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Match up Break Downs | Updated 9/10/14 |

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
Location
Colver, PA



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08LMZ9ezSz0&list=PLRZgx2SiH09uN4_HuYmEbwjwrkxqFSTd4

^

Will link you to a playlist of all the videos I make for this project, if you're interested in the matches more than the text information.

I wanted to have a place where all of the things I post my advice, matches, and general bull ****tery were all easy to locate and to give everyone easy access to what I hope to make a thread to help everyone improve.

I plan to do this by breaking down match ups with a video background of my friendly/tournament sets as a basis to give everyone an idea what I am talking about. I strongly believe trying to explain things to people through text can often be difficult. My goal is revive the Ganondorf forums and usher in a new age of Ganondorf.

Basically, I think Ganondorf mains are rare and we should help each other improve by sharing everything we have to offer. No egos, no calling each other out, no negativity this is a support hot line 1800-we-wreck-everyone.


Ganondorf has some insanely hard up hill battles to climb in his match ups. The more we work together to share our information to educate each other, help each other (by idk punching each other in the face?) Ganondorfs need to be forged through pain or some... psycho.. bull...shi.. whatever.. Point is, I am going to try to record videos with some amazing players for each character in the game and break down key information for each match up. It may not be the most indepth knowledge but having a core understanding of what you're going to be up against may just give you enough to get by.


I would like to begin by discussing Ganondorf as a character.

Let's start by going over his moves ;


Jab/Tilts/Dash attack

  • Jab / Neutral A : A fast and useful attack.. hit box's are active on the 3rd-5th frames. Good against characters that cause a lot of pressure. Simple combos include but are not limited to ; jabbing multiple times, (sometimes wave dashing to stay close in between) Jab -> Grab some people may try to shield after being jabbed. Jab -> Dash Attack is great for quick easy damage and helps a lot in Ganondorfs general ground game.

  • Forward Tilt (Regular, up and down angled) : F tilt is another fast spacing tool with a surprising amount of range. Hit box's are active on the 9th-11th frames. The f tilt is a good mix in with grabs when wave landing on flat stages. It's strong to help keep faster characters away and creates the space you need whenever you cannot jump. Ganon mains these days have POOR ground games, use your tilts guys I promise they are great.
  • Up angled forward tilt : Is amazing for stuffing approaches, the most common use being against captain falcon. If Captain falcon approaches with side b, n air, knee, ect. the up angled f tilt will beat it out if he's trying to hit you directly. (doesn't space it out)
  • Down angled forward tilt: Is a strong edge guarding tool usually against Fox/Falcos who do NOT sweet spot the ledge, contrary to popular belief. If Fox/Falco sweet spots the ledge Ganondorfs down angled forward tilt DOES NOT hit him even if you put the attack out before, during or after he reaches the ledge.
  • Down tilt: A good neutral game spacing tool and combo extender, Active hit box frames on 10-12. Up throw -> down tilt can lead to devastating combos on fast fallers. Crouch cancel wars with tilt spamming sheiks will be good here. You are heavier than she is if you go down tilt for down tilt you will win.
  • Up Tilt: Before I get into the move it's self, I'm going to advise all of you who are "pure" Ganondorf mains to go out and use other characters. I played Ganondorf for two years or so before dabbling in other characters and it was a mistake. It took me a long time to learn how to up tilt with other characters without jumping or doing something weird I did not want to do. So, if you're going to main Ganondorf branch out a little with other characters so you don't have technical problems in the future like I did. So, this move will be so rarely used that you will often forget it exists. Active hit box frames on 81-33 makes this super laggy predictable move nearly useless. Best use is on a sleeping Jigglypuff or on a broken shield. It can be used to edge guard but it is unnecessary whenever you have a plethora of better options at your disposal.
  • Dash Attack: A fast combo extender or pressure breaker, hit boxes are active on frames 7-16. A good combo move after a jab can lead to more follow ups as it sends them into the air. An uncommon use of dash attack that is good is vs. Falco. Forward throw a Falco player and they will almost always jump (the f throw doesn't send them very far) So they will try to laser or do an aerial. The dash attack will hit them and keep them grounded. From there you can pivot tilt, dash attack again, try for a turn around grab ect. It's not terribly useful but against space animals you need all the tools you can get.
Smash Attacks

  • Forward Smash: The most accidentally used move in Ganondorf history, hit boxes are active on frames 20-24. The most applicable use of this move is to abuse that it has an auto spacing feature built in, it may be tricky but it can be used if you feel like you are about to grabbed it will pull you backwards before launching the attack. Realistically, that example will be rare and will be hard to execute just something to think about. A good kill move on stages with low ceilings and a good mix up for wave lands and pivots.

  • Down Smash: My favorite smash attack, hit boxes are active on frames 19-22 and again on 29-32. A gimmick Ganondorf can abuse is beside the ledge you down smash and the first hit will send them flying off the stage behind you, usually leads to a safe edge guarding position. Generally, whenever you have high percentage or are behind in stocks a gimp is what you're looking for. This gimp is surprisingly effective because a lot of people under estimate the length of Ganondorfs down smash. Another use is tech chasing, I often use it on space animals at low percentages after a down throw. If it connects with both hits you can grab them out of the air or follow up with another punish of your choosing. Side b, f air, another down smash ect. You can also chain down smash, turn around down smash at low percentages on fast fallers and floaties. It's amusing, does decent damage and is easy to follow up.

