovery because air slash.)
mario (everything dr mario does but faster and easier to combo you)

 

[-Jax]

Hmmm.... what else?

What I've noticed is that it's relatively safe to charge your Charge Beam against a Sheik at the start of the match, as the needles are pretty easy to see coming, so you can just shield them and keep charging, and she has to come closer to use that annoying bomb. So many Sheiks are giving me free fully charged beams by thinking they can interrupt me with their needles.

If they try to run in and stop you with an attack or grab instead, note that you can both grab, or shield -> jump -> airdodge out of your Charge Beam, and I find they usually anticipate only a shield or roll.

Besides grabbing one of my favorite ways to stop Sheik's approaches is to short hop backwards, and doing a fair off the stage. This does quite a bit of damage and puts you safe from any way Sheik could punish your landing lag. Maybe I've just been playing bad Sheiks, but there's a lot of ways you can harass Sheik from the edge of the stage. You can use your Charge Beam & Missiles, or if she's getting close to the edge wanting to guard it you can zair. After enough harass of this they'll usually return to more of the center-stage, and then you can safely get back on the stage and punish her approaches again/start another projectile pressuring contest (which you'll win).

rosalina (luma blocks your projectiles the entire game, even mid-air or when landing. sometimes you'll luck into some hitting but very rarely. you beat her up close though, so take it to her. if you kill luma shes pathetically easy for a few seconds though)

Really? I found Samus doesn't have a lot you can use up close against her. All of her close range stuff is similar to yours, except disjointed. What moves were you using in particular that you managed to beat her with? I found the most problematic moves in close range were her Fsmash, Dsmash, DA and Dtilt.

 

[AetherEch0s]

greninjas are pretty bad for that too. with samus and pacman both i get a full free charge because they stand there and charge their shuriken only to have it disappear halfway to me

Really? I found Samus doesn't have a lot you can use up close against her.

i didn't have any problem dash attacking into aerial combos or just ftilt/utilt when close. shes going to dash attack you or forward smash when you're close so thats pretty predictable too. if lumas up she'll side b to get you off her so you can just roll into her and followup. your jab is better than hers too if you just want to throw something out to get some space.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Ah yes. I like our ledge options as Samus versus Sheik. Samus can use most of her ledge options quite effectively against Sheik, and I believe these options are universally viable against all opponents.

Ledge hop fair is quick and does good damage if it hits. If shielded, we can simply fade back into ledge. Ledge hop zair pushes them away to make way for landing if they were at a high enough percent, or we may simply fall back to the ledge. I believe this applies to all matchups, and mixed with other ledge actions, we won't be walled to badly unless we overcommit.

If sheik needles us, she potentially eats a missile, and unless she charged her needles, we will be dealing more damage per trade.

Samus, may also cross up with shield using her dash attack, but that isn't too safe, in my opinion. Although, we might want to risk it since we can combo a sheik into around ~30% or so with a dash attack > up-air/fair > up-air/fair, or even up to ~40 if we land an up-B after all that

your jab is better than hers too if you just want to throw something out to get some space.

I thought that Samus had one of the worst jabs in the game since the hitstun is shorter than the lag after the first jab and the opponent can either shield, roll, or punish with a faster attack than Samus's second jab attack. I like using d-tilt in substitution, but Samus' jab comes out faster so I see where you are coming from. Samus's A > A is poor.

Edit: I typed a derogatory term instead of jab... So I fixed it... Sorry people.

 

[-Jax]

Ah yes. I like our ledge options as Samus versus Sheik. Samus can use most of her ledge options quite effectively against Sheik, and I believe these options are universally viable against all opponents.

Especially in Brawl, at least half of my game-time must have been off/near the ledge with Samus. I just love how powerful she is from off the stage, while being relatively free from getting harassed. In addition to this, if you do get on the stage again, you'll be able to get your opponents off there quickly and take the fight there. Which is generally something you don't want against Samus.

I thought that Samus had one of the worst jabs in the game since the hitstun is shorter than the lag after the first jab and the opponent can either shield, roll, or punish with a faster attack than Samus's second jab attack. I like using d-tilt in substitution, but Samus' jab comes out faster so I see where you are coming from. Samus's A > A is poor.

Maybe my problem with jabbing against Rosalina & Luma is that their jab combo can interrupt our second jab or something. I'm not sure. I just found that anytime in close-range I was getting outclassed by Rosalina & Luma because of Luma adding to her range, and the disjointed hitboxes on her fsmash, dsmash and dtilt meaning she could safely throw out attacks without fearing getting hit by mine.

