Matchup Discussion, Week 2: Sheik

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Sheik
Before you begin to read this, I have permission from Mumbo, the original creator of this idea. I will be using his format and some of his information, so give a big credit for the work he's put into this. Thanks. Unfortunately I'm not great with formatting so it won't look as nice as Mumbos.

This will be a series of threads, each dedicated to a single matchup, covering all 41(+) matchups. These threads are going to be a collaboration, so PLEASE give me your thoughts and opinions. Post your videos here, even if you lose. Post your preferred stages, even if people think otherwise. Post your tips, even if you think you aren't the best player.

The character vote for Shiek was a 4 way tie, so we used a randomizer to pick one of the 4. We will vote for the next matchup here on this guide, so vote on the strawpoll here:

Part 1 - http://strawpoll.me/4283685

Part 2 - http://strawpoll.me/4283684

I. Videos:

II. Overview:
Shiek is a character who is reliant on baits in the neutral, racking up damage with grabs, and closing out stocks with edge-guards.


Shiek's Strengths:

• Strong grab game (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Strong tech chase game (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Strong edge-guards (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Reliable ender (F-air) (TimeMuffinPhD)

Shiek's Weaknesses:

• Somewhat weak neutral. (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Easily combo-ed. (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Easy to edge-guard. (TimeMuffinPhD)

Key Points:

• Don't get grabbed. (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Laser helps define the neutral. (TimeMuffinPhD)
• Don't get baited, be patient. (TimeMuffinPhD)

III. Matchup Analysis:

Neutral Game:

• The 3 key points which have already been stated sort of overview the neutral game against Shiek. Her grab game is very potent, she can d-throw tech-chase you until you're at a high enough percent to finish you. There are several ways to counter this:
  
  1). Don't get grabbed. The reason you get grabbed by her is by being predictable, or by her baiting you. Sheik's entire neutral game is very reliant around baiting. She will do this with dash-dances, wavedashes and needles. You will need to be quite patient and aware - pick up on the habits she uses to bait you and predict her instead.
  
  2). So you're eventually going to get grabbed at somepoint, so what do you do once you get grabbed? Good Shiek's will normally follow up confidently on grab tech-chases, but there are things you can do to stop them from doing so. Simply mixing up your get-up options, normal get-up is the quickest; but possibly the easiest to react too. If you condition them to tech-chasing normal get-ups however, you can start using get-up attack to counter this. This isn't the be all and end all, but use this as a rough guide. What seems to be the most reliable however is get-up into instant shine - this comes out far too fast for Shiek to be able to tech-chase you like she was doing before. She can still counter-play this by waiting for the shine, then grab you. Of course now you have a more powerful mix-up option at your disposal. (TimeMuffinPhD)
  
  
• Using the blaster will help sway the neutral in your favor. This allows you to make the pace of the game match yours, blaster will force her to approach; or even start an approach for you. For example, if you waveland blaster forward and hit her shield, you can then follow up with several things. (TimeMuffinPhD)

Comboing/Punishing Sheik:

• Shine -> Dair (Full hop dair) (The Baron)

• If she Di's out, go for a reset (dash attack, grab) (The Baron)
  
• Waveshine from 0 - 10%. (The Baron)
  
• Tech chase off of b-throw and D-throw (The Baron)
  
• Uair and fair juggles since she has a hard time getting down (The Baron)

Escaping Sheik's Pressure:

• If she's fishing for a lot of grabs, don't be afraid to spot dodge to get out of it or, if you've got the timing down, shine before it gets out. (The Baron)
  
• DI'ing out is pretty much a must as all her attacks lead into fair which will kill you, so make it as hard to follow up as you can (The Baron)
  
• Optimize and be unpredictable with your techs. Shieks love their D-throw tech chases and your tech roll is pretty short so she can get some things off of reaction (The Baron)

Edgeguarding Sheik:

• Hold ledge and laugh. With the amount of landing lag on her recovery, and the fact that she doesn't have much way of threatening you on the ledge, you should easily be able to punish her when she goes to the stage or just hog her if she goes for ledge. (The Baron)