  • Up Smash: a very under utilized smash attack, hit boxes are active on frames 21-23 and again on 26-29. Often used as a tech chase option when people are above you on platforms the up smash can be used in a lot of unique ways. It can be used as a kill move on floaties being combo'd off of down throw, usually only connects off of bad DI. The crotch hit box acts like a marth tipper, it has a lot of knock back and sends people straight away from you, I wish I knew a way to combo into it more effectively but when it's used it is great. Weird use on FoD when you up smash as the platforms on the left and right when they are rising you move from the ground up onto the platform which pseudo extends the range of the attack. Another cool use is when you are on "randall" the cloud on yoshi's story, up smash when you get close to the stage (on the left side) and your up smash goes fairly far up through the stage/past the ledge can help relieve pressure.

Aerials

  • Neutral Air: The most under utilized / undiscovered attack, hit boxes are active on frames 7-8, 16-17. *VERSION 1 of ssbm* Active on frames 20-21 on all others versions... Why they did that who knows.. Often used by Kage as a combo extender, very few Ganondorf mains have experimented or found much use for this weak, laggy.. attack. Can be used on floaties at low percentages out of down throw to combo into both hits, which can lead into another attack but is not reliable. Kage will use it on spacies ex: down air -> n air - f air. To extend his combo for bonus damage, these combo's a very DI dependant and also unreliable. N air, can also be used in teams as an option to save a team mate who can't quite make it to the ledge.

  • Back air: Best spammed aerial, hit boxes are active on frames 10-15. Back air is used commonly as a spacer or a kill move. Down throw combos into it, tech chase with it, and is Ganondorf's most spammable safe aerial with it's speed and disjointed hit boxes. Very strong in the Ganondorf match up, your opponent clone dorf has a hard time getting through walls of back airs. Same can be said vs. Jigglypuff, back air makes the match vs jiggs go from hell to playable.

  • Forward air: Ganondorf's most reliable aerial: hit boxes are active on frames 14-19. a spaced f air is one of Ganondorf's most useful attacks. It beats out a lot of characters approaches if you see them coming in to hit you, makes a nice disjointed wall in front of you and if it hits has considerable knock back.

  • Up air: Ganondorf's fastest aerial, hit box's are active on 6-16. This aerial with it's speed and large range is a great spacing tool. It can be used to stuff a lot of approaches, is a good choice out of shield, and is a good combo follower usually off of jab and into it's self. The *Tipman* Spike (Some people call it the Eddie spike, I don't care what you call it.) Reverse up air, you space it so your toes hit the edge of the ledge can send your opponent into a gimpy down and away hit stun leading to easy edge guards. Another use of the "tipman/eddie spike" is the Eikeldrop. Eikelmann, likes to ledge drop up air against Marth's recovery.

  • Down air: Ganondorf's most damaging aerial, hit box's are active on frames 16-20. It is a meteor spike, meteor's can be canceled with your second jump or your up b once out of hit lag. Since this down air has an electric effect it has a few extra frames of hit stun, whenever you try to meteor cancel vs. Ganondorf down air you need to do it little bit later than you would against other characters. The hit box is enormous, if you have someone above you on a platform you can hit him with your head, obviously up air/other aerials are a better choice but it is an option. The only thing I've seen with the head down air is on pokemon stadium. I like to short hop down air when people are above him on the low platforms, then follow up onto the platform for which ever punish seems applicable, unreliable but pretty cool.
Special Moves


  • Warlock Punch (Neutral B): Much like the uptilt, you will often forget this move exists hit boxes are active on frames 70-72. Another great punish for broken shields and sleeping jigglypuffs. You should basically never use this move for much of anything.. BizzaroFlame and I will occasionally warlock punch when falling from very high distances, you'd be surprised how often people will try to punish it and get blasted to oblivion.

  • Gerudo Dragon (Side B): Automatic spacing tool, combo starter and extender. Hit boxes are executable on frames 15-34. Good to use as a tech chaser, out of a lower percentage down air, down throw and so on. It is another good tool for when if you think someone is going to try to grab you because it has a pull back on the start, using it twice in a row has a chance of hitting because many people try to shield grab it the first time it hits their shield. Ledge hop side b is a good mix up to help deal with being pressured on the ledge. - Aerial Side b ; Worthless, laggy, if you find a use for it let me know.

  • Dark Dive (Up b): A slow predictable recovery move, grab boxes are active on frames 13-33.





I was avoiding using images from other threads but this really needs to brought to everyone attention, Ganondorf's up b.. Let's talk about the positive before I get into the negative.