Maybe I was just playing against someone significantly better than me and in my mind linking that to Rosalina & Luma instead of the player in general being more skilled than me. I haven't fought (m)any other skilled Rosalina & Luma players.

 

[Primer TMT]

What about a samus vs pit? i think pit is really even..or better :s

 

[pinkdeaf1]

What about a samus vs pit? i think pit is really even..or better :s

Pit feels easy to me. His only good aerial for hitting grounded opponents is dair, but samus covers aerial approaches so well. And, pit can't approach from the ground because we have a great grab. His arrows can be full hopped over and we can retaliate with a homing missile, and if he reflects it, we get a free grab, or even a f-smash or charged shot.

If we are in the air, pit cant do much with his up-air. He has to use up-smash, but we can just go to ledge or bait and punish with bair or charged shot. Besides, if he decides to come at us, we can retaliate pretty well. He can't guard the ledge well, and if he is off stage, we can easily predict a sweet spot up-B and cover that option with a dair.

We can also combo pit off of most of our combo starters. Pit can't.

We have better options overall than pit.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I'm definitely having trouble against Shulk and Greninja. Both have very disjointed hitboxes and move fast enough that its hard to get any projectiles out against them. They also seem to out prioritize most of her moves in boxing range. I have absolutely no idea how to beat either as Samus, and I'm going to put my money on them being some of her least favored matchups. Any advise against either would be appreciated.

As far as Rosalina goes, as lame as it can get, zair the crap out of her. If you space it optimally and she wont be able to punish you in a timely manner. They'll either get fed up and rush you which would would be easily stopped with a dtilt, grab,or fading fair, or they'll launch Luma at you which should just get shielded and leave you an opening to attack Rosalina herself. If you condition her to absorb weak missiles it will give you an opening to land an zair, and if you just opt to not use projectiles much at all you should actually be able to land a super missile or charged shot here and there as they wont be in the mindset to constantly throw it out. That or you can just hold onto your charge shot if they are the type to use their absorb anyway, giving you more easy openings.

 

[Savez]

I have A LOT of trouble vs little mac. I have this friend of mine who is pretty good and spams LM to no end and I want to be able to beat him with Samus.
I've beaten him with other chars but I think this is a bad matchup to begin with for Samus so I want to master it.

The problems I've found are

• Super armor and priority wise LM is a beast. Ftilt negates my Fsmash. I don't know if this is normal for all the chars
• I get launched in the air with little to no effort. Just and Ftilt or a smash at low % is enough to send you flying off half the stage
  
• Since it happens to get hit I have no clue on how to recover.
  • If I am in the air above the stage he gets me with upb or waits for me with an upsmash since his speed is ridiculous and I either have to tech or I WILL get juggled no question.
  • if I am on the side once I grab the ledge I either catch him offguard with a fair and land safely on the stage otherwise he can cover all the other options (attack from ledge just shield and punish, roll shield and downsmash, jump punished with an upsmash)

• On the ground is strangely the part where I have less trouble since spot-dodges, rolls, grabs, missiles, charge shot, dtilt and dsmash are all great tools to deal with LM and his insane speed both rolling and not but I have a bit of trouble killing him and most of the time I end up dealing past 150% without killing him. I successfully manage to land several grabs, even on the ledge but if I backthrow him he just side-b back on the stage and there is practically nothing I can do to prevent this. I know how to land dair or bair spikes but that damn sideb hits me first almost every time and even if I land it most time he just counters it. How should I edgeguard him? Utilt or usmash from the stage?
• Other options on the ground as killing moves are a no-no since I cant manage to juggle him very well cause his speed on the air is insane aswell (faster than Samus anyway) and the other grounded options like Fsmash are WAY too slow to be able to land them reliably
• Is there a way to punish someone who just backrolls away until they find a spot to get in? Which is pretty much all that LM does.

This is in no way meant to be a rant. I believe that LM may be a little too stong compared to other chars but he's not invincible and because of that I want to beat him.

Thanks for the help!

 

[pinkdeaf1]

@ Savez Dont f-smash. Your kills should be simply knocking him over the edge, so always go for grabs always. Then, boom! Hes over the ledge.

If he always side-bs back, punish with tilt, f-smash or charged shot. Or fire one as soon as he is off. If he double jumps, he gets hit. If side b, then tilt or something.