Recovering against Shiek:

• Cry (The Baron)
  
• Recovering against shiek is hard but not impossible. All of her options out prioritize or beat your two very meager options making this very rough (The Baron)
  
• Sweet spot if you can, as that's the only guarunteed out you get against getting edgeguarded (The Baron)
  
• If you can flash back on quickly do it, but don't put all your stock in this. YOu can still get punished on stage and genre savvy shieks will call your attempts if you get too predictable (The Baron)
  
• Nothing beats needles. Nothing. Ifyou get needles your dead in which case refer to the first bullet point (The Baron)
  
• Up B is pretty slow, so if you know shiek like edgeguarding via fair, try to flash back in. (The Baron)
  
• If she prefers nair then you can make it back but you will probably take a lot of damage coming in (The Baron)
  
• in short, refer to bullet point one (The Baron)

Putting it all together:

• Play neutral as hard s you can. You can win it, and once you get your punish take it far as one grab from shiek can be a stock. (The Baron)
  
• Hold stage when edge guarding and don't be put into situations where you're trying to recover (The Baron)
  
• Space blaster carefully and don't get too laser happy or else death awaits (The Baron)

IV. Stages
Pick

• Wario Ware(Personal Bias)
  
  
• GHZ
  
  
• FD

Ban

• FoD

• Battlefield
  
  
• Dreamland(personal Bias) (The Baron)
  

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:
Tips:



Guide Contributors:
@ TimeMuffinPhD @ BRUJO~ @ Mr. PotatoBread @ The Baron

 

[Cohenski]

I lost to this sheik by the name of Pikmin in my last South Carolina tournament. I was pretty confident going in, and even got the stage I wanted, PS2.

I ended up losing and then saltying and losing again.

Biggest takeaways are:
Don't get grabbed
Hold center stage
Ledge options matter a lot against sheik

I would love to rematch Pikmin. He's going down next time.

 

[BRUJO~]

As a Sheik main, if I can bait a punishable move out of a Wolf player, I can kill him. Or at least rack up some nasty damage. And Wolf mains, lets be honest, y'all are super thirsty for those combos so I'm always able to bait a dair or upsmash or whatever you guys use.

Learn what Sheik uses to bait (normally wavelands/dashes, but there are obviously other options) and don't be a fish

 

[Mr. PotatoBread]

If you manage to get under Sheik you can get some serious damage on her. You have to get into a habit of performing a shine after a tech if sheik is techchasing you. Keep up the laser pressure on her at all times - You wan't to trap her in a position where she has to work to punish anything you do. Wolf's CC is very good. If the sheik is going for tilts and aerials at low% you can CC shine.

Yoshi's Island Brawl is a very good because it reduces the effectiveness of horizontal needles due to the uneven floor and aerial needles due to the big platform. I really don't need to say this, but FoD is EVIL in this MU. I don't think sheik has an Uthrow chaingrab (can anyone confirm?) on wolf and because of wolf's horizontal camping prospects, FD is a good stage for wolf I would say.

For a while I didn't really like going Wolf vs Sheik and I'd just use my Sheik secondary and play the ditto, but I decided to try wolf v sheik again at my most recent tournament and I felt like the MU is at least even.

Edgeguarding her is pretty standard. Grab ledge, punish onstage.

at about 80-90% you can start going for shine into sideB to take stocks.

 

[The Baron]

Everyone has basically said what needs to but I feel as though the most important thing in this matchup is to not approach. Weird right, a wolf that says don't approach but it's true. Shiek has a lot of ways to basically say no to any ariel approach option you want to take and can hurt you bad for it. What's worse is that lasers are probably one of your least effective tools in this matchup due to her dash being very low to the ground and dash attack being able to punish any attempt you make at wavelanding laser, not to mention if you want to try camping her, she can either beat you out with needles or just crawl under laser and then go in. My biggest suggestion is to get used to tech chasing, mixing up your techs, effectively dash dancing, and running shine. I can't tell you how big a deal running shine is as most of your grounded options are very committal and shiek can hurt you bad if things don't work out. But running shine is a god send because it's not super committal, leads into combos, reflects needles, and you can easily retreat from it. Also, don't be super aggressive offstage unless you know you have the kill, because once you are offstage, you're dead, no questions asked. All her options beat wolf flash and fire wolf and needles are ugh. Instead, just grab ledge and punish. It's that easy, or your money back. And don't get grabbed. That phrase seems like a trend but it's true. Don't for the love of god, get grabbed.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