On take off at the start of the up b it has a much larger range makes it a great option for out of shield. If someone shields on a platform above you it also makes for a good offensive option if you jump up to someone expecting you to throw out an aerial. "tomahawking" (empty neutral jump, land, grab.) with Ganondorf's up b is very strong. A lot of people shield very often against Ganondorf so an empty jump into up b can often lead to unexpected damage or a potential kill mix up. Up bing reverse while recovering will pull your body closer to the stage making it easier to tech. However, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to land on the stage after using your up b. Use this wisely, whenever you see an opponent that rarely grabs the ledge.

Look where Ganondorf's up b grab box is actually located during the animation... a grab box for some reason is hiding inside of his stomach and part of his knee cap, you would think, expect or even hope a grab move would come out past his arms or by his head or something.. So the grab is small and not very reliable. Ganondorf CANNOT sweet spot the ledge, his legs go up over the ledge and the landing lag on stage makes you never want to recover high onto the stage. Whenever you land on the stage from an up B you are stuck in one full second of lag giving your opponent tons of time to choose anything they want to do to you.

  • Wizard's Foot: A good offensive surprise in the neutral game, hit boxes are active on frames 14-34. Often used as a random attack to break up neutral spacing this semi-fast move can be used as an edge guard, combo finisher, tech chaser and like side b is a good mix up from the ledge to help get rid of the pressure of an edge guarder. Another good thing to mix in with your ground jab/tilt game can throw people off, never should be spammed because it's laggy and predictable.

  • Aerial Wizard's Foot: Is a true spike, hit box's are active on frames 15-29. Can be used as a strong edge guard but often not worth the risk. Using this technique gives you another jump which can make recovering much nicer. It is however, extremely punishable. If you ever down b anywhere near the stage and you are not punished you should thank the person you are playing against for not hitting you out of it. A set up for the true spike to down air someone by the ledge, rejump and then immediately down b them.


Every video I make will be against an accomplished Player

  • Uber Ice

Top 10 player in Florida : Recently defeated Linguini/Lambchops in tournament.

(results thread can be found here)

http://smashboards.com/threads/body-bag-results.349927/

  • RockCrock
Another top 10 player in Florida, known for being one of the best Ganondorf players in the US also very strong in the Ganondorf match up.

A link to one of his combo videos : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28XUXIDnc0E


  • Moltov
Popular Twitch.tv Ocarina of Time speed runner fast learning/developing Peach/Sheik Main.

www.twitch.tv/Moltov


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:popo:

Ice Climbers | Renth vs. Uberice Friendlies | VIDEO UPLOADED 3/11/14


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAeMdLTGn4&feature=youtu.be

Played a bunch of friendlies with uber ice today, we decided to record a handful of them. More to come in the future vs. more amazing players.

The biggest thing you need to realize honestly is that it's a match of pure punishment. If you land a fair keep in mind NANA DOES NOT TECH STAY ON THAT HOE LIKE SHE OWE YOU MONEY.

Do everything in your power to not get grabbed. The name of the game is Bait and wait. Ice Climbers will use their superior wave dash speed to get in and out of your aerials try your best not to let yourself open with a big enough window for them to get inside of you.

PRESSURE IS KEY. The match up is a back and fourth struggle. Basically, when Uber Ice and I are playing. If he feels helpless I played well, If I felt helpless he played well. It's a match up of pure punish that both sides flourish at. Edge guarding (tho i ****ed it up a lot) Is very easy. Do not do anything flashy AT ALL seriously stand still. PoPo will side b to you just bait it out and f air / b air it. I unfortunately have way too much fun with movement and momentum abilities I often let easy edge guards/drop a lot of easy hits. (DO NOT BUILD THIS HABIT) It's slowly being beaten out of me.

Let me drop a few more tips:

Whenever PoPO down throws you and Nana down airs, the BEST way out if to Smash DI down and away behind Popo. As soon as Nana hits you with the D air try your damnedest to get the smash DI down and away.

From there you can buffer a roll, double jump, up b ect. Just a warning this takes a lot of practice and even when you understand how it works it is still Very difficult to achieve consistently.

Not much else to say, watch enjoy. Uber Ice is godlike.


Learn as many nana mechanics as you can. The more you know the better you will do at the match up a few examples:

If you are by the ledge and Nana grabs you. She will ALWAYS forward throw you off the stage that's why you only see Ice Climber hand off combos in that position. As I mentioned earlier she does not tech so If you land a f air on both Popo/Nana a follow up f air on Nana is guaranteed. If they are on a platform above you let's say yoshi's at low percentage you can up air chain Nana zero to death fairly easily. You have to keep your eye on Popo at ALL times whilst killing Nana. Focus Nana is a key element to the match up but you need to do a lot of delayed aerials, empty jumps and baits for popo because that little douche is a lot faster than you think he is. He will try to interrupt you with quick wave dash/smashes or grabs.

Popo can SOLO chain grab you from 0-40% if you hit Nana away and are fighting Popo. He can chain grab you and wait for her to get back to him. If you are low percentage and you feel like you have advantage cause Nana is not in a favorable position it can come back to bite you on the ***. Do not under estimate their dash attack, it can chain into its self and sends you very far even at very low percentages. Jabs and tilts are your friends space them and you will do great!