If he just back rolls, fire a missile. He might roll back and be forced to roll again out of habit, or eat a missile. Either eay, run up and grab. The timing is tricky, but possible. But you need this grab, among all other grabs.

if he knocks you into the air, go straight for ledge or fake a landing with bomb, meaning fall to the side, and use bomb to maneuver in the opposite direction.

 

[Savez]

@ pinkdeaf1 Ok this might help a lot actually. And how about recovering from the ledge? Roll up from it?

 

[TsuKiyoMe]

@ pinkdeaf1 Ok this might help a lot actually. And how about recovering from the ledge? Roll up from it?

Honestly? Just stand. Every other option is more punishable.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

@ pinkdeaf1 Ok this might help a lot actually. And how about recovering from the ledge? Roll up from it?

I like to ledge hop back and zair and regrab ledge, but I don't know how good this is against good little Macs.

 

[n00b]

I like to ledge hop back and zair and regrab ledge, but I don't know how good this is against good little Macs.

I just did this hypothetically in my head and my z-air got rolled through and I died from ftilt. Then I tried it again it connected but his charged downsmash armored through it and gimped my double jump, knocking me back horizontally. My labored efforts to bomb jump and recover ultimately fail by accidentally shooting a missile instead of up Bing to ledge due wifi lag

 

[option.iv]

I'm definitely having trouble against Shulk and Greninja. Both have very disjointed hitboxes and move fast enough that its hard to get any projectiles out against them. They also seem to out prioritize most of her moves in boxing range. I have absolutely no idea how to beat either as Samus, and I'm going to put my money on them being some of her least favored matchups. Any advise against either would be appreciated.

I do have some word of advice for shulk, though not greninja, as I haven't played against him as much. You want to pressure them into jumping. Now key point is to not let them nair you. They recover fast from nair and can probably jab you before you can shield grab. And don't think about punishing them if they know how to nair and land behind you. So you have to meet them in air and catch them with fair. Also for homing missiles, you can cancel into them from any dash. The best thing you can do is change up dashing forward or backward homing missiles, keeping somewhat mobile. Even if they counter, you can just punish with charge shot. Also incorporate zairs as that's your best aerial. Also, constantly find moments to charge up, you can always grab out of charge (R+A or L) or jump (R+Jump) if they're jumping in on you to meet them with fair.

Also if the person is in speed mode, the thing they're going for the most are grabs, so counter this with shorthop dair, or have a missile out before they fully change Monado arts.

I just did this hypothetically in my head and my z-air got rolled through and I died from ftilt. Then I tried it again it connected but his charged downsmash armored through it and gimped my double jump, knocking me back horizontally. My labored efforts to bomb jump and recover ultimately fail by accidentally shooting a missile instead of up Bing to ledge due wifi lag

It feels like a lot of people get sideb instead of upb in this game. Either it's the controls (no octogate like on gamecube to give us an idea of direction), or the actual amount of degrees for upb is small compared to side b. Or who knows, maybe a weird glitch or due to lag. But yeah, shooting a missile while going down is definitely not what anyone wants.

edit: now that I think about it, maybe inputs are dropped, because after I usually input upb, i steer towards the ledge immediately. Maybe it drops my up input but gets the side input.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Ah yes. I like our ledge options as Samus versus Sheik. Samus can use most of her ledge options quite effectively against Sheik, and I believe these options are universally viable against all opponents.

Ledge hop fair is quick and does good damage if it hits. If shielded, we can simply fade back into ledge. Ledge hop zair pushes them away to make way for landing if they were at a high enough percent, or we may simply fall back to the ledge. I believe this applies to all matchups, and mixed with other ledge actions, we won't be walled to badly unless we overcommit.

Except regrabbing the ledge doesn't give invincibility anymore so we can get hit on the ledge.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Except regrabbing the ledge doesn't give invincibility anymore so we can get hit on the ledge.

Does sheik have options to hit opponents on ledge with going off herself? This might be important for camping ledge.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Does sheik have options to hit opponents on ledge with going off herself? This might be important for camping ledge.

I don't use Sheik so idk, but with how small shield stun is there's is probably something Sheik (or most characters) can do to hit Samus off.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Does sheik have options to hit opponents on ledge with going off herself? This might be important for camping ledge.

Sheik has Bair for tether grab...so dont camp the ledge against her..

 

[Nayol]

My problem with samus is that everyone just short hops against me

Any advice?