If you manage to get under Sheik you can get some serious damage on her. You have to get into a habit of performing a shine after a tech if sheik is techchasing you. Keep up the laser pressure on her at all times - You wan't to trap her in a position where she has to work to punish anything you do. Wolf's CC is very good. If the sheik is going for tilts and aerials at low% you can CC shine.

Yoshi's Island Brawl is a very good because it reduces the effectiveness of horizontal needles due to the uneven floor and aerial needles due to the big platform. I really don't need to say this, but FoD is EVIL in this MU. I don't think sheik has an Uthrow chaingrab (can anyone confirm?) on wolf and because of wolf's horizontal camping prospects, FD is a good stage for wolf I would say.

For a while I didn't really like going Wolf vs Sheik and I'd just use my Sheik secondary and play the ditto, but I decided to try wolf v sheik again at my most recent tournament and I felt like the MU is at least even.

Edgeguarding her is pretty standard. Grab ledge, punish onstage.

at about 80-90% you can start going for shine into sideB to take stocks.

FoD is evil in which character's favor?

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

There seems to be a large disparity in the vote for how good/bad this matchup is. I thought I may aswell give my thoughts as to why I think this is 'Slightly in Wolf's favor'.

I think in theory Wolf controls the neutral game far more than Sheik does. If you refer to what I've written in the guide, you can see I've said that Wolf can use the Blaster to make Sheik approach; and even create approaches for himself. Sheik is all bait with wavedashes and needles. Even if the Sheik manages to get in with a grab, they need to be extremely consistent if they want to finish the stock; whereas Wolf has a much easier time when finishing Sheik's. The only advantage I see Sheik having is via edgeguarding, regardless however Wolf won't find it difficult to edgeguard Sheik. Sheik just has to work harder in pretty much every factor in this matchup, that's why I think it's 55:45. It's similar to the Fox matchup in melee, just not as skewed.

 

[Mr. PotatoBread]

FoD is evil in which character's favor?

FoD is really bad for wolf IMO. The playtorms really get in the way and it is a traditionally good stage for sheik in many MUs.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

I think that FOD is alright for Wolf because he's a spacy so small stages are at least alright for him. EXCEPT against Sheik, because you'll get EVERYTHING'd through the platforms. It's alright for Wolf because really the only way the platforms will really get in the way are when you're combo-ing on the ground, and really the only thing you'll use on the ground to combo is dash attack. If you use an aerial you'll see the platform coming up and I guarantee that you'll see it coming and still make the L cancel. Just be creative when it comes to Wolf combos, you can do that with 9/10 of his moves

 

[Mr. PotatoBread]

I think that FOD is alright for Wolf because he's a spacy so small stages are at least alright for him. EXCEPT against Sheik, because you'll get EVERYTHING'd through the platforms. It's alright for Wolf because really the only way the platforms will really get in the way are when you're combo-ing on the ground, and really the only thing you'll use on the ground to combo is dash attack. If you use an aerial you'll see the platform coming up and I guarantee that you'll see it coming and still make the L cancel. Just be creative when it comes to Wolf combos, you can do that with 9/10 of his moves

The Problem I have with FoD is not so much L-Cancelling but rather laser-WDing. Other than that, wolf has similar problems to CF on FoD.

The other half of my hatred of this stage is just my dislike of moving parts in stages like randall and even small things like the DL tree wind, but thats just my own thing

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Different strokes different folks, I'm not big on WarioWare but Chillin is, everyone's got a different play style