A good Ice Climber player will always have a superior Sopo game to whenever he has Nana with him. When people understand the match up a lot of ice climber players play without nana cause she's dead a lot of the time. Whenever I kill his Nana I feel like his actual game begins, whenever nana is alive he just wants to do grab/death combos. Basically, do not sleep on Sopo.

A piece of information I feel is not commonly known: *tested and proved*

If you get a grab on the ice climbers when they are together (popo specifically) Ganondorf is a tall character, tall enough to the point where popo no longer has control of nana. If you DOWN THROW like you want to because it's the throw every ganon main combos off of. The bounce on the down throw will give him enough control to have nana smash you/grab you ect. So, If you grab Popo use any throw besides down.


Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage

  • Yoshi's Story: Advantage *60/40*
Ice Climbers have a hard time dealing with you in their face especially on this stage. Every time I respawn on this stage against Uber Ice he says it feels he has no where he can run. It leads me to a good punish or a free kill on Nana a lot of the time. When it comes to counter picking this stage is your #1 choice.

  • Battlefield: Even *50/50*
Battlefield is one of if not Ganondorfs best stage in general, the top platform helps deal with his grab game. Staying on a platform can be hazardous, the Ice Climbers have a devastating up air. So, if you're going to be above them keep moving in unorthodox patterns because they can and will abuse you.

  • Final Destination: Disadvantage *40/60*
Ice Climbers have a much stronger neutral game here, you have no platforms to escape to, do tricks on and it strongly hurts your mobility. Ganondorf's neutral game becomes a lot more predictable on flat surfaces you have to be very on point with your ground game to stand up against them on this stage. I'd ban this stage every time.

  • Dreamland: Advantage *55/45*
The amount of space you have to move around is great to get around their grab game. Abuse the mobility that is granted to you by the size of the stage. Uber Ice says he doesn't like this stage vs. Ganondorf because he survives too long. If you feel you are too pressured on small stages I'd encourage to go here to increase your chances to survive.

  • Pokemon Stadium: Disadvantage *45/55*
The whack stage transformations mess with Nana's AI a lot of the time which can lead to more opportunities to kill her. Ice Climbers do well here similar to why they do well on FD. You need to have a solid ground jab/tilt game to do well on this stage.

  • Fountain of Dreams: Advantage *55/45*
Another stage where you can live a long time due to the high ceiling and long boundaries of the blast zones, the moving platforms often mess with grab opportunities for the Ice Climbers and the top platform acts as a nice escape from the neutral pressure game. (Reminder from above, do not camp top platform in this match up. The Ice Climbers up air is very powerful and you will be abused if you stay there too long, keep moving.)


- One of the better matches for Ganondorf. This match up comes down a lot match up knowledge, I'm convinced a lot of people who lose to Ice Climbers in general is because of a lack of exerience. They are not a commonly played character and learning to fight them takes time. When I first started playing Uber Ice I would often be 3/4 stocked and rage that his character was stupid. Now that some time has passed I no longer feel Ice Climbers are as incredible as I once thought.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________



:ganondorf:



Ganondorf Dittos | Renth vs. RockCrock Friendlies | Video uploaded 3/12/14


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08LMZ9ezSz0

He read/caught my double jump MANY times. I'll watch out for that in the future.


The long and short | Ganon Dittos.

It's another zoning match up ladies and gentlemen!

Key note :

Ganondorfs Down b is E X T R E M E L Y punishable!!

Anytime you see Ganondorf use his down b remotely close to the stage jump out and f air/b air it. Once Ganondorf is stuck in that gross, never trades with anything lasts forever animation. He is doomed to eat a fist to the face. A lot of the time against players who are familiar with fighting Ganondorf it's better to use down - b sparingly, only use it far away from the stage and be very careful with how you recover.

You spend the entire match up fishing for that one good hit, you follow up like you haven't eaten for a week and there is a giant tray of *insert food you love here* just on the other side of the person you are punching the living **** out of. It's a battle of out smarting/out playing your opponent. The less the person you are playing against knows your specific play style the better in this one (I mean.. that can be said all the time but.. Ganon dttos are harsh and if your opponent knows your habits/styles/approaches/mind games ect. then you are one cooked goose) I mean honestly, you will be Ganondorfs dinner he will eat you without a second thought do not get eaten my friends!

Which leads me to a short off topic story, I play with UberIce a lot. He and I go to tournaments and I know he is a strong player, I make it a point to only warm up with him before the event starts. Let's face it friends, Ganondorf has got a lot of gimmicks in his general game play. The less Marthfan1337 and FireFoxMasterSniper are comfortable/familiar with these "tricks" and general Ganondorf play the more chances you have to catch them by surprise in the future.

If you KNOW the other Ganondorf is going to approach with an f air (poorly spaced just throwing it in there hoping.) A short hop up air will beat it every time, back air will also win in this situation. Side b is risky but can lead to good follow ups, down smash is another risky option but the risk is often worth the reward. It all leads to that one good hit, do whatever you have to do SAFELY get that opening shot and take full advantage. Grabs ; I feel are under utilized in this match up. seriously... Grabs dominate Ganondorf dittos. They are easy to follow up, you can CHAIN GRAB, and it helps control your oppoent.

KEY NOTE :

Ganondorf has a phenominal roll trying to punish it is hard. The only time you should try to punish it is if the person you're playing has a "tell" a habit you've noticed in a situation and then is one of the only times it's worth trying to hit. A lot of times rolls against Ganondorf punish attempts happen and they get counter hit/shield grabbed for it.

Whomever is standing in the center of the stage is winning, stage control is supremely important. Running away on platforms is safe if you keep moving in unorthodox patterns. If you stay above Ganondorf for too long he will up air repeatedly. SHIELDING ON PLATFORMS IS NOT SAFE ; You can be like Hahahah Ganondorf your attacks are slow and predictable i'm just going to shield!! However, that isn't the case. Ganondorf is surprisingly good at shield poking unintentionally. As well as intentionally for people who ya know.. know how to space and not suck. If you shield too often off of landing lag (KEY NOTE: Whenever you land on the stage from a free fall from your up b you will have ONE FULL SECOND of landing lag.) Then the Ganondorf will often use his up b for free damage off of your shielding. Good Ganondorf play I've seen also include ground tech chasing not just on platforms with their up b offensively and has netted positive results.

Become confident with your edge guarding abilities seriously. Don't be a ****** like me and waveland all over the universe once your opponent is off stage. Grab the damn ledge, reverse up air, or whatever aerial you like and just hit him. This match up one where one HIT can change an entire match, It is by far the most frequent match where I see someone about to get 4 stocked be able to come back and win the match.


Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage


  • Yoshi's Story: Even *50/50*
Small stages compliment Ganondorf in general, he's a hard hitting machine. This stage makes great use of abusing Ganondorfs that use their down b to recover. Watch for it, if it comes anywhere remotely close to you go hit it, take his stock. Make him feel like his best recovery option is worthless. If he recovers using his down b close to the stage then you are a very generous human being allowing him to live.

  • Battlefield: Even *50/50*
Ganondorf has a great ledge game on this stage. Great use of shield drop, ledge cancels and mobility to get away from opponents. Whomever in this match up is standing in the center of the stage is winning. (same with every other stage in this match up.. it was just a general plug... stfu leave me alone) Running platforms to escape is usually safe but be warned staying above Ganondorf is a death sentence. Ganondorf has no good ways to get down and that other Ganondorf..clone? person is going to up air you to oblivion.

  • Final Destination: Even *50/50*
If you are going to play against a Ganondorf who's style is fast paced, likes to abuse platform games and often want to use their speed against you via wavelands, shield drops and other such shenanigans. This is the stage to take them to. If you have a calm slow paced spacing style you will put taking these types of players out of their element. Forcing them to play you on a flat neutral game, it truly tests their ground game and spacing abilities.

  • Dreamland: Even *50/50*
If you feel overwhelmed by your opponent in small spaces then this is your counter pick. It opens up tons of space for you to move around at your own pace. You can live much longer on this stage than others because of it's massive boundaries. The "speedy dorfs" Like this stage a lot. If you did not know Ganondorfs jump and double jump both go perfectly with the platforms. To practice perfect wavelanding for beginners I always bring them to this stage. At the top of your first jump under the left or right platform, hold full right or left then simply press L/R whichever you prefer and you will do a perfect waveland. Same thing applies with the top platform with your double jump.

  • Pokemon Stadium: Even *50/50*
Similar to Final Destination, this is a great place to slow down those "speedy dorfs." The mostly flat stage forces them to play a slower spacing game. A superior ground game is also a must when it comes to this stage as you are in close quarters very often. The stage transformations don't really benefit Ganondorf much, there are a few sneaky lag cancels. Whenever a transformation is beginning or ending, if you use your down b at that time then it will be lagless at the end.

  • Fountain of Dreams: Even *50/50*
A smaller stage to help keep your opponent close to you, I enjoy the platforms on the left and right whenever they get low to a certain point you can back air, drop through back air, rejump back air. It's fast reliable and is fairly entertaining to do. Ledge cancel city on this stage, you can up air ledge cancel multiple times to assist edge guarding and abuse them in your general game play. The large boundaries help you live a long time which is important vs. Ganondorf. Since you know... he hits you twice and you are being edge guarded. :smash:



- Not too many ending notes for this one... Does it surprise you all the stages are even? well it shouldn't you dummy. Space him out, land that one good hit and edge guard your way to victory. I strongly repeat when it comes to edge guarding don't be a ****** like me. Once they are off stage stand with your back to the ledge, do what you have to do and if he recovers low.... grab the ledge. Seriously, why do so many people refuse to take free stocks by rolling onto the stage (this is me yelling at myself.)

_______________________________________________________________________________________

:sheik:

Renth (Ganondorf) Vs. Moltov (Sheik)
Set 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_0uQIvej24
Set 2 http://youtu.be/KWYLZaBuhcE
Set 3 http://youtu.be/YHcPT6C2uuA


The Neutral I feel like this is the biggest issue most Ganondorf mains have in the match up so we will start here and slowly work our way through the rest of the break down.

To do well against Sheik, you need to have an extremely polished fundamental game. The basics very good spacing, phenomenal ground game, on point chain grabs and being aware of when and when not to do certain things.

Basically, you need to get punishes on her weak approach game. Your punish game needs to be perfection getting the maximum damage output each time or you aren't going to last long. Abuse crouch canceling as often as you can.

Let's Start with the DO NOTS


Never try to jab, tilt, or mess with Sheiks shield. Jab on can be easily punished by a multitude of options. She can wave dash back, simply shield grab (even if the jabs are spaced) dash attack between the jabs and so on.

A very important thing to take note on is Sheiks crouching. She can abuse it in many situations, Ganondorf CANNOT Jab, f tilt, f smash, grab, warlock punch or down smash her when she is in her crouching animation. A key note : I wish I had gotten recorded, if Sheik lands in her up b she falls into a crouching position which can avoid things for free. I often like to use reverse down b, stand where she is going to land and position yourself so she is going to land on top of you. Press down b, get the reverse hit and she is one dead little girl.

Do everything in your power to keep the game in the neutral. Wave dash back down tilt, waveland retreating f air and so on. Do everything in your power to keep her out of your zone, once she's inside your stock is gone with some extremely easy chain grabbing and tech chasing. Ganondorfs defensive options once someone is close is pitiful and predictable.

Also, a good mix up to try whenever you hit someones shield, an experienced player will know that "Most" Ganondorf mains will f air ~> jab to try to keep pressure and keep themselves safe. It's not very reliable against Sheik, she will wave dash out of shield and you will get destroyed. In the chance sheik continues to shield and rarely punishes the jab try to mix up the jab with an up b. F air ~> up b on shield. It's very simple mix up but it works wonders in most match ups.

Shield baiting is an amazing tool every Ganondorf main needs to start developing. Most players will shield a Ganondorf aerial, see him double jump and they know clearly another one is coming. Wave land out of the second jump and get that beautiful tomahawk grab or up b. ANY TIME you catch a player shielding in a situation they are going to continue doing it because it's safe. Make it un-safe for them by mixing in up b's it's under-used and it's good. Of course, it's not guaranteed it's a mix up don't do it too much or you will get bodied. Vs. Sheik, you need all the tricks you can get. She can easily tilt away almost all of your plans and put you in an awful position.


I feel like most people not just Ganondorf mains give sheik way too much respect whenever she is recovering, of course she has fast aerial she can use to react to your edge guards and sure it has invulnerability but the start of it does not. Sheik is very vulnerable at the start of her up b using an "EikelDrop" (Ledge drop down air) can be very effective. Also, if the sheik has predictable recovering patterns and you have a good idea when she's going to double jump, seriously run out there and through a reverse up air at her, b air ect. It is risky, it is dangerous but the profit is you getting a stock for hitting her trashy over rated recovery.

Do not be afraid to try to steal the ledge from her, Ganondorfs wave lands are fast enough to snatch the ledge out from under her and let her fall to her death, you just have to be spot on with your prediction of their movement and knowing that perfect moment to take that shot. Once you let the sheik you are fighting know you are going to go for the ledge if they stall on it they will be more inclined not to stall as much, so you'll see one up b stall then you will see them wavelanding/rolling on to the stage ect. Bait them out with a short waveland, know that they are going to go for the stage and continue reading them as they ar attempting to read you. It's all adaption folks, she will adapt to you trying to steal the ledge by getting on the stage fast and you can easily take advantage of it. Get inside your opponents and the match is yours

A lot of people have problems with her needle camping just go to a top platform, shield, go to the ledge ect. You have a lot of ways to get around her needles and if you can bait the needles out her needle animation really isn't that fast. Similar to how you can punish a peach for pulling a turnip you can punish a sheik for spamming her needle. Jump over the needles waveland towards her and space some aerials, if she shields that's a free up b and so on.

The match up is extremely mentally exhausting because it's very easy for sheik to take advantage in nearly every situation but Ganondorf has the tools with over come the challenge you just have to have a superior mental game than whomever you are playing against. At a higher level of play it's not so much about match ups as it is player vs. player mentality.


Stage Choice Advantage/Disadvantage

  • Yoshi's Story: Disadvantage 40/60
Taking a break will continue later this week.
All best of 5 sets with Moltov will be uploaded tonight.
 
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iRanch

Smash Cadet
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This is godlike. What characters are you going to do this for?

Whenever PoPO down throws you and Nana down airs, the BEST way out if to Smash DI down and away behind Popo. As soon as Nana hits you with the D air try your damnedest to get the smash DI down and away.
I thought I heard Wobbles say you should SDI up and it seemed to work against my set against UberIce, but he's the only ICs I've played to do it to me so i really have no experience with it.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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This is godlike. What characters are you going to do this for?



I thought I heard Wobbles say you should SDI up and it seemed to work against my set against UberIce, but he's the only ICs I've played to do it to me so i really have no experience with it.

I plan on doing this for every character I possibly can. I don't see how SDI-ing up would do anything to be honest I will test it next time I play against Uber Ice, I imagine it's about what you want to do, if you aim to smash DI up and jump out (if it actually works) then that is possible. I prefer to buffer roll out of down and away because popo flies past you is usually a very safe option.

Next videos / information will be against Fox / Falco vs.

DaShizWiz
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Updated Ganondorf notes / added ganondorf ditto stage disucssion

Added information about EACH individual move ganondorf does why they are good or why they are bad (in progress)

Added ice climber tip a lot of people may not know about.

included more ganondorf stuff in general


Will continue later. need a break.
 
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SYickX

Smash Cadet
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Dec 17, 2010
Messages
66
Location
Buffalo, NY
Hello King's of evil. Although it is my duty to depose you, I suppose I can lend a hand in the Link matchup. (I main Link and my Ganon isn't too shabby.)

Link/Ganon is an even matchup. Both characters can eliminate some of the other's fundamentals.

Link's grab outspaces all of Ganon aerials and Link gets nasty combos from grabs. Platforms are a bit more dangerous thanks to Link's extremely disjointed upair. (Only a perfect dair will cut through it.) Link doesn't have to trade with Ganon: Bombs don't trade, Link's fair is better than you might expect, upair juggles for 7 years, fsmash punishes unwise spacing.

Ganon has a chain grab on Link, some safe edgeguards, and (as usual) ruthlessly brutal combos. Ganon is also around the same speed as Link, which gives the big guy more of a level playing field.

Stages:

Yoshi's 65/35

Most Link's like Yoshi's, but Ganon still has the upper-hand here. Link dies really fast and that is very unusual for him. It also neuters Link's ability to chip up to 40% with projectiles. (I consider 40% the magic number for Link's combo game.) Be smart with your edge-guards so you don't get Spin-spiked. Keep in mind that the hookshot is one of the fastest ways in the game to get to the ledge.

Fountain 50/50

It's just large enough for Link to stay away, and Link's upsmash is actually useful on this stage during certain platform configurations. The platforms help Ganon swim through the sea of bombs and boomerangs. Link's combos are helped no more than Ganon's.

Battlefield 60/40

This stage works the same as fountain for Link except that his recovery options are much more limited. You'll be able to get a few earlier kills will he's firing his incredibly valuable hookshot. Bair, or Tipman him out of the end of the airdodge for a kill.

FD 15/85

You will eat 50% in projectiles before you get one hit. If Link lands a grab, uair, dair, dash attack, dsmash, double fsmash, close boomerang, close bomb, utilt, dtilt or you approach from too high, then you won't get back to the ground until your next stock.
If you get him, chain grab him for all he's worth. Try to catch bombs, but keep in mind that Link's tend to better at catching than most (ever better than Peaches).

Dreamland 30/70

Dreamland is a bigger FoD for Link's. Bigger is better for Link in this matchup. Despite those smooth wavelands, Link can still chuck garbage at you very safely. A boomerang or bomb can easily block a platform, then Link can be ready for a low approach or pull another bomb. Link also gets low hookshots on DL. These are much harder to Tipman, and give Link a much better chance at turning the edgeguard on you.

Pokémon Stadium 40/60

The smaller size (than DL) helps Ganon get those early kills he loves so dearly. Link loves this stage though. The neutral transformation is everything a good bomb/boomerang storm wants in a pair of platforms. You'll eat a lot of bombs, but Link won't have quite enough space to chip damage high enough. You should get about 2 chances per stock to make the fairy boy die quickly. Overall, Link gains some advantage here thanks to the width of the stage and the fact that Link really doesn't care about the transformations.

(Teams) Kongo Jungle 85/15

No hookshot. What kind of sick stage doesn't have walls? Link can't recover anymore, and Ganon just won't die off the top. Bombs and boomerangs don't reach those insane platforms either. If you do go here, expect the Link to switch to his secondary.

Overall: The biggest thing that will throw a Link is if you can deal with projectiles. Catch the bombs, don't deal with the boomerang by shielding. Get around it or hit it. Never forget that it comes back. Once you're in, Ganon takes the gold in the fist fight.

Take the Triforce of Courage first by finesse, then by force.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Something I wanted to mention about Down-Smash.

If you wavedash back and down-smash at the same time, the first hit of the down-smash will be where you just were. This can be useful if your opponent is keen on coming down right on your head, and you can just wavedash back and start styling on them. It's pretty easy to execute and I'm sure it has some nice followups.

EDIT: Also note that down-b has much more priority in a lot of matchups than side-b. I tend to use side-b for the pullback and for a good read, but sometimes my opponent puts out a hitbox that has more priority than the side-b, so I just get hit. Since down-b has more priority, and it also pulls back Ganon a bit, it's much more useful against, say, an f-smash happy Falco.
 
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Renth

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I had hoped to expand on this more quickly. Due to unforeseeable circumstances this project is going on a short hiatus.
 

FluffyLemons

Smash Rookie
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Mar 3, 2014
Messages
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This guide is awesome, definitely helped me out on the ICs match up. Can't wait for the space animal updates, those guys... eff those guys. With lightning boots.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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This guide is awesome, definitely helped me out on the ICs match up. Can't wait for the space animal updates, those guys... eff those guys. With lightning boots.
Space animals will be hard for me to do, I will be summoning Linguini/Spider_sense to help me with those because they are more experienced.

I have the knowledge, I just don't have the experience to go along with it.

I feel that's a problem with a lot of good players that never break the thresh-hold into greatness. Having knowledge and knowing how to use it are two completely different abilities.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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I moved and do not play with shiz anymore sorry for not completing what I wanted to do.

WIll do link next cause that's what i have access to
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
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Space animals will be hard for me to do, I will be summoning Linguini/Spider_sense to help me with those because they are more experienced.

I have the knowledge, I just don't have the experience to go along with it.

I feel that's a problem with a lot of good players that never break the thresh-hold into greatness. Having knowledge and knowing how to use it are two completely different abilities.
That's true. Theory and application are vastly different. It's unfortunate most of us don't get good practice against space animals and by good I mean clean, calculated, and exploitative play. Most people who play space animals never play safe enough, and those that do can expose Ganondorf pretty well.
 

Buttopia

Smash Rookie
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Feb 27, 2014
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Honestly the Falco and Marth matchups are those that I need the most help with, and even sheik and peach would be cool to have some tips for.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Motivation running out of steam on this one? lol
I got a job and don't live by shizwiz anymore, the focus of these guides were to have follow up friendlies with "Notable" players for each character since my free time is super limited now and the smash is play now is scarce I'd need to take a recording set up to a tournament and try to work it out from there.

So until I can figure something out this is on hiatus, though I have a nice foundation laid out if someone would like to continue the project.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Just curious, because I still have motivation to help with something like this and I believe jason and Ian would too. It really is a great idea. Job + gf doesn't mean smash doesn't exist, if you can play once a week you can keep fresh and get new ideas.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Just curious, because I still have motivation to help with something like this and I believe jason and Ian would too. It really is a great idea. Job + gf doesn't mean smash doesn't exist, if you can play once a week you can keep fresh and get new ideas.
I just need good players to record with
 

X WaNtEd X

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aight so i have a question about the ganon dittos. i always try to challenge fair with bair and it's supposed to work out, but the fair seems to outrange me or beat me most of the time. i wish i had footage to show. should i try using uair more in neutral? also how safe are waveland approaches in this matchup? i use them a lot vs peachs, marths and falcons but idk in the ditto mu.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
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We gotta keep this **** going. Come on Renth. Should we all collaborate on it and then compile the information for an update on these match-ups? Like, community effort?

Perfectly spaced bair beats fair I believe because of the way his hand is stretched out and is slightly down. You have to space it a little differently. Bair's bubble is attached to his wrist as he extends so it will catch his fist on the full extension unless you try to swoop the arm slightly over it. It's really tricky to space fair against a Ganondorf for a few reasons.

1. Bair will beat it in some instances.
2. Uair will beat it in speed if you both pick an option at the same time.
3. Ftilt can beat it if it's badly spaced.
4. Powershield->Jab can beat it if they are confident and run straight into you.
5. Getting shield-grabbed if they run into you again. This can lead to a CG and a death. Not fun.
6. They can FH dair you as you go for it.
7. They can jump back and then waveland into you and grab in the landing lag.

The commitment is WAY too high in a matchup about 2 reads and a death. Use auto-canceled bairs to zone and uair if you think he's going to go for fair. Don't try to beat his bair with it. Waveland approaches shouldn't work since they are pretty slow. This match up is really about not getting hit at all and zoning like crazy. If you land a grab just CG and finish it up with an aerial or tilt I believe. I haven't done the ditto in a while. Wavelands in this matchup shouldn't be used to approach. Use them to secure your combos and whatnot because once you hit Gdorf he's pretty helpless. But it's still a nice thing to do ONCE in a while to score a grab or land an aerial or something. I've gotten hit for it more than I've gotten profit for it. Just focus on zoning and getting the first hit. Ganondorf's attacks are pretty bad on shield so you can use your shield a lot in this matchup and powershield works really well against a lot of his stuff because the shield-stun to landing lag ratio is balls for him. If you light-shield he can't poke you with any attacks and it pushes you extremely far away and you reset immediately. There's a lot to learn in the ditto but it's all about NOT GETTING HIT. Other people you might want to get hit to get that sweet CC follow up, but not Gdorf.
 
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Renth

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I intend to keep going! I just need people to play with t.t

I really wanted this to be my major contribution to the community and it will get there, I just need "notable" players to play against maybe i'll talk to Gravy about coming over and doing captain falcon
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Lowell, MA
I intend to keep going! I just need people to play with t.t

I really wanted this to be my major contribution to the community and it will get there, I just need "notable" players to play against maybe i'll talk to Gravy about coming over and doing captain falcon
are you sure he'll do that? i'm pretty sure he would spend the entire time telling you to switch to falcon and how the matchup is hopeless for ganon.

jk but seriously, i think you should continue these with or without people to play with. the old matchup thread is really outdated and we need something new like this. i know i would benefit from whatever you put up.
 

Renth

Smash Hero
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Breaking one of my own rules of only using high level or notable players for the break downs due to overwhelming demand that I get back to work on this guide.

Sheik in progress.
 